1)Does true ressurection need a fully intact corpse or just a portion of the target?
2)If the spell creates a new body for the target does the original body disappear or is it just considered a corpse at that point.
3)If true ressurection is used on a part of a target, would it be possible to cast animate dead on the part not targeted by true ressurection assuming they are in two different locations when true ressurection is cast on the portion of the target's corpse.
And yes our group's game is in a very weird scenario because of this interaction and we are not sure how to rule it.
You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. The creature is revived with all its Hit Points.
This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all magical contagions, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs. If the creature was Undead, it is restored to its non-Undead form.
The spell can provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature’s name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you.
So...
1. Either should do just fine.
2. It only creates a new one if the original doesn't exist.
3. Shouldn't be any parts left tbh and I wouldn't allow any individual pieces of a body that's off on its own to count as a (separate) creature. If a DM does then he will have to make the rulings that needs to be made due to it.
Right so to clarify the target was basically dismembered and in our groups haste to hide the evdince we shoved most of it into a bag of Holding missing a few chunks in the process, the spell was cast on those chunks. So would what's still be in the bag of Holding be considered a corpse for the use of animate dead, or are we currently carrying roughly 150lbs of dead weight that has no use to us is the real question. But thank you for the perspective it did help.
The biggest question is going to be what counts as no longer existing. Or even more if you have half the GJ body and someone else has the other half.
As written it seems if the body exists, you need the body. I probably wouldn't require it in a game though.
Fighting your old body could be fun. I'd have to know the actual situation to make a ruling though. Of its going to result in something op I wouldn't allow it. Right now I don't think it would make a major difference.
A lot of this might change with the new version of the DMG, but in the 2014 version there was a subsection called "Bringing Back the Dead" that offered some guidance on such things. Some of the relevant details include:
When a creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides . . .
Bringing someone back from the dead means retrieving the soul from that plane and returning it to its body . . .
A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and might refuse to return on that basis . . .
So, the design concept here is that a "creature" is a combination of the creature's body and the creature's soul. Upon death these become separated from each other. But the body is still a part of the creature (in general, it's the "targetable" part), which is why spells like this which explicitly target a creature work as intended when the target is a corpse.
In general, the soul cannot be in more than one place at the same time. If the soul was retrieved "from that plane" and returned to its body, it cannot then subsequently be returned to another body, even if that other body was previously part of the same body because the soul cannot be in two places at once and the soul must be in "that plane" to be eligible to be returned to the body. The body that the soul returns to becomes the creature's body moving forward and any other leftover parts are not. I guess the only question would be if the creature dies again could the old parts then be used to retrieve the soul "from that plane" at that time.
Now when it comes to Animate Dead, the soul of the creature isn't really part of that process. The body is animated without the soul.
Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small Humanoid within range. The target becomes an Undead creature
In this case, a creature is not targeted -- the "bones" or the "corpse" is being treated as an object for this spell. As long as there are enough bones or enough of a cadaver to qualify as a pile of bones or as a corpse (DM's judgement call), then this spell should probably work, even if the soul is no longer (currently) associated with those body parts (meaning, they are no longer parts of a "creature").
Right so to clarify the target was basically dismembered and in our groups haste to hide the evdince we shoved most of it into a bag of Holding missing a few chunks in the process, the spell was cast on those chunks. So would what's still be in the bag of Holding be considered a corpse for the use of animate dead, or are we currently carrying roughly 150lbs of dead weight that has no use to us is the real question. But thank you for the perspective it did help.
That's the current situation we have a necromancer in our group who wants to make a minion, so we needed to know if true res destroys the original body if it was in pieces when the spell was cast, npc was already revived
Right so to clarify the target was basically dismembered and in our groups haste to hide the evdince we shoved most of it into a bag of Holding missing a few chunks in the process, the spell was cast on those chunks. So would what's still be in the bag of Holding be considered a corpse for the use of animate dead, or are we currently carrying roughly 150lbs of dead weight that has no use to us is the real question. But thank you for the perspective it did help.
That's the current situation we have a necromancer in our group who wants to make a minion, so we needed to know if true res destroys the original body if it was in pieces when the spell was cast, npc was already revived
One of two possibilities. True Res needed the body you have. The pieces do not qualify for true res to work. In that sense the DM made an error.
The other possibility is that if you don't have possession of the body true res will create one.
In either case I don't see why animate dead shouldn't work. The spell requires a corpse or a pile of bones, which you have.
Of course I would rule a human body is too much for a bag of holding in the first place. Especially if you had anything else in it. As likely the contents is over the weight everything should be in the astral plane right now.
But as for your actual issue id let the player use animate dead
1)Does true ressurection need a fully intact corpse or just a portion of the target?
2)If the spell creates a new body for the target does the original body disappear or is it just considered a corpse at that point.
3)If true ressurection is used on a part of a target, would it be possible to cast animate dead on the part not targeted by true ressurection assuming they are in two different locations when true ressurection is cast on the portion of the target's corpse.
And yes our group's game is in a very weird scenario because of this interaction and we are not sure how to rule it.
True Resurrection
So...
1. Either should do just fine.
2. It only creates a new one if the original doesn't exist.
3. Shouldn't be any parts left tbh and I wouldn't allow any individual pieces of a body that's off on its own to count as a (separate) creature. If a DM does then he will have to make the rulings that needs to be made due to it.
Right so to clarify the target was basically dismembered and in our groups haste to hide the evdince we shoved most of it into a bag of Holding missing a few chunks in the process, the spell was cast on those chunks. So would what's still be in the bag of Holding be considered a corpse for the use of animate dead, or are we currently carrying roughly 150lbs of dead weight that has no use to us is the real question. But thank you for the perspective it did help.
Also target was living not undead at time of death if that holds relevance
The biggest question is going to be what counts as no longer existing. Or even more if you have half the GJ body and someone else has the other half.
As written it seems if the body exists, you need the body. I probably wouldn't require it in a game though.
Fighting your old body could be fun. I'd have to know the actual situation to make a ruling though. Of its going to result in something op I wouldn't allow it. Right now I don't think it would make a major difference.
A lot of this might change with the new version of the DMG, but in the 2014 version there was a subsection called "Bringing Back the Dead" that offered some guidance on such things. Some of the relevant details include:
So, the design concept here is that a "creature" is a combination of the creature's body and the creature's soul. Upon death these become separated from each other. But the body is still a part of the creature (in general, it's the "targetable" part), which is why spells like this which explicitly target a creature work as intended when the target is a corpse.
In general, the soul cannot be in more than one place at the same time. If the soul was retrieved "from that plane" and returned to its body, it cannot then subsequently be returned to another body, even if that other body was previously part of the same body because the soul cannot be in two places at once and the soul must be in "that plane" to be eligible to be returned to the body. The body that the soul returns to becomes the creature's body moving forward and any other leftover parts are not. I guess the only question would be if the creature dies again could the old parts then be used to retrieve the soul "from that plane" at that time.
Now when it comes to Animate Dead, the soul of the creature isn't really part of that process. The body is animated without the soul.
In this case, a creature is not targeted -- the "bones" or the "corpse" is being treated as an object for this spell. As long as there are enough bones or enough of a cadaver to qualify as a pile of bones or as a corpse (DM's judgement call), then this spell should probably work, even if the soul is no longer (currently) associated with those body parts (meaning, they are no longer parts of a "creature").
One of two possibilities. True Res needed the body you have. The pieces do not qualify for true res to work. In that sense the DM made an error.
The other possibility is that if you don't have possession of the body true res will create one.
In either case I don't see why animate dead shouldn't work. The spell requires a corpse or a pile of bones, which you have.
Of course I would rule a human body is too much for a bag of holding in the first place. Especially if you had anything else in it. As likely the contents is over the weight everything should be in the astral plane right now.
But as for your actual issue id let the player use animate dead
True resurrection costs way too much to use it as a source for animate dead given how many creatures PCs kill a game session.
Thanks for the advice I'll discuss these with the dm and see what route we go with. Will post an update once I confirm his decision