I have a player who is thinking of playing a bugbear wizard. As we read the wording of Surprise Attack, the 2d6 damage would apply to all attack rolls, including spells such as magic missile, scorching ray, or the warlocks eldritch blast
I'm wondering if that is "as intended"? My thoughts are this extra damage is more due to the bugbears "long-limbed" and "powerful build" traits than anything, which would suggest this damage should not apply to spells, and not even to bows or crossbows, but would only apply to melee and thrown weapon attacks
I can certainly go that route, but I'd rather go RAI, whatever that may be
The 2d6 damage applies to all attack rolls, including spells such as Scorching Ray and Eldritch Blast. Not Magic Missile, because it doesn't include any attack rolls.
If it were RAI for Surprise Attack to only apply to melee weapon attacks, it would have been the simplest thing in the world for that to just be written. I mean, sometimes the designers slip up in converting RAI into RAW, but definitely not that badly.
Bugbear's Surprise Attack is not because of their Long-Limbed or Powerful Build traits, is because of their Surprise Attack trait, which says that they do more damage when they get the upper hand and doesn't say anything about that only applying to hitting people with sticks. These features are independent, as is almost always the case.
It's fine if you want Surprise Attack to only apply to melee weapon attacks, as long as you tell the player before they decide to go with the race, but don't be under any illusions about what is RAI.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Generally it would be bad design to create an entire playable race that is heavily biased to one style of play.
As for Bugbear's Surprise Attack feature it applies to all hits from attack rolls made against a creature that has not yet had its first turn in combat. If WotC had intended it to apply to only weapon attacks or melee weapon attacks they would have said 'weapon attack' or 'melee weapon attack' instead of 'attack roll'.
Also note that a spell like Magic Missile or Fireball do not involve an attack roll, and this they would not benefit from Bugbear's Surprise Attack feature.
Bugbear's Surprise Attack is not because of their Long-Limbed or Powerful Build traits, is because of their Surprise Attack trait, which says that they do more damage when they get the upper hand and doesn't say anything about that only applying to hitting people with sticks. These features are independent, as is almost always the case.
"A" is because "A" will win you nothing in any debate
any creature can have the upper hand at the start of a fight, so something about bugbears must be special to give them the extra damage, otherwise anyone who has 'surprise' should do something for extra damage... the alternative is that the trait was just arbitrarily given willy-nilly... if so, then... oooookay? but i hope thought goes into the 'why' of what makes something different, as well as the 'what'
As for magic missile... just because it is an auto-hit does not mean it is not an attack ... but it doesn't really matter, except as being a bad example for the original question... at our table, we've converted MM to a cantrip that requires an attack roll, so that it can be the wizards bread and butter attacks... having to burn a 6th level spell slot (or higher) to throw a boatload of tiny missiles is just not right! ;)
"A" is because "A" will win you nothing in any debate
any creature can have the upper hand at the start of a fight, so something about bugbears must be special to give them the extra damage, otherwise anyone who has 'surprise' should do something for extra damage... the alternative is that the trait was just arbitrarily given willy-nilly... if so, then... oooookay? but i hope thought goes into the 'why' of what makes something different, as well as the 'what'
Mechanically, "A" is because "A". Without that basis, every rule in the game would fall apart. You can add whatever fluff or lore reason to attach to the written game mechanics, but in this case the game mechanic states that any and all (and only) attack rolls a bugbear makes will apply 2d6 extra damage, so long as it's against a creature that hasn't acted in initiative yet.
Consider it opportunity for roleplaying. Why does this particular bugbear do more damage? Maybe a rogue does it because of the longer arms, but maybe a wizard bugbear does extra damage because they have a magic gem embedded into their hand from some backstory shenanigans. The point is that for this instance, you can't apply lore as if it were part of the mechanics.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Bugbear's Surprise Attack is not because of their Long-Limbed or Powerful Build traits, is because of their Surprise Attack trait, which says that they do more damage when they get the upper hand and doesn't say anything about that only applying to hitting people with sticks. These features are independent, as is almost always the case.
"A" is because "A" will win you nothing in any debate
I don't think "A" is because "B and C" when it clearly isn't will win you much more.
any creature can have the upper hand at the start of a fight, so something about bugbears must be special to give them the extra damage, otherwise anyone who has 'surprise' should do something for extra damage... the alternative is that the trait was just arbitrarily given willy-nilly... if so, then... oooookay? but i hope thought goes into the 'why' of what makes something different, as well as the 'what'
Fey magic.
As for magic missile... just because it is an auto-hit does not mean it is not an attack ... but it doesn't really matter, except as being a bad example for the original question... at our table, we've converted MM to a cantrip that requires an attack roll, so that it can be the wizards bread and butter attacks... having to burn a 6th level spell slot (or higher) to throw a boatload of tiny missiles is just not right! ;)
Just because it is an auto-hit does mean it is not an attack. Attacks involve attack rolls. If it doesn't have an attack roll, it isn't an attack. Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, so it isn't an attack. There's a Sage Advice Column thingey on this, but I don't have the time to go find it at the moment, so maybe go look for that yourself.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Niether version of Bugbear's Surprise Attack in Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse or Volo's Guide to Monsters place any restriction on the attack type, it can be weapon, spell, melee or ranged.
Bugbear's Surprise Attack is not because of their Long-Limbed or Powerful Build traits, is because of their Surprise Attack trait, which says that they do more damage when they get the upper hand and doesn't say anything about that only applying to hitting people with sticks. These features are independent, as is almost always the case.
"A" is because "A" will win you nothing in any debate
any creature can have the upper hand at the start of a fight, so something about bugbears must be special to give them the extra damage, otherwise anyone who has 'surprise' should do something for extra damage... the alternative is that the trait was just arbitrarily given willy-nilly... if so, then... oooookay? but i hope thought goes into the 'why' of what makes something different, as well as the 'what'
As for magic missile... just because it is an auto-hit does not mean it is not an attack ... but it doesn't really matter, except as being a bad example for the original question... at our table, we've converted MM to a cantrip that requires an attack roll, so that it can be the wizards bread and butter attacks... having to burn a 6th level spell slot (or higher) to throw a boatload of tiny missiles is just not right! ;)
It was possibly given because Bugbear's can identify the most vulnerable spots on a less prepared opponent and can then direct their attacks, whatever those attacks may be, to strike those vulnerable spots thus doing more damage in the first round of combat against creatures that have not yet taken a turn. RAW, there is no connection between being long-limbed (10' reach) or having a powerful build or being able to move through smaller spaces than normal without squeezing. Each is a completely independent ability and all are intended as written (as far as any of us know - there certainly hasn't been any errata and earlier published versions of the bugbear have a similar feature).
By the way, the usual version of magic missile is strong enough to justify a spell slot in my opinion. First, it can not miss. Second, it does force damage which is rarely resisted and third it does its damage in three separate and discrete missiles that can be directed at the same or different targets. Each of those missiles will cause a separate concentration saving throw for a spell caster concentrating on a spell. In my opinion, that combination is well worth a spell slot but if you don't mind giving several constitution saving throws for each casting of a Magic missile cantrip then that is fine for your game. Unless you have house ruled other changes to magic missile?
Each of those missiles will cause a separate concentration saving throw for a spell caster concentrating on a spell.
If the missiles hit machine gun style, I might agree with that. But since the spell explicitly says the missiles hit simultaneously, each creature hit would make one concentration check.
By the way, the usual version of magic missile is strong enough to justify a spell slot in my opinion.
Also, I'm old school, been playing since before D&D became AD&D. The original MM scaled, 1 additional missile on every odd level, I forget if it maxed out at 9 or 10 missiles. So modifying it to a cantrip that scales felt right, making it the iconic mage spell it should be... warlocks have their eldritch blasts, wizards get missiles... 2 missiles at lvls 1, 5, 11 and 17, requiring an attack roll... it's slightly more powerful than Toll the Dead, but not so much that it's OP. Agonizing Blast with a +2 modifier will beat it.
All of this is totally outside my original question. We agree with how we interpret RAW... I question the intent...
a bugbear lvl 20 fighter would attack 4 times, action surge and attack 4 more times, for and additional 16d6 Surprise Attack damage
a bugbear lvl 2 fighter lvl 18 wizard could scorching ray with a 9th lvl slot (10 rays), action surge scorching ray with an 8th lvl slot (9 rays), for an additional 38d6 Surprise Attack damage
If that's the intent, great, good use of spell slots! But if no one considered the impact of a spellcaster with that trait..?
All of this is totally outside my original question. We agree with how we interpret RAW... I question the intent...
a bugbear lvl 20 fighter would attack 4 times, action surge and attack 4 more times, for and additional 16d6 Surprise Attack damage
a bugbear lvl 2 fighter lvl 18 wizard could scorching ray with a 9th lvl slot (10 rays), action surge scorching ray with an 8th lvl slot (9 rays), for an additional 38d6 Surprise Attack damage
If that's the intent, great, good use of spell slots! But if no one considered the impact of a spellcaster with that trait..?
They probably considered it, but they didn't care, because said Wizard could have instead used that 9th level slot for Meteor Swarm and that 8th level slot for all manner of things.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
They probably considered it, but they didn't care, because said Wizard could have instead used that 9th level slot for Meteor Swarm and that 8th level slot for all manner of things.
That is fine, but understand that what the writers intended is not something that can be answered on these forums.
Only Dungeons and Dragons design team can truly answer questions of intent, usually in the form of a Q&A in the Sage Advice Compendium or in social media posts by Jeremy Crawford or Mike Mearls. While there has been much discussion about Bugbear builds in the community and questions related to the Surprise Attack feature asked and answered on social media, I did not find anything from WotC regarding the Surprise Attack feature and spell attacks. Every discussion I see takes the rule at face value and runs with the RAW interpretation.
If it helps though here is some context. Like any other book, the published rules for D&D go through an editorial process meant to catch mistakes. We are all human though and mistakes can and do make it through this process. For this WotC will make changes to fix errors after a book is published so that subsequent printings do not contain the mistake. When this happens WotC issues an errata to announce the change to anyone who may have purchased a copy before the error was corrected.
The Bugbear was first published in Volo's Guide to Monsters in November of 2016, here is what that version of Surprise Attack looked like: "If you surprise a creature and hit it with an attack on your first turn in combat, the attack deals an extra 2d6 damage to it. You can use this trait only once per combat."
Here we can see the old version was more restrictive. It requires that the target be surprised, not just that your turn came up before theirs. It also can only be used once per combat. However it also does not specify requiring a weapon of any variety. While the Bugbear in Volo's did get an errata in 2021, it was just to remove its Alignment trait. - https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/VGtM-Errata.pdf
Bugbears, along with many other races, were updated with the publication of Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse in May of 2022 which gives us its current form. Note that the changes they made to Surprise Attack made it relevant more frequently, and more potent when it is relevant. Also they did tweak the language from "... hit it with an attack ..." to "... hit a creature with an attack roll ..." to avoid the ambiguity of what counts as an attack (See various social media posts about what counts as an attack: https://www.sageadvice.eu/hex-atttack-roll/). And yet they did not add any language to restrict the feature to only weapon attacks or melee weapon attacks.
So we have a race that has existed for over seven years, been through multiple review cycles, and every version of Surprise Attack that has ever existed has applied to all attacks. So at this point if the writers did not intend for it I would be very surprised indeed.
Thankfully what the writers intended is irrelevant, at your table you can play it however you want and however works best for your group. My advise would be to simply talk about it with your group if one of your players is interested in playing a Bugbear, RAW and RAI be damned.
I just came across this flavor discussion while looking for clarification on the mechanics of Sneak Attack (which I did get, thanks everybody!) and found it interesting. If I may give another possible flavor head-canon for Sneak Attack, perhaps it’s more of an ambush instinct kind of thing where the bugbear is more keenly targeting their prey before combat gets into the scrum of things. As I understand it, they are after all a race bred for war and for a specific role within war bands.
Another good way to abuse this mechanic is with an upcast Scorching Ray. Each beam gets the extra 2d6, and upcasting just gives you more beams. A level 9 Scorching Ray would have a total damage capability of 44d6 - 154 on average.
If you want to get really nasty, you could cast a level 9 Conjure Minor Elementals before combat and then cast a level 8 Scorching Ray to obliterate the world on your first round.
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I have a player who is thinking of playing a bugbear wizard. As we read the wording of Surprise Attack, the 2d6 damage would apply to all attack rolls, including spells such as magic missile, scorching ray, or the warlocks eldritch blast
I'm wondering if that is "as intended"? My thoughts are this extra damage is more due to the bugbears "long-limbed" and "powerful build" traits than anything, which would suggest this damage should not apply to spells, and not even to bows or crossbows, but would only apply to melee and thrown weapon attacks
I can certainly go that route, but I'd rather go RAI, whatever that may be
The 2d6 damage applies to all attack rolls, including spells such as Scorching Ray and Eldritch Blast. Not Magic Missile, because it doesn't include any attack rolls.
If it were RAI for Surprise Attack to only apply to melee weapon attacks, it would have been the simplest thing in the world for that to just be written. I mean, sometimes the designers slip up in converting RAI into RAW, but definitely not that badly.
Bugbear's Surprise Attack is not because of their Long-Limbed or Powerful Build traits, is because of their Surprise Attack trait, which says that they do more damage when they get the upper hand and doesn't say anything about that only applying to hitting people with sticks. These features are independent, as is almost always the case.
It's fine if you want Surprise Attack to only apply to melee weapon attacks, as long as you tell the player before they decide to go with the race, but don't be under any illusions about what is RAI.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Generally it would be bad design to create an entire playable race that is heavily biased to one style of play.
As for Bugbear's Surprise Attack feature it applies to all hits from attack rolls made against a creature that has not yet had its first turn in combat. If WotC had intended it to apply to only weapon attacks or melee weapon attacks they would have said 'weapon attack' or 'melee weapon attack' instead of 'attack roll'.
Also note that a spell like Magic Missile or Fireball do not involve an attack roll, and this they would not benefit from Bugbear's Surprise Attack feature.
"A" is because "A" will win you nothing in any debate
any creature can have the upper hand at the start of a fight, so something about bugbears must be special to give them the extra damage, otherwise anyone who has 'surprise' should do something for extra damage... the alternative is that the trait was just arbitrarily given willy-nilly... if so, then... oooookay? but i hope thought goes into the 'why' of what makes something different, as well as the 'what'
As for magic missile... just because it is an auto-hit does not mean it is not an attack ... but it doesn't really matter, except as being a bad example for the original question... at our table, we've converted MM to a cantrip that requires an attack roll, so that it can be the wizards bread and butter attacks... having to burn a 6th level spell slot (or higher) to throw a boatload of tiny missiles is just not right! ;)
Mechanically, "A" is because "A". Without that basis, every rule in the game would fall apart. You can add whatever fluff or lore reason to attach to the written game mechanics, but in this case the game mechanic states that any and all (and only) attack rolls a bugbear makes will apply 2d6 extra damage, so long as it's against a creature that hasn't acted in initiative yet.
Consider it opportunity for roleplaying. Why does this particular bugbear do more damage? Maybe a rogue does it because of the longer arms, but maybe a wizard bugbear does extra damage because they have a magic gem embedded into their hand from some backstory shenanigans. The point is that for this instance, you can't apply lore as if it were part of the mechanics.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I don't think "A" is because "B and C" when it clearly isn't will win you much more.
Fey magic.
Just because it is an auto-hit does mean it is not an attack. Attacks involve attack rolls. If it doesn't have an attack roll, it isn't an attack. Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll, so it isn't an attack. There's a Sage Advice Column thingey on this, but I don't have the time to go find it at the moment, so maybe go look for that yourself.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Niether version of Bugbear's Surprise Attack in Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse or Volo's Guide to Monsters place any restriction on the attack type, it can be weapon, spell, melee or ranged.
It was possibly given because Bugbear's can identify the most vulnerable spots on a less prepared opponent and can then direct their attacks, whatever those attacks may be, to strike those vulnerable spots thus doing more damage in the first round of combat against creatures that have not yet taken a turn. RAW, there is no connection between being long-limbed (10' reach) or having a powerful build or being able to move through smaller spaces than normal without squeezing. Each is a completely independent ability and all are intended as written (as far as any of us know - there certainly hasn't been any errata and earlier published versions of the bugbear have a similar feature).
By the way, the usual version of magic missile is strong enough to justify a spell slot in my opinion. First, it can not miss. Second, it does force damage which is rarely resisted and third it does its damage in three separate and discrete missiles that can be directed at the same or different targets. Each of those missiles will cause a separate concentration saving throw for a spell caster concentrating on a spell. In my opinion, that combination is well worth a spell slot but if you don't mind giving several constitution saving throws for each casting of a Magic missile cantrip then that is fine for your game. Unless you have house ruled other changes to magic missile?
If the missiles hit machine gun style, I might agree with that. But since the spell explicitly says the missiles hit simultaneously, each creature hit would make one concentration check.
Also, I'm old school, been playing since before D&D became AD&D. The original MM scaled, 1 additional missile on every odd level, I forget if it maxed out at 9 or 10 missiles. So modifying it to a cantrip that scales felt right, making it the iconic mage spell it should be... warlocks have their eldritch blasts, wizards get missiles... 2 missiles at lvls 1, 5, 11 and 17, requiring an attack roll... it's slightly more powerful than Toll the Dead, but not so much that it's OP. Agonizing Blast with a +2 modifier will beat it.
All of this is totally outside my original question. We agree with how we interpret RAW... I question the intent...
a bugbear lvl 20 fighter would attack 4 times, action surge and attack 4 more times, for and additional 16d6 Surprise Attack damage
a bugbear lvl 2 fighter lvl 18 wizard could scorching ray with a 9th lvl slot (10 rays), action surge scorching ray with an 8th lvl slot (9 rays), for an additional 38d6 Surprise Attack damage
If that's the intent, great, good use of spell slots! But if no one considered the impact of a spellcaster with that trait..?
They probably considered it, but they didn't care, because said Wizard could have instead used that 9th level slot for Meteor Swarm and that 8th level slot for all manner of things.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I admit, ya gotta love the Swarm
That is fine, but understand that what the writers intended is not something that can be answered on these forums.
Only Dungeons and Dragons design team can truly answer questions of intent, usually in the form of a Q&A in the Sage Advice Compendium or in social media posts by Jeremy Crawford or Mike Mearls. While there has been much discussion about Bugbear builds in the community and questions related to the Surprise Attack feature asked and answered on social media, I did not find anything from WotC regarding the Surprise Attack feature and spell attacks. Every discussion I see takes the rule at face value and runs with the RAW interpretation.
If it helps though here is some context. Like any other book, the published rules for D&D go through an editorial process meant to catch mistakes. We are all human though and mistakes can and do make it through this process. For this WotC will make changes to fix errors after a book is published so that subsequent printings do not contain the mistake. When this happens WotC issues an errata to announce the change to anyone who may have purchased a copy before the error was corrected.
The Bugbear was first published in Volo's Guide to Monsters in November of 2016, here is what that version of Surprise Attack looked like:
"If you surprise a creature and hit it with an attack on your first turn in combat, the attack deals an extra 2d6 damage to it. You can use this trait only once per combat."
Here we can see the old version was more restrictive. It requires that the target be surprised, not just that your turn came up before theirs. It also can only be used once per combat. However it also does not specify requiring a weapon of any variety. While the Bugbear in Volo's did get an errata in 2021, it was just to remove its Alignment trait. - https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/VGtM-Errata.pdf
Bugbears, along with many other races, were updated with the publication of Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse in May of 2022 which gives us its current form. Note that the changes they made to Surprise Attack made it relevant more frequently, and more potent when it is relevant. Also they did tweak the language from "... hit it with an attack ..." to "... hit a creature with an attack roll ..." to avoid the ambiguity of what counts as an attack (See various social media posts about what counts as an attack: https://www.sageadvice.eu/hex-atttack-roll/). And yet they did not add any language to restrict the feature to only weapon attacks or melee weapon attacks.
So we have a race that has existed for over seven years, been through multiple review cycles, and every version of Surprise Attack that has ever existed has applied to all attacks. So at this point if the writers did not intend for it I would be very surprised indeed.
Thankfully what the writers intended is irrelevant, at your table you can play it however you want and however works best for your group. My advise would be to simply talk about it with your group if one of your players is interested in playing a Bugbear, RAW and RAI be damned.
I just came across this flavor discussion while looking for clarification on the mechanics of Sneak Attack (which I did get, thanks everybody!) and found it interesting. If I may give another possible flavor head-canon for Sneak Attack, perhaps it’s more of an ambush instinct kind of thing where the bugbear is more keenly targeting their prey before combat gets into the scrum of things. As I understand it, they are after all a race bred for war and for a specific role within war bands.
Another good way to abuse this mechanic is with an upcast Scorching Ray. Each beam gets the extra 2d6, and upcasting just gives you more beams. A level 9 Scorching Ray would have a total damage capability of 44d6 - 154 on average.
If you want to get really nasty, you could cast a level 9 Conjure Minor Elementals before combat and then cast a level 8 Scorching Ray to obliterate the world on your first round.