Believe what you will, you can play however you want. Ether you use Nick and burn your BA in the use, or you use Nick once a turn, and keep your BA to use as you see fit.
As for DW Feat, that’s a DM call. If you want to restrain the use of the DW Feat till Lv4, the light property version of Dual-Weapon Fighting still exists, and the only change is the weapons used.
Flexable yet Powerful, who was it that said that? It’s like people don’t want the fighting classes to be able to keep up with the casters, if so why did they even bother with Weapon Mastery’s?
( and for Throw classes, make all the attacks with light weapons with throw ranges and you can still get the attacks mentioned.[ your dagger bill from the armorer is might be a bit much, but it’s a possibility.])
Run it however you want, but the way people read Nick is not quite how it sounds like it would work, and thats more why people want to ignore what the designer said about Nick and how it works just with the Light property version of Dual-Weapon Fighting then to actually study how the mastery’s work.
Take it for what you will, there is a reason why the way both the light weapon property was changed between 2014 and 2024, and the Dual Wielder Feat is near identical to the new light weapon property.
Nick comes along with nowhere to go. Come here Nick, Dual Weapon Fighting can find you a home.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Believe what you will, you can play however you want. Ether you use Nick and burn your BA in the use, or you use Nick once a turn, and keep your BA to use as you see fit.
That is certainly a statement.
As for DW Feat, that’s a DM call. If you want to restrain the use of the DW Feat till Lv4, the light property version of Dual-Weapon Fighting still exists, and the only change is the weapons used.
The feat has the prerequisite of level 4+. Even without that, please explain how you are getting a general feat before level 4.
Flexable yet Powerful, who was it that said that? It’s like people don’t want the fighting classes to be able to keep up with the casters, if so why did they even bother with Weapon Mastery’s?
You are the one who is arguing for something that would make fighting classes less powerful.
( and for Throw classes, make all the attacks with light weapons with throw ranges and you can still get the attacks mentioned.[ your dagger bill from the armorer is might be a bit much, but it’s a possibility.])
Throw classes?
Run it however you want, but the way people read Nick is not quite how it sounds like it would work, and thats more why people want to ignore what the designer said about Nick and how it works just with the Light property version of Dual-Weapon Fighting then to actually study how the mastery’s work.
How it sounds is irrelevant.
Take it for what you will, there is a reason why the way both the light weapon property was changed between 2014 and 2024, and the Dual Wielder Feat is near identical to the new light weapon property.
Nick comes along with nowhere to go. Come here Nick, Dual Weapon Fighting can find you a home.
"You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The extra attack from dual wielding can only be made once per turn. Either because you only have one bonus action, or because you use Nick mastery which then imposes that restriction. Regardless, best you can do is two attacks and a free BA.
Your quote is incomplete and taken out of context. This extra attack that Nick Mastery refers to is the extra attack of the Light property mentioned in previous sentence and is the only one ever discussed in the Mastery, it doesn't talk about the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat at all.
Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
"You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The extra attack from dual wielding can only be made once per turn. Either because you only have one bonus action, or because you use Nick mastery which then imposes that restriction. Regardless, best you can do is two attacks and a free BA.
That is a very misleading partial quote.
Nick states, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This could conceivably be referring to a few things.
"the extra attack of the light property"
nick
the actual attack you are making in that moment
To expand upon this:
for #2, Nick doesn't make an extra attack of its own.
If somebody wants to argue #3 is what Nick means, and Nick is referring to only the attack you are making at that point, and it is not restricting the extra attack of the Light property in general, there are some interesting consequences.
(However, this is all built on a bad premise, because you can never take any specific attack more than once begin with.)
But, for the sake of argument, let's go with it.
The Light property triggers when you make an attack with a Light weapon as part of your attack action.
Nick allows you to take the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action
Therefore, the attack moved into the attack action by Nick itself triggers the Light property
Nick does not place a restriction on how often you may use Nick. It says you can only make "this extra attack" once per turn.
If the limit on "this extra attack" applies to all invocations of the Light ability, we're done here.
But, if it does not restrict usage of the Light ability in general, you have another activation of the Light ability, along with Nick, which does not limit itself.
Therefore, you can make a second Nick attack. This attack likewise activates the Light ability....
So, if Nick does not restrict the Light ability in its entirety, then you may make an unbounded number of Nick attacks.
The only counterargument is if "you may only make this attack once per turn" is somehow a limitation upon Nick, but Nick does not provide an attack.
It's #1, the extra attack of the Light property is referred thrice in Nick Mastery;
Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make itas part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
"You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The extra attack from dual wielding can only be made once per turn. Either because you only have one bonus action, or because you use Nick mastery which then imposes that restriction. Regardless, best you can do is two attacks and a free BA.
That is a very misleading partial quote.
Nick states, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This could conceivably be referring to a few things.
"the extra attack of the light property"
nick
the actual attack you are making in that moment
To expand upon this:
for #2, Nick doesn't make an extra attack of its own.
If somebody wants to argue #3 is what Nick means, and Nick is referring to only the attack you are making at that point, and it is not restricting the extra attack of the Light property in general, there are some interesting consequences.
(However, this is all built on a bad premise, because you can never take any specific attack more than once begin with.)
But, for the sake of argument, let's go with it.
The Light property triggers when you make an attack with a Light weapon as part of your attack action.
Nick allows you to take the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action
Therefore, the attack moved into the attack action by Nick itself triggers the Light property
Nick does not place a restriction on how often you may use Nick. It says you can only make "this extra attack" once per turn.
If the limit on "this extra attack" applies to all invocations of the Light ability, we're done here.
But, if it does not restrict usage of the Light ability in general, you have another activation of the Light ability, along with Nick, which does not limit itself.
Therefore, you can make a second Nick attack. This attack likewise activates the Light ability....
So, if Nick does not restrict the Light ability in its entirety, then you may make an unbounded number of Nick attacks.
The only counterargument is if "you may only make this attack once per turn" is somehow a limitation upon Nick, but Nick does not provide an attack.
The irony here is overwhelming. I call somebody out for using a partial quote, and somebody else responds by very conspicuously removing this text, "You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist. All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them." from my post.
There is no reason to assume that nick is referring to the general category of attacks made due to a weapon having the light property. You could just as easily say it is referring to any attack at all. After all, one attack is more than zero.
To my understanding, Cleave Mastery is not like Nick Mastery, With Cleave, you make an extra attack. With Nick, you modify the extra attack that you make with the Light property. The only thing they have in common is their last sentence. ''You can make this extra attack only once per turn.''
Jeremy Crawford: With the dagger, that property is a property called Nick. It allows you to benefit from the extra attack that the Light property in the dagger gives you, without having to spend your Bonus Action on it.
You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist.
Dual wielding exists...
The quote comes from a feat literally named Dual Wielder, and an ability literally named Enhanced Dual Wielding.
All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them.
They're not two separate things. One enhances the other.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist.
Dual wielding exists...
The quote comes from a feat literally named Dual Wielder, and an ability literally named Enhanced Dual Wielding.
All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them.
They're not two separate things. One enhances the other.
Yes, holding two weapons at once exists. Holding two weapons at once does not give you an extra attack. You get an extra attack "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon..."
You can say whatever you want but not even the name supports you. All the name "enhanced duel wielding" tells you is that it makes duel wielding better. It does not say, "Enhanced light property: the rules for the light property are replaced by these rules."
It takes a not minute to realize that Nick is not not talking about a single weapon, but any light property weapon that has the Nick mastery for usage. The light property defines what a Light Weapon Attack is, an attack made with a weapon that has the light property. And that’s why the EDW feature of Dual Wielder reiterates that definition.
The devs made a mess of the rules and before the rules were publicly released, attempted to clear some of the mess up but was still censored in an attempt to retain confusion, and for what? So another SAC could be done later? ( Mods of the Forums have said SAC for 2024 is still “Official”, so what it is now a piece of potential SAC is considered “Unofficial”? )
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It takes a not minute to realize that Nick is not not talking about a single weapon, but any light property weapon that has the Nick mastery for usage. The light property defines what a Light Weapon Attack is, an attack made with a weapon that has the light property. And that’s why the EDW feature of Dual Wielder reiterates that definition.
The devs made a mess of the rules and before the rules were publicly released, attempted to clear some of the mess up but was still censored in an attempt to retain confusion, and for what? So another SAC could be done later? ( Mods of the Forums have said SAC for 2024 is still “Official”, so what it is now a piece of potential SAC is considered “Unofficial”? )
Nothing you have said here makes any sense. Of course nick works with every weapon that has nick. The phrase "light weapon attack" is not present in the light property. Nor is it mentioned anywhere in the phb, to my knowledge.
Your statement that the video was "censored" in order to "retain confusion" is pure conjecture. There is an adage, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." It is very possible the devs made a mistake in that video and edited it out.
It takes a not minute to realize that Nick is not not talking about a single weapon, but any light property weapon that has the Nick mastery for usage. The light property defines what a Light Weapon Attack is, an attack made with a weapon that has the light property. And that’s why the EDW feature of Dual Wielder reiterates that definition.
The devs made a mess of the rules and before the rules were publicly released, attempted to clear some of the mess up but was still censored in an attempt to retain confusion, and for what? So another SAC could be done later? ( Mods of the Forums have said SAC for 2024 is still “Official”, so what it is now a piece of potential SAC is considered “Unofficial”? )
Nothing you have said here makes any sense. Of course nick works with every weapon that has nick. The phrase "light weapon attack" is not present in the light property. Nor is it mentioned anywhere in the phb, to my knowledge.
Your statement that the video was "censored" in order to "retain confusion" is pure conjecture. There is an adage, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." It is very possible the devs made a mistake in that video and edited it out.
Funny how that phrase is used by certain individuals, and bears no relation with why the video was edited other than to discredit and call the dev names.
And lest you forget at level 4+ the general Feat of Weapon Mastery is available, and with a single mastery all classes can become a weapon master. Nick mastery and Vex probably top two.
So understanding how the actual mastery’s work goes a ling ways to making the game fun for all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It takes a not minute to realize that Nick is not not talking about a single weapon, but any light property weapon that has the Nick mastery for usage. The light property defines what a Light Weapon Attack is, an attack made with a weapon that has the light property. And that’s why the EDW feature of Dual Wielder reiterates that definition.
The devs made a mess of the rules and before the rules were publicly released, attempted to clear some of the mess up but was still censored in an attempt to retain confusion, and for what? So another SAC could be done later? ( Mods of the Forums have said SAC for 2024 is still “Official”, so what it is now a piece of potential SAC is considered “Unofficial”? )
Nothing you have said here makes any sense. Of course nick works with every weapon that has nick. The phrase "light weapon attack" is not present in the light property. Nor is it mentioned anywhere in the phb, to my knowledge.
Your statement that the video was "censored" in order to "retain confusion" is pure conjecture. There is an adage, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." It is very possible the devs made a mistake in that video and edited it out.
Funny how that phrase is used by certain individuals, and bears no relation with why the video was edited other than to discredit and call the dev names.
And lest you forget at level 4+ the general Feat of Weapon Mastery is available, and with a single mastery all classes can become a weapon master. Nick mastery and Vex probably top two.
So understanding how the actual mastery’s work goes a ling ways to making the game fun for all.
Funny how you just ignored my explanation of how that quote is relevant.
I have not forgotten that. Once again, you respond to me by mentioning other random topics.
You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist.
Dual wielding exists...
The quote comes from a feat literally named Dual Wielder, and an ability literally named Enhanced Dual Wielding.
All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them.
They're not two separate things. One enhances the other.
Yes, holding two weapons at once exists.
Right. Because dual wielding exists, despite your claim to the contrary.
Holding two weapons at once does not give you an extra attack.
Never said it does.
You get an extra attack "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon..."
That is one way to dual wield, yes. By default, that's how you do it. Two light weapons.
You can say whatever you want but not even the name supports you.
It does.
All the name "enhanced duel wielding" tells you is that it makes duel wielding better.
Yeah, it enhances the dual wielding options that by default use two light weapons.
It does not say, "Enhanced light property: the rules for the light property are replaced by these rules."
Nor does it say: Grants you a extra attack that is usable twice a round even if Nick says it can only be used once.
The rules only do what they say they do.
Right. So when they say you can only make that extra attack once per turn, you'd need some new rule giving you some different use of your BA. You've already attacked twice your action, your bonus action is free. Because that's what Nick does. Moves the BA attack to the action but prevents any other from this turn.
Otherwise you'd just use Nick to move it to your action again. And again. And again. Repeat forever.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Light -- allows you to make another attack as a Bonus Action Nick -- shifts the extra attack provided by Light to the Attack action Dual Wielder feat -- allows you make another attack as a Bonus Attack. Is explicitly not the same additional attack as the one provided by the Light property
That's the RAW. Full stop. Re-litigating it in yet another thread is not constructive posting
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I don't understand what is difficult to grasp about the verbage of the light property, nick mastery and dual-wielder feat.
1. Light property lets you make an extra attack with a light weapon using a bonus action when you attack with a light weapon as part of the attack action.
2. Nick modifies the light property's bonus action attack by clearly saying "when you make the extra attack of the Light property" and then specifying "You can make this extra attack only once per turn." There's only the extra attack from the light property that this can refer to since Nick is modifying it not granting a separate attack." This prevents you from double dipping on the light property extra attack meaning you can't use bonus action to get a second light property attack.
3. The dual-wielder feat never once says that it modifies the light property attack. The developers are clearly fine with an ability that modifies it because they wrote Nick. The feat uses almost identical language because it's intended to have the same trigger condition not because it's supposed to modify the light property. If that was the intention it would reference the light property like Nick.
You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist.
Dual wielding exists...
The quote comes from a feat literally named Dual Wielder, and an ability literally named Enhanced Dual Wielding.
All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them.
They're not two separate things. One enhances the other.
Yes, holding two weapons at once exists.
Right. Because dual wielding exists, despite your claim to the contrary.
Holding two weapons at once does not give you an extra attack.
Never said it does.
If you carefully follow the parts of the previous posts that are red, you will see that I said that there is no extra attack from dual wielding. You then said dual wielding exists. I said, yes it exists, but it doesn't give you an extra attack on its own. And now you are saying, no, you said it doesn't exist and I never said it gives you an extra attack.
You get an extra attack "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon..."
That is one way to dual wield, yes. By default, that's how you do it. Two light weapons.
To contend this, this isn't a way to dual wield, it is a way to make an extra attack that (RAI) requires you to be dual wielding. Anybody can hold two weapons of any kind simultaneously.
You can say whatever you want but not even the name supports you.
It does.
All the name "enhanced duel wielding" tells you is that it makes duel wielding better.
Yeah, it enhances the dual wielding options that by default use two light weapons.
Let's parse this.
Dual wielding: holding and using two weapons.
Light property: (RAI) if you are dual wielding two light weapons, you can make an attack with one as a bonus action if you have attacked with the other on your turn (as part of the attack action).
Dual wielder: enhanced dual wielding: If you attack with a light weapon (while dual wielding RAI), you can attack with a melee weapon that isn't two handed as a bonus action.
Notice how dual wielder does not reference the extra attack granted by the light property.
It does not say, "Enhanced light property: the rules for the light property are replaced by these rules."
Nor does it say: Grants you a extra attack that is usable twice a round even if Nick says it can only be used once.
The rules do not need to state things that can be expounded from them.
The rules only do what they say they do.
Right. So when they say you can only make that extra attack once per turn, you'd need some new rule giving you some different use of your BA. You've already attacked twice your action, your bonus action is free. Because that's what Nick does. Moves the BA attack to the action but prevents any other from this turn.
Otherwise you'd just use Nick to move it to your action again. And again. And again. Repeat forever.
I am at a loss for why you think that "this extra attack" is somehow referring to attacks made due to the fact that a weapon has the light property. If a class feature told you you can make two attacks when you take the attack action, but only if both are made with a light weapon, would you say this is incompatible with nick? By a simple reading, nick is either referring to the extra attack of the nick property, or the extra attack of the light property, which prevents you from using nick.
I don't understand what is difficult to grasp about the verbage of the light property, nick mastery and dual-wielder feat.
So, the core problem is that the wording of the Dual Wielder feat and the wording of the Nick mastery are both a little precious. That interaction is subtle, and not exactly the obvious read. The main reason people say it is true is a third-party discussion between Jeremy Crawford and Treantmonk, only related in the second party via youtube.
The "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" bit could mean a lot of different things, in particular.
(Note: I agree with your interpretation, but it's definitely an interpretation right now.)
As it happens, the way you've laid it out (and the way most(?) people understand it) is the only interpretation that seems "fair" to all the features --- if you combine the Light property, the Nick mastery, the Dual Wielder feat, and the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style, this interpretation is the only one where all 4 get to contribute and feel worthwhile, without one obviating another. So, I think it's the smart interpretation. But, it gives a level 4 character 3 whole attacks per turn, which some people are going to think is overpowered (even if it requires a feat/mastery/style/weapon investment).
To me the investments are consequent when wielding two weapons;
Unitiated Wielder: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Nick Master: 1 attack with a Light weapon and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action with no damage mod.
Two-Weapon Fighter: 1 attack with a Light weapon, 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Dual Wielder: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Nick Master Two-Weapon Fighter: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action with no damage mod.
Dual Wielder Two-Weapon Fighter: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Dual Wielder Nick Mastery: 1 attack with a Light weapon and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action with no damage mod., 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Two-Weapon Fighter Dual Wielder Nick Master: 1 attack with a Light weapon and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Believe what you will, you can play however you want. Ether you use Nick and burn your BA in the use, or you use Nick once a turn, and keep your BA to use as you see fit.
As for DW Feat, that’s a DM call. If you want to restrain the use of the DW Feat till Lv4, the light property version of Dual-Weapon Fighting still exists, and the only change is the weapons used.
Flexable yet Powerful, who was it that said that? It’s like people don’t want the fighting classes to be able to keep up with the casters, if so why did they even bother with Weapon Mastery’s?
( and for Throw classes, make all the attacks with light weapons with throw ranges and you can still get the attacks mentioned.[ your dagger bill from the armorer is might be a bit much, but it’s a possibility.])
Run it however you want, but the way people read Nick is not quite how it sounds like it would work, and thats more why people want to ignore what the designer said about Nick and how it works just with the Light property version of Dual-Weapon Fighting then to actually study how the mastery’s work.
Take it for what you will, there is a reason why the way both the light weapon property was changed between 2014 and 2024, and the Dual Wielder Feat is near identical to the new light weapon property.
Nick comes along with nowhere to go. Come here Nick, Dual Weapon Fighting can find you a home.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
That is certainly a statement.
The feat has the prerequisite of level 4+. Even without that, please explain how you are getting a general feat before level 4.
You are the one who is arguing for something that would make fighting classes less powerful.
Throw classes?
How it sounds is irrelevant.
I have no words.
Your quote is incomplete and taken out of context. This extra attack that Nick Mastery refers to is the extra attack of the Light property mentioned in previous sentence and is the only one ever discussed in the Mastery, it doesn't talk about the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat at all.
To expand upon this:
for #2, Nick doesn't make an extra attack of its own.
If somebody wants to argue #3 is what Nick means, and Nick is referring to only the attack you are making at that point, and it is not restricting the extra attack of the Light property in general, there are some interesting consequences.
(However, this is all built on a bad premise, because you can never take any specific attack more than once begin with.)
But, for the sake of argument, let's go with it.
The only counterargument is if "you may only make this attack once per turn" is somehow a limitation upon Nick, but Nick does not provide an attack.
It's #1, the extra attack of the Light property is referred thrice in Nick Mastery;
The irony here is overwhelming. I call somebody out for using a partial quote, and somebody else responds by very conspicuously removing this text, "You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist. All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them." from my post.
There is no reason to assume that nick is referring to the general category of attacks made due to a weapon having the light property. You could just as easily say it is referring to any attack at all. After all, one attack is more than zero.
To my understanding, Cleave Mastery is not like Nick Mastery, With Cleave, you make an extra attack. With Nick, you modify the extra attack that you make with the Light property. The only thing they have in common is their last sentence. ''You can make this extra attack only once per turn.''
The Devs explain it well in this video on New Weapon Mastery | 2024 Player's Handbook | D&D (youtube.com) (01:35)
Dual wielding exists...
The quote comes from a feat literally named Dual Wielder, and an ability literally named Enhanced Dual Wielding.
They're not two separate things. One enhances the other.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes, holding two weapons at once exists. Holding two weapons at once does not give you an extra attack. You get an extra attack "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon..."
You can say whatever you want but not even the name supports you. All the name "enhanced duel wielding" tells you is that it makes duel wielding better. It does not say, "Enhanced light property: the rules for the light property are replaced by these rules."
The rules only do what they say they do.
It takes a not minute to realize that Nick is not not talking about a single weapon, but any light property weapon that has the Nick mastery for usage.
The light property defines what a Light Weapon Attack is, an attack made with a weapon that has the light property. And that’s why the EDW feature of Dual Wielder reiterates that definition.
The devs made a mess of the rules and before the rules were publicly released, attempted to clear some of the mess up but was still censored in an attempt to retain confusion, and for what? So another SAC could be done later? ( Mods of the Forums have said SAC for 2024 is still “Official”, so what it is now a piece of potential SAC is considered “Unofficial”? )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Nothing you have said here makes any sense. Of course nick works with every weapon that has nick. The phrase "light weapon attack" is not present in the light property. Nor is it mentioned anywhere in the phb, to my knowledge.
Your statement that the video was "censored" in order to "retain confusion" is pure conjecture. There is an adage, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." It is very possible the devs made a mistake in that video and edited it out.
Funny how that phrase is used by certain individuals, and bears no relation with why the video was edited other than to discredit and call the dev names.
And lest you forget at level 4+ the general Feat of Weapon Mastery is available, and with a single mastery all classes can become a weapon master. Nick mastery and Vex probably top two.
So understanding how the actual mastery’s work goes a ling ways to making the game fun for all.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Funny how you just ignored my explanation of how that quote is relevant.
I have not forgotten that. Once again, you respond to me by mentioning other random topics.
Right. Because dual wielding exists, despite your claim to the contrary.
Never said it does.
That is one way to dual wield, yes. By default, that's how you do it. Two light weapons.
It does.
Yeah, it enhances the dual wielding options that by default use two light weapons.
Nor does it say: Grants you a extra attack that is usable twice a round even if Nick says it can only be used once.
Right. So when they say you can only make that extra attack once per turn, you'd need some new rule giving you some different use of your BA. You've already attacked twice your action, your bonus action is free. Because that's what Nick does. Moves the BA attack to the action but prevents any other from this turn.
Otherwise you'd just use Nick to move it to your action again. And again. And again. Repeat forever.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Which is not what it does. You are wrong
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't understand what is difficult to grasp about the verbage of the light property, nick mastery and dual-wielder feat.
1. Light property lets you make an extra attack with a light weapon using a bonus action when you attack with a light weapon as part of the attack action.
2. Nick modifies the light property's bonus action attack by clearly saying "when you make the extra attack of the Light property" and then specifying "You can make this extra attack only once per turn." There's only the extra attack from the light property that this can refer to since Nick is modifying it not granting a separate attack." This prevents you from double dipping on the light property extra attack meaning you can't use bonus action to get a second light property attack.
3. The dual-wielder feat never once says that it modifies the light property attack. The developers are clearly fine with an ability that modifies it because they wrote Nick. The feat uses almost identical language because it's intended to have the same trigger condition not because it's supposed to modify the light property. If that was the intention it would reference the light property like Nick.
If you carefully follow the parts of the previous posts that are red, you will see that I said that there is no extra attack from dual wielding. You then said dual wielding exists. I said, yes it exists, but it doesn't give you an extra attack on its own. And now you are saying, no, you said it doesn't exist and I never said it gives you an extra attack.
To contend this, this isn't a way to dual wield, it is a way to make an extra attack that (RAI) requires you to be dual wielding. Anybody can hold two weapons of any kind simultaneously.
Let's parse this.
Dual wielding: holding and using two weapons.
Light property: (RAI) if you are dual wielding two light weapons, you can make an attack with one as a bonus action if you have attacked with the other on your turn (as part of the attack action).
Dual wielder: enhanced dual wielding: If you attack with a light weapon (while dual wielding RAI), you can attack with a melee weapon that isn't two handed as a bonus action.
Notice how dual wielder does not reference the extra attack granted by the light property.
The rules do not need to state things that can be expounded from them.
I am at a loss for why you think that "this extra attack" is somehow referring to attacks made due to the fact that a weapon has the light property. If a class feature told you you can make two attacks when you take the attack action, but only if both are made with a light weapon, would you say this is incompatible with nick? By a simple reading, nick is either referring to the extra attack of the nick property, or the extra attack of the light property, which prevents you from using nick.
So, the core problem is that the wording of the Dual Wielder feat and the wording of the Nick mastery are both a little precious. That interaction is subtle, and not exactly the obvious read. The main reason people say it is true is a third-party discussion between Jeremy Crawford and Treantmonk, only related in the second party via youtube.
The "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" bit could mean a lot of different things, in particular.
(Note: I agree with your interpretation, but it's definitely an interpretation right now.)
As it happens, the way you've laid it out (and the way most(?) people understand it) is the only interpretation that seems "fair" to all the features --- if you combine the Light property, the Nick mastery, the Dual Wielder feat, and the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style, this interpretation is the only one where all 4 get to contribute and feel worthwhile, without one obviating another. So, I think it's the smart interpretation. But, it gives a level 4 character 3 whole attacks per turn, which some people are going to think is overpowered (even if it requires a feat/mastery/style/weapon investment).
Thus, all these endless threads of argument.
To me the investments are consequent when wielding two weapons;
Unitiated Wielder: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Nick Master: 1 attack with a Light weapon and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action with no damage mod.
Two-Weapon Fighter: 1 attack with a Light weapon, 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action
with no damage mod.Dual Wielder: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Nick Master Two-Weapon Fighter: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action
with no damage mod.Dual Wielder Two-Weapon Fighter: 1 attack with a Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action
with no damage mod.Dual Wielder Nick Mastery: 1 attack with a Light weapon and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action with no damage mod., 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action with no damage mod.
Two-Weapon Fighter Dual Wielder Nick Master: 1 attack with a Light weapon and 1 extra attack with a different Light weapon as Attack Action, 1 extra attack with a different non-Two Handed melee weapon as a Bonus Action
with no damage mod.