Yesterday, I made a mistake while ruling about casting spells and now I'm feeling disappointed in myself đ˘
I usually try to be precise about actions, bonus actions and reactions when a spell is involved. However, it appears I overlooked the details on page 141 of the DMG, where it explicitly states that the user is casting the spell, not the magic item (emphasis mine):
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item, often by expending charges from it. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
In this specific case, the player has a magical sword. While holding the sword, he can use a bonus action to cast Hunter's Mark. He did that, but also cast Silence in the same turn.
So, if I'm understanding now better the rules, this kind of things are not allowed if we follow the Casting a Spell rules (PHB, p. 202).
I believe my misunderstanding stemmed from assuming that activating an item is either an action or a bonus action, unrelated to spells in any way (until yesterday).
Yesterday, I made a mistake while ruling about casting spells and now I'm feeling disappointed in myself đ˘
Don't be disappointed. Be proud and embrace the fact you are consistently reviewing the game rules and reaching out to other members of a game community to get input on how to rule on situations presented during a game. There is audio and video evidence of game developers, professional game streamers, and participants of the hobby with years of experience who rule incorrectly. The only people who haven't ruled correctly are people who don't assume the function of (G)DM'ing. Congratulate yourself on reaching out, getting educated, and increasing knowledge about the game.
An yes, your interpretation is accurate. The magical item allows the character access to the spell without having the use a spell slot, and unless stated, the caster does not have to meet the spells components to cast; the character must meet the requirements (i.e. spend an Action to, expend charges) of the magical item in order to cast. From there you should follow the rules of Spell Casting as laid out in the PHB.
True. I also noticed something unrelated but no less important (in case it might come up in your game at some point). Part of the descriptive bubble text also says:
and requires no components unless the item's description says otherwise.
Does this mean that casting a spell from an item is the exact same as a sorcerer's subtle metamagic, requiring no components, verbal, somatic, or material? And therefore being undetectable and not a valid target for the Counterspell spell?
This is a very interesting question, and I think there are no official rules about this specific case.
In my opinion, it could be ruled by rules similar to the Subtle Spell metamagic. However, I also believe it could depend on the specific magic item itself. For example, something like this could be detected by you and then trigger the counterspell:
The user needs cleary to press a button to activate the item
A command word or phrase that must be spoken for an item to work
True. I also noticed something unrelated but no less important (in case it might come up in your game at some point). Part of the descriptive bubble text also says:
and requires no components unless the item's description says otherwise.
Does this mean that casting a spell from an item is the exact same as a sorcerer's subtle metamagic, requiring no components, verbal, somatic, or material? And therefore being undetectable and not a valid target for the Counterspell spell?
No, though it might. Subtle Spell by design can be more deceptive since the caster can demonstrate the appearance they are engaging in another act while the spell is being cast. With using a magic item, the character bearing the item must use an act (i.e. use their Action, BA, reaction) so they can cast the spell through the item. This means the DM can rule the casting of the spell is obvious to a target because the character is pointing a Wand of Magic Missiles, the character embraces a ruby that is now glowing and emits bright light for 20 feet, or ancient incantations pour out of the sword the character has in their grasp. It comes down to how the DM wants to rule the act of expending charges; it might be more obvious to targets when compared to a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell. But you are not wrong in that it could be possible for the spell to cast without detection by the target.
Yesterday, I made a mistake while ruling about casting spells and now I'm feeling disappointed in myself đ˘
Don't be disappointed. Be proud and embrace the fact you are consistently reviewing the game rules and reaching out to other members of a game community to get input on how to rule on situations presented during a game. There is audio and video evidence of game developers, professional game streamers, and participants of the hobby with years of experience who rule incorrectly. The only people who haven't ruled correctly are people who don't assume the function of (G)DM'ing. Congratulate yourself on reaching out, getting educated, and increasing knowledge about the game.
An yes, your interpretation is accurate. The magical item allows the character access to the spell without having the use a spell slot, and unless stated, the caster does not have to meet the spells components to cast; the character must meet the requirements (i.e. spend an Action to, expend charges) of the magical item in order to cast. From there you should follow the rules of Spell Casting as laid out in the PHB.
Let me just respond to say: thank you! Really, thank you very much for your kind words â¤ď¸
I always try to do my best, and after each session, I typically review to confirm if I handled certain situations well. There are many details to consider, especially when it comes to casting spells.
I started playing DnD 5e last year, so I still need more experience, perhaps.
True. I also noticed something unrelated but no less important (in case it might come up in your game at some point). Part of the descriptive bubble text also says:
and requires no components unless the item's description says otherwise.
Does this mean that casting a spell from an item is the exact same as a sorcerer's subtle metamagic, requiring no components, verbal, somatic, or material? And therefore being undetectable and not a valid target for the Counterspell spell?
This is a very interesting question, and I think there are no official rules about this specific case.
In my opinion, it could be ruled by rules similar to the Subtle Spell metamagic. However, I also believe it could depend on the specific magic item itself. For example, something like this could be detected by you and then trigger the counterspell:
The user needs cleary to press a button to activate the item
A command word or phrase that must be spoken for an item to work
The rules for casting the spell from an item are very specific.
"and requires no components unless the item's description says otherwise"
No components explicitly means no verbal, somatic or material components since that is exactly what components means in the rules. Unless the magic item description says otherwise the spell requires no components. A spell requiring no components can not be detected when being cast and thus can not be used as a trigger for counterspell.
As you mention though, if a specific magic item requires a command word or other specified verbal, somatic, or material requirement to cast the spell then that component would be noticeable and could trigger counterspell. However, I believe most items don't have such components.
Finally, there are some items which reproduce the effects of spells but which do not require a spell to be cast. The artificer spell storing item is one example:
"While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spellâs effect from it, using your spellcasting ability modifier. If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate."
This costs the character their action to activate but they are not casting a spell they are producing the spell's effect.
As a Dm that has been playing and Dm for 20+ years. Were not perfect. Plus with 5th ed the rules can be loose and fast in some places. I have run into a few things where i made a call and then went back the next session and apologized. If there was something I needed to maybe fixed/reconned cause of the rules call I would fix it with the players input. But As other have already said how it works I don't want to bog you down with that more.
We make mistakes we are human. Mistakes are just extra lessons we learn. Keep it up it sounds like your doing the right things though asking here.
As a Dm that has been playing and Dm for 20+ years. Were not perfect. Plus with 5th ed the rules can be loose and fast in some places. I have run into a few things where i made a call and then went back the next session and apologized. If there was something I needed to maybe fixed/reconned cause of the rules call I would fix it with the players input. But As other have already said how it works I don't want to bog you down with that more.
We make mistakes we are human. Mistakes are just extra lessons we learn. Keep it up it sounds like your doing the right things though asking here.
Thank you very much, Drakkon â¤ď¸ Your answer means a lot to me, coming from someone with so much experience.
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Yesterday, I made a mistake while ruling about casting spells and now I'm feeling disappointed in myself đ˘
I usually try to be precise about actions, bonus actions and reactions when a spell is involved. However, it appears I overlooked the details on page 141 of the DMG, where it explicitly states that the user is casting the spell, not the magic item (emphasis mine):
In this specific case, the player has a magical sword. While holding the sword, he can use a bonus action to cast Hunter's Mark. He did that, but also cast Silence in the same turn.
Correct, also both spells are concentration so even if it was possible, casting one would end the other.
Don't be disappointed. Be proud and embrace the fact you are consistently reviewing the game rules and reaching out to other members of a game community to get input on how to rule on situations presented during a game. There is audio and video evidence of game developers, professional game streamers, and participants of the hobby with years of experience who rule incorrectly. The only people who haven't ruled correctly are people who don't assume the function of (G)DM'ing. Congratulate yourself on reaching out, getting educated, and increasing knowledge about the game.
An yes, your interpretation is accurate. The magical item allows the character access to the spell without having the use a spell slot, and unless stated, the caster does not have to meet the spells components to cast; the character must meet the requirements (i.e. spend an Action to, expend charges) of the magical item in order to cast. From there you should follow the rules of Spell Casting as laid out in the PHB.
This is a very interesting question, and I think there are no official rules about this specific case.
In my opinion, it could be ruled by rules similar to the Subtle Spell metamagic. However, I also believe it could depend on the specific magic item itself. For example, something like this could be detected by you and then trigger the counterspell:
No, though it might. Subtle Spell by design can be more deceptive since the caster can demonstrate the appearance they are engaging in another act while the spell is being cast. With using a magic item, the character bearing the item must use an act (i.e. use their Action, BA, reaction) so they can cast the spell through the item. This means the DM can rule the casting of the spell is obvious to a target because the character is pointing a Wand of Magic Missiles, the character embraces a ruby that is now glowing and emits bright light for 20 feet, or ancient incantations pour out of the sword the character has in their grasp. It comes down to how the DM wants to rule the act of expending charges; it might be more obvious to targets when compared to a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell. But you are not wrong in that it could be possible for the spell to cast without detection by the target.
Let me just respond to say: thank you! Really, thank you very much for your kind words â¤ď¸
I always try to do my best, and after each session, I typically review to confirm if I handled certain situations well. There are many details to consider, especially when it comes to casting spells.
I started playing DnD 5e last year, so I still need more experience, perhaps.
The rules for casting the spell from an item are very specific.
"and requires no components unless the item's description says otherwise"
No components explicitly means no verbal, somatic or material components since that is exactly what components means in the rules. Unless the magic item description says otherwise the spell requires no components. A spell requiring no components can not be detected when being cast and thus can not be used as a trigger for counterspell.
As you mention though, if a specific magic item requires a command word or other specified verbal, somatic, or material requirement to cast the spell then that component would be noticeable and could trigger counterspell. However, I believe most items don't have such components.
Finally, there are some items which reproduce the effects of spells but which do not require a spell to be cast. The artificer spell storing item is one example:
"While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spellâs effect from it, using your spellcasting ability modifier. If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate."
This costs the character their action to activate but they are not casting a spell they are producing the spell's effect.
As a Dm that has been playing and Dm for 20+ years. Were not perfect. Plus with 5th ed the rules can be loose and fast in some places. I have run into a few things where i made a call and then went back the next session and apologized. If there was something I needed to maybe fixed/reconned cause of the rules call I would fix it with the players input. But As other have already said how it works I don't want to bog you down with that more.
We make mistakes we are human. Mistakes are just extra lessons we learn. Keep it up it sounds like your doing the right things though asking here.
Thank you very much, Drakkon â¤ď¸ Your answer means a lot to me, coming from someone with so much experience.