Magic initiate is a feat which does not say it doesn't use a spell slot yet it doesn't.
The wording of the two is distinct. Magic Initiate says you cast using the feat. Cartomancer just says you cast.
It actual says "you cast the spell within." A card is an item, and it's imbued with a spell which makes it into a magic item. General rule for magic items is that they don't use a spell slot to cast the spell unless otherwise stated. It says at the end "The card then immediately loses its magic" which means it's a consumable magic item.
This argument has already been made, read the entire thread.
The basic reasoning against: The feat doesn't state the card becomes a magic item, and therefore it doesn't follow the rules of magic items.
Magic initiate is a feat which does not say it doesn't use a spell slot yet it doesn't.
The wording of the two is distinct. Magic Initiate says you cast using the feat. Cartomancer just says you cast.
It actual says "you cast the spell within." A card is an item, and it's imbued with a spell which makes it into a magic item. General rule for magic items is that they don't use a spell slot to cast the spell unless otherwise stated. It says at the end "The card then immediately loses its magic" which means it's a consumable magic item.
This argument has already been made, read the entire thread.
The basic reasoning against: The feat doesn't state the card becomes a magic item, and therefore it doesn't follow the rules of magic items.
I've read it, and your summary isn't really missing anything from the argument. Essentially "it doesn't verbatim say it, therefore you're wrong." Not compelling. It works against you as well. You say it essentially shows you to temporarily learn the spell, but where did you get that from? Not the feat...
The issue is whether it uses components because it doesn't explicitly say it. The question then is which general rule does it follow. My argument is simple. A card is an item, the feat enables you to put magic in it, therefore it's a magical item. Your counter is "it doesn't use those exact words," but what is it otherwise? A common item imbued with magic that's nonmagical that loses its nonmagical magic after use? Does that actually make sense? Have you ever seen an effect that both teaches you a spell and makes you forget it after one use? Even runes from the rune shaper feat allow you to know the spell after use of the rune.
What is it if not a magic item? It's part of a feat, simple as that. That's all that needs to be said about it.
As for temporary access to the spell, you aren't learning the spell, you have a way to cast it once. That other feats and features don't grant that isn't a problem to be solved.
What is it if not a magic item? It's part of a feat, simple as that. That's all that needs to be said about it.
As for temporary access to the spell, you aren't learning the spell, you have a way to cast it once. That other feats and features don't grant that isn't a problem to be solved.
Wasn't your first response to me that it wasn't comparable to the magic initiate feat, because it doesn't say you cast it using the feat? And now you're saying it's not magic item because you cast it using the feat, not the item?
What is it if not a magic item? It's part of a feat, simple as that. That's all that needs to be said about it.
As for temporary access to the spell, you aren't learning the spell, you have a way to cast it once. That other feats and features don't grant that isn't a problem to be solved.
Wasn't your first response to me that it wasn't comparable to the Fey Touched feat, because it doesn't say you cast it using the feat? And now you're saying it's not magic item because you cast it using the feat, not the item?
The relevant point is that this is not a magic item, ergo whatever magic item rules say about this topic is irrelevant. It is a feat that for the purposes of flavor uses a trinket as a cosmetic element. The feat says “you can cast the spell” without any of the language found in feats that give non-slot casts, ergo by the RAW for spellcasting that means you need a slot.
What is it if not a magic item? It's part of a feat, simple as that. That's all that needs to be said about it.
As for temporary access to the spell, you aren't learning the spell, you have a way to cast it once. That other feats and features don't grant that isn't a problem to be solved.
Wasn't your first response to me that it wasn't comparable to the Fey Touched feat, because it doesn't say you cast it using the feat? And now you're saying it's not magic item because you cast it using the feat, not the item?
The relevant point is that this is not a magic item, ergo whatever magic item rules say about this topic is irrelevant. It is a feat that for the purposes of flavor uses a trinket as a cosmetic element. The feat says “you can cast the spell” without any of the language found in feats that give non-slot casts, ergo by the RAW for spellcasting that means you need a slot.
The problem is you could say the same for magic initiate. It says "you can cast the spell" not specifying components, yet it's clearly understood this doesn't use a spell slot.
Second, it doesn't just say you cast the spell. It says "you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within." It specified how the spell is cast, and this doesn't seem to be flavor since the card is first imbued, then used, then loses magic. That's materially relevant mechanics, not flavor.
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue. 1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact. 2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself. 3. The card then immediately loses it's magic. -> This is like losing a charge of whatever magic item that has charges. 4. I know that has been discussed already, but an item imbued with magic is a magic item, that is a fact, therefore those rules apply here. 5. Just like alexdohm9191 showed in his post and I basically already said in 2. even though it says cast, it doesn't mean it must use a spell slot.
My Theory behind this is it works like this: During the long rest he is able to regain more energy, than he can story in his body in the form of spell slots, which by the way are like charges of items, so during the long rest he keeps collecting the energy and since he can not store it inside him, he saves that energy in the card, so he has already paid the spell slot and still has all slots available. Yes this can get quite strong late game, but there are also magic items that grant you to restore a spell slot, or feats that let you use a spell a certain amount of times per day without needing a spell slot, therefor it ain't really that strong or unique, especially not in the early to mid-game, in comparison the ring of spell storing, filling it costs a slot but in exchange it does stay in it forever, not just for 8 hours. Yes it is limited to a lvl 5 spell, but you have a fight more than 8 hours after waking up, that makes the card useless while the ring still works. What I want to say is yes the feat lets you store a higher spell level, but it is less reliable, so that kinda puts them on nearly the same level for me.
Now, what I want to start a discussion about is this: Can I give the card to someone else so he can use it as an action like a scroll, or better like one of the tattoos, since there it is not necessary, that the user knows the spell, he doesn't even need to be a spell caster for it. I mean it says you can use it as a bonus action, but it doesn't say that only you can use that magic item, the only difference would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue. 1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact. 2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself. 3. The card then immediately loses it's magic. -> This is like losing a charge of whatever magic item that has charges. 4. I know that has been discussed already, but an item imbued with magic is a magic item, that is a fact, therefore those rules apply here. 5. Just like alexdohm9191 showed in his post and I basically already said in 2. even though it says cast, it doesn't mean it must use a spell slot.
My Theory behind this is it works like this: During the long rest he is able to regain more energy, than he can story in his body in the form of spell slots, which by the way are like charges of items, so during the long rest he keeps collecting the energy and since he can not store it inside him, he saves that energy in the card, so he has already paid the spell slot and still has all slots available. Yes this can get quite strong late game, but there are also magic items that grant you to restore a spell slot, or feats that let you use a spell a certain amount of times per day without needing a spell slot, therefor it ain't really that strong or unique, especially not in the early to mid-game, in comparison the ring of spell storing, filling it costs a slot but in exchange it does stay in it forever, not just for 8 hours. Yes it is limited to a lvl 5 spell, but you have a fight more than 8 hours after waking up, that makes the card useless while the ring still works. What I want to say is yes the feat lets you store a higher spell level, but it is less reliable, so that kinda puts them on nearly the same level for me.
Now, what I want to start a discussion about is this: Can I give the card to someone else so he can use it as an action like a scroll, or better like one of the tattoos, since there it is not necessary, that the user knows the spell, he doesn't even need to be a spell caster for it. I mean it says you can use it as a bonus action, but it doesn't say that only you can use that magic item, the only difference would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
That entire incorrect mouthful would have a few other implications. According to you:
-The spell cast through Cartomancer is impossible to counter -The spell cast through Cartomancer ignores expensive material components
Since the feat doesn't talk about ignoring the components, specify that you cast without a spell slot, or say anything about a magic item, it's not using magic item rules.
For the other question at the bottom: No. You can cast the spell that way, because it's cast through a feat, and that's all there is to it. Nothing in the feat gives you a chance to pass it to anyone else, so it doesn't do that.
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue. 1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact. 2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself. would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
Emphasis added. The feat is explicit. You are casting a spell. By default, that requires a spell slot at least equal to the level of the spell. There is nothing in the feat that allows you to cast without a spell slot.
Now what is wild is that you need to have the spell on your spell list and you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level, but I don't think you need to be high enough level to cast it in the class whose spell list you are taking it from. For example, Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 17 can use the feat to cast any Bard, Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell (as long as it is not added to the class list by a Bard/Druid/Cleric subclass. I think someone didn't think that through properly. At least it's only once a day.
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue. 1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact. 2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself. would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
Emphasis added. The feat is explicit. You are casting a spell. By default, that requires a spell slot at least equal to the level of the spell. There is nothing in the feat that allows you to cast without a spell slot.
Now what is wild is that you need to have the spell on your spell list and you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level, but I don't think you need to be high enough level to cast it in the class whose spell list you are taking it from. For example, Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 17 can use the feat to cast any Bard, Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell (as long as it is not added to the class list by a Bard/Druid/Cleric subclass. I think someone didn't think that through properly. At least it's only once a day.
I'd say it's fine enough since you still need to have the slot in general. Mizzium Apparatus does the same, and I have a build on a public server that's mostly Wizard but also Stars Druid and Cleric so it gets access to all three and is entirely reliable with it. Suffers from that ability requiring an attunement slot (which are always a valuable resource) and the casting stats being a little MAD (meaning my progression isn't as good as others). I'd say the once-a-day nature of this along with requiring a feat to do so (another limited resource in a build) is balancing enough for it.
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue. 1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact. 2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself. would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
Emphasis added. The feat is explicit. You are casting a spell. By default, that requires a spell slot at least equal to the level of the spell. There is nothing in the feat that allows you to cast without a spell slot.
Now what is wild is that you need to have the spell on your spell list and you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level, but I don't think you need to be high enough level to cast it in the class whose spell list you are taking it from. For example, Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 17 can use the feat to cast any Bard, Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell (as long as it is not added to the class list by a Bard/Druid/Cleric subclass. I think someone didn't think that through properly. At least it's only once a day.
I'd say it's fine enough since you still need to have the slot in general. Mizzium Apparatus does the same, and I have a build on a public server that's mostly Wizard but also Stars Druid and Cleric so it gets access to all three and is entirely reliable with it. Suffers from that ability requiring an attunement slot (which are always a valuable resource) and the casting stats being a little MAD (meaning my progression isn't as good as others). I'd say the once-a-day nature of this along with requiring a feat to do so (another limited resource in a build) is balancing enough for it.
There are some concerns about the balance of the Magic the Gathering options and normal D&D settings.
Compare the Apparatus (uncommon item) and theHat of Many Spells (very rare item and less versatile).
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue. 1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact. 2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself. would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
Emphasis added. The feat is explicit. You are casting a spell. By default, that requires a spell slot at least equal to the level of the spell. There is nothing in the feat that allows you to cast without a spell slot.
Now what is wild is that you need to have the spell on your spell list and you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level, but I don't think you need to be high enough level to cast it in the class whose spell list you are taking it from. For example, Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 17 can use the feat to cast any Bard, Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell (as long as it is not added to the class list by a Bard/Druid/Cleric subclass. I think someone didn't think that through properly. At least it's only once a day.
I'd say it's fine enough since you still need to have the slot in general. Mizzium Apparatus does the same, and I have a build on a public server that's mostly Wizard but also Stars Druid and Cleric so it gets access to all three and is entirely reliable with it. Suffers from that ability requiring an attunement slot (which are always a valuable resource) and the casting stats being a little MAD (meaning my progression isn't as good as others). I'd say the once-a-day nature of this along with requiring a feat to do so (another limited resource in a build) is balancing enough for it.
There are some concerns about the balance of the Magic the Gathering options and normal D&D settings.
Compare the Apparatus (uncommon item) and theHat of Many Spells (very rare item and less versatile).
While the Hat of Many Spells is less versatile (since it's wizard only), it allows you to bypass costly material components and the Arcana check required is lower (Apparatus is 10 + twice the spell's level, vs Hat's 10 + spell's level).
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This argument has already been made, read the entire thread.
The basic reasoning against: The feat doesn't state the card becomes a magic item, and therefore it doesn't follow the rules of magic items.
I've read it, and your summary isn't really missing anything from the argument. Essentially "it doesn't verbatim say it, therefore you're wrong." Not compelling. It works against you as well. You say it essentially shows you to temporarily learn the spell, but where did you get that from? Not the feat...
The issue is whether it uses components because it doesn't explicitly say it. The question then is which general rule does it follow. My argument is simple. A card is an item, the feat enables you to put magic in it, therefore it's a magical item. Your counter is "it doesn't use those exact words," but what is it otherwise? A common item imbued with magic that's nonmagical that loses its nonmagical magic after use? Does that actually make sense? Have you ever seen an effect that both teaches you a spell and makes you forget it after one use? Even runes from the rune shaper feat allow you to know the spell after use of the rune.
What is it if not a magic item? It's part of a feat, simple as that. That's all that needs to be said about it.
As for temporary access to the spell, you aren't learning the spell, you have a way to cast it once. That other feats and features don't grant that isn't a problem to be solved.
Wasn't your first response to me that it wasn't comparable to the magic initiate feat, because it doesn't say you cast it using the feat? And now you're saying it's not magic item because you cast it using the feat, not the item?
The relevant point is that this is not a magic item, ergo whatever magic item rules say about this topic is irrelevant. It is a feat that for the purposes of flavor uses a trinket as a cosmetic element. The feat says “you can cast the spell” without any of the language found in feats that give non-slot casts, ergo by the RAW for spellcasting that means you need a slot.
The problem is you could say the same for magic initiate. It says "you can cast the spell" not specifying components, yet it's clearly understood this doesn't use a spell slot.
Second, it doesn't just say you cast the spell. It says "you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within." It specified how the spell is cast, and this doesn't seem to be flavor since the card is first imbued, then used, then loses magic. That's materially relevant mechanics, not flavor.
Now with 2024 out in the blue the cartomancer feat is marked as compatible and not Legacy.
But is there any new way to 'interpret' this feat?
Hidden Ace. When you finish a long rest, you can choose one spell from your class’s spell list and imbue that spell into a card. The chosen spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and it must be a level for which you have spell slots. The card remains imbued with this spell for 8 hours. While the card is imbued with the spell, you can use a bonus action to flourish the card and cast the spell within. The card then immediately loses its magic.
So let's break this down to a point where there should be no more discussions about the spell slot issue.
1. you imbue the spell into the card -> Spell is inside the card that is a fact.
2. flourish the card and cast the spell within -> You're not really casting the spell, you're basically just releasing what is inside, the only thing u actually cast is the release and direction, not the spell itself.
3. The card then immediately loses it's magic. -> This is like losing a charge of whatever magic item that has charges.
4. I know that has been discussed already, but an item imbued with magic is a magic item, that is a fact, therefore those rules apply here.
5. Just like alexdohm9191 showed in his post and I basically already said in 2. even though it says cast, it doesn't mean it must use a spell slot.
My Theory behind this is it works like this: During the long rest he is able to regain more energy, than he can story in his body in the form of spell slots, which by the way are like charges of items, so during the long rest he keeps collecting the energy and since he can not store it inside him, he saves that energy in the card, so he has already paid the spell slot and still has all slots available.
Yes this can get quite strong late game, but there are also magic items that grant you to restore a spell slot, or feats that let you use a spell a certain amount of times per day without needing a spell slot, therefor it ain't really that strong or unique, especially not in the early to mid-game, in comparison the ring of spell storing, filling it costs a slot but in exchange it does stay in it forever, not just for 8 hours. Yes it is limited to a lvl 5 spell, but you have a fight more than 8 hours after waking up, that makes the card useless while the ring still works.
What I want to say is yes the feat lets you store a higher spell level, but it is less reliable, so that kinda puts them on nearly the same level for me.
Now, what I want to start a discussion about is this:
Can I give the card to someone else so he can use it as an action like a scroll, or better like one of the tattoos, since there it is not necessary, that the user knows the spell, he doesn't even need to be a spell caster for it.
I mean it says you can use it as a bonus action, but it doesn't say that only you can use that magic item, the only difference would be that other players would need an action to use it, or not? I mean, for everyone else it basically should be, a magic item, that is only useable for a short time. (8 hours)
That entire incorrect mouthful would have a few other implications. According to you:
-The spell cast through Cartomancer is impossible to counter
-The spell cast through Cartomancer ignores expensive material components
Since the feat doesn't talk about ignoring the components, specify that you cast without a spell slot, or say anything about a magic item, it's not using magic item rules.
For the other question at the bottom: No. You can cast the spell that way, because it's cast through a feat, and that's all there is to it. Nothing in the feat gives you a chance to pass it to anyone else, so it doesn't do that.
Emphasis added. The feat is explicit. You are casting a spell. By default, that requires a spell slot at least equal to the level of the spell. There is nothing in the feat that allows you to cast without a spell slot.
Now what is wild is that you need to have the spell on your spell list and you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level, but I don't think you need to be high enough level to cast it in the class whose spell list you are taking it from. For example, Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 17 can use the feat to cast any Bard, Druid, Cleric, or Wizard spell (as long as it is not added to the class list by a Bard/Druid/Cleric subclass. I think someone didn't think that through properly. At least it's only once a day.
How to add Tooltips.
I'd say it's fine enough since you still need to have the slot in general. Mizzium Apparatus does the same, and I have a build on a public server that's mostly Wizard but also Stars Druid and Cleric so it gets access to all three and is entirely reliable with it. Suffers from that ability requiring an attunement slot (which are always a valuable resource) and the casting stats being a little MAD (meaning my progression isn't as good as others). I'd say the once-a-day nature of this along with requiring a feat to do so (another limited resource in a build) is balancing enough for it.
There are some concerns about the balance of the Magic the Gathering options and normal D&D settings.
Compare the Apparatus (uncommon item) and theHat of Many Spells (very rare item and less versatile).
How to add Tooltips.
While the Hat of Many Spells is less versatile (since it's wizard only), it allows you to bypass costly material components and the Arcana check required is lower (Apparatus is 10 + twice the spell's level, vs Hat's 10 + spell's level).