Just as an additional observation: if you’re playing a Small mage, then their hit die is the normal one for monsters of their size.
There are also a few ways to break the usual archetype of the fragile mage, if that’s what you’re looking for. Taking the Tough feat for a wizard or sorcerer is on average equal to having a d10 hit dice.
*Puts on old wizard’s hat*. A d6? You have a d6?! Back in my day we only had a d4 and could only benefit from a +2 modifier and not until a 16 constitution. Furthermore, we only had 1 spell slot at first level and cantrips didn’t exist let alone at-will one’s. We were lucky to survive a battle with an alley cat if our one spell lost was used up for the day.
Sarcasm aside be thankful for the design of the game as it is now. The game was much less forgiving in previous editions. Making new characters was the norm. Once again, try to realize how good you have it with nearly 50 years of game design and improvements.
Just as an additional observation: if you’re playing a Small mage, then their hit die is the normal one for monsters of their size.
There are also a few ways to break the usual archetype of the fragile mage, if that’s what you’re looking for. Taking the Tough feat for a wizard or sorcerer is on average equal to having a d10 hit dice.
I like all your points! I've been doing some additional reading and stuff because I realized that I was being way too narrow in my understanding of the role of HP & HD.
My initial intent (that I didn't describe well) was to just understand the concept that, theoretically, all medium-sized PCs start their life out as Commoners which, based on the NPC stats (the only place that references Commoners), means they start their life out mechanically with a d8 as their HD. Since the NPC HD are based on their size, I took this mechanic as gospel for all people existing within D&D. So, then my mind went "well, if a Commoner became a Wizard, then why would their hit dice lower?" because I had it locked in that everything was based on character size. Since the Sorcerer and the Wizard are the only 2 who would have their hit dice "lower" from that perspective, I was wondering why make them "weaker" instead of treating a d8 as the standard and then having the other classes just go up from there.
Being fit isn’t the same as being tough. Cardio doesn’t help you take a punch.
A big thing to remember is hp are not just meat. It also includes things like, well, being able to take a hit, and dodging out of the way, getting tired, gritting your teeth through the pain. That’s where the bookishness come into play. Fighters are used to getting knocked around a bit. Mages are not.
So, I get now why a Barbarian would be the only one sitting at the d12 with these details and why a Wizard and Sorcerer would be lower.
I'm sorry about calling your idea silly, it was dumb. I reacted like you were treating that as THE way Bards exist. I'm not sure why I took it that way. I think my frustration with the way D&D works when it comes to Backgrounds and Classes is the lack of details in the PHB and the DMG that assist players conceptualize what a level 1 character looks like compared to where their character was in their background before the campaign started (some of this is addressed in the One D&D Playtest with their focus on creating a custom background). Since the idea is that the adventure starts at level 1 and that is the focus, I get the direction. I just wish that there was more to help out with bridging that gap because I think that would help players understand where their character comes from way more than alignment or the flaws, bonds, etc.
Like the idea of conceptualizing it as a "danger zone"!
Your explanation of AC was very helpful!
And I think my annoyance with limited character building comes from a few things:
That lack of connection from what a PC used to be and what they've become that I mentioned earlier. I know that a lot of things can be explored in flashbacks and stuff, but it would definitely help new players understand how strong a level 1 character is compared to a Commoner and compared to, say, what a level 15 character can do.
I definitely forgot about things like feats being used for narrative purposes like how ThelenyiWhinlawsaid about taking the Tough feat to explain the past benefits of a soldier Wizard. I think the One D&D Playtest adding 1st-level feats at character creation for everyone really helps this.
I know that Pathfinder and D&D are definitely 2 different systems, but the freedom in leveling up a class in Pathfinder, where you pick different feats from within options while leveling up, provides so many more options. I think this leaves D&D a little stale where a subclass gives you so little mechanically, comparatively.
And building on that, the classes and subclasses in D&D are so mechanically focused on combat that they don't seem to assist players (especially newer players) in being able to build on the roleplaying part of the game.
So, I think a lot of it really comes from the assumption that players understand party roles and how to translate combat focused features into roleplaying features. A DM can definitely help with this, but there is only so much you can do. I really like Keith Ammann's Live to Tell the Tale about this, but I think there really needs to be more in the PHB about basic strategy and why, for example, a Wizard would mechanically have a d6 as their hit dice. Especially, with so many new players coming into 5e. Honestly, I wish I would have gotten into D&D before 5e, because it really does feel I did myself a disservice lol.
Thanks for your input and your response (as well as everyone else's comments), it really helped my get my mind around things!
Sarcasm aside be thankful for the design of the game as it is now. The game was much less forgiving in previous editions. Making new characters was the norm. Once again, try to realize how good you have it with nearly 50 years of game design and improvements.
That's fair, but I can be thankful and still want to push things. Otherwise, we'd still be where we were before.
Sarcasm aside be thankful for the design of the game as it is now. The game was much less forgiving in previous editions. Making new characters was the norm. Once again, try to realize how good you have it with nearly 50 years of game design and improvements.
That's fair, but I can be thankful and still want to push things. Otherwise, we'd still be where we were before.
The key is know when to stop pushing or you’ll swing balance too far in the opposite direction. This version is the most balanced I’ve seen so far. Don’t get me wrong I think there are issues to be looked at, looking at you monk, but for the most part the wizard class is the best I’ve ever seen it in terms of survivability at low levels and continued growth at higher. Never stop testing, but a need to see when the boarder approaches is paramount.
I like this idea! Thanks!
*Puts on old wizard’s hat*. A d6? You have a d6?! Back in my day we only had a d4 and could only benefit from a +2 modifier and not until a 16 constitution. Furthermore, we only had 1 spell slot at first level and cantrips didn’t exist let alone at-will one’s. We were lucky to survive a battle with an alley cat if our one spell lost was used up for the day.
Sarcasm aside be thankful for the design of the game as it is now. The game was much less forgiving in previous editions. Making new characters was the norm. Once again, try to realize how good you have it with nearly 50 years of game design and improvements.
You’re welcome!
Hey, petepan3!
I like all your points! I've been doing some additional reading and stuff because I realized that I was being way too narrow in my understanding of the role of HP & HD.
This Quote from Xalthu earlier helped me:
So, I get now why a Barbarian would be the only one sitting at the d12 with these details and why a Wizard and Sorcerer would be lower.
So, I think a lot of it really comes from the assumption that players understand party roles and how to translate combat focused features into roleplaying features. A DM can definitely help with this, but there is only so much you can do. I really like Keith Ammann's Live to Tell the Tale about this, but I think there really needs to be more in the PHB about basic strategy and why, for example, a Wizard would mechanically have a d6 as their hit dice. Especially, with so many new players coming into 5e. Honestly, I wish I would have gotten into D&D before 5e, because it really does feel I did myself a disservice lol.
Thanks for your input and your response (as well as everyone else's comments), it really helped my get my mind around things!
That's fair, but I can be thankful and still want to push things. Otherwise, we'd still be where we were before.
The key is know when to stop pushing or you’ll swing balance too far in the opposite direction. This version is the most balanced I’ve seen so far. Don’t get me wrong I think there are issues to be looked at, looking at you monk, but for the most part the wizard class is the best I’ve ever seen it in terms of survivability at low levels and continued growth at higher. Never stop testing, but a need to see when the boarder approaches is paramount.
Without reading any of the discussion,
Would you prefer a d4?!
Because that's what it used to be, and you should be happy you get a d6 now =)
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