But if you’ve already got Hide as a Bonus Action and Reliable Talent since that’s now 7th level, what does Supreme Sneak do then?
Two things
Because you didn't lose your invisibility, you are not subject to opportunity attacks (or other things that might trigger on visible creatures) while you are moving back to cover.
You can use your bonus action for something other than hiding.
Also, note that if you can't move out of cover and remain hidden, supreme sneak is unusable, because it has a precondition of being hidden before you make the attack.
It's by far the most controversial aspect of the core rules revision to date judging by how heavily discussed it's been on various D&D forums it's safe to assume WoTC will at some point clear it up by way of errata or Sage Advice. I expect there will be ways to determine line of sight in grid play, like DMG 2014 and perhaps more guidance on how to handle the Hide action.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
The Supreme Sneak feature prevent the Hide action's Invisible condition from ending on you immediately after you make an attack roll by extending it if you end the turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover. If don't have it anymore because enemy find you before attacking, it won't come into play so you have to still be hidden first and foremost
But if you’ve already got Hide as a Bonus Action and Reliable Talent since that’s now 7th level, what does Supreme Sneak do then?
Two things
Because you didn't lose your invisibility, you are not subject to opportunity attacks (or other things that might trigger on visible creatures) while you are moving back to cover.
You can use your bonus action for something other than hiding.
Also, note that if you can't move out of cover and remain hidden, supreme sneak is unusable, because it has a precondition of being hidden before you make the attack.
I specifically addressed both points but to reiterate- by level 9 you’ve had two chances to take a feat that substantially counters AoO without using up both damage die. There’s also already a Cunning Strike that blocks AoO and gives extra movement, so there’s actually negative value on that front. And there’s nothing a Thief is likely to consistently want their BA for- Use Item is entirely based on what magic items you end up with and Nick pretty much eliminates the need for a Bonus Action on basic TWF. What else do you need your Bonus Action for that’s not extremely circumstantial?
As for what good the feature is, once again it’s attacking from cover- the classic purpose of cover is something that lets you shoot relatively freely while protecting you from return fire- or when there’s obscurement you can see through, such as darkness when you have darkvision or the target is standing in a light source.
As for what good the feature is, once again it’s attacking from cover- the classic purpose of cover is something that lets you shoot relatively freely while protecting you from return fire- or when there’s obscurement you can see through, such as darkness when you have darkvision or the target is standing in a light source.
It's nearly useless for attacking from cover, since you can just use bonus action hide right after you attack and always succeed (it helps if the attacker has a readied action). Honestly, Supreme Sneak is kind of a dud feature no matter how you interpret the stealth rules.
As for what good the feature is, once again it’s attacking from cover- the classic purpose of cover is something that lets you shoot relatively freely while protecting you from return fire- or when there’s obscurement you can see through, such as darkness when you have darkvision or the target is standing in a light source.
It's nearly useless for attacking from cover, since you can just use bonus action hide right after you attack and always succeed (it helps if the attacker has a readied action). Honestly, Supreme Sneak is kind of a dud feature no matter how you interpret the stealth rules.
But without it, when you attack from cover your position would be known, and you would lose the Invisible Condition. If the enemy knows where you are you can't use the Hide action again unless you have moved to different cover (as expressed in the rules saying the condition ends if the enemy finds you).
Yes. The way awareness works in 5e, if a creature has unobstructed line of sight on you and you don't have something like the Invisibility spell up, then for the purposes of combat they see you.
Even if the guy walked right up to the bush you were hiding in, but didn't know you were there, no sneak attack?
If you're unseen when you make the attack, then you would get advantage; however, in 5e there's no "window of surprise" in combat when you rush out from the bush into open space to stab the guy
I think the one thing everyone can agree upon about the 2024 rules of Hiding, and Invisible is that the rules are poorly explained.
So if you're attacking from inside the bush, Sneak Attack is possible. If there is 5 feet of open space between you and the target, no sneak attack, even if the target was completely unaware of a threat. Or maybe even less? Is 1 foot of open space enough to lose Sneak Attack? If not, is 4 feet of open space still enough to get it, but 5 feet is not? Battles are done in discreet turns even though it's not realistic to try and resolve things happening in a coherent manner.
Being unseen is not necessarily the same thing as not having LoS; the exact nature of how cover works in regard to LoS from different positions is a DM matter
The problem with this approach combined with the "instant detection when in LoS" is that in practice it will bog down combat. You're hiding behind a pillar, you can't see the target, you will have to emerge from cover enough to be able to attack the target. Will you get Sneak Attack? Maybe. Under the "360 degrees of vision" rule, you could instantly become visible.
You have to ask the DM all kinds of questions, such as about how distracted the target is, each and every time, because the rules are written in a way to be unclear. Rules exist so that you don't need to interrogate and negotiate with the DM every time; you can reliably understand how they work and plan your turns accordingly. This is the problem with the 2024 stealth rules.
It was my understanding that Rogues essentially need to get Sneak Attack every round to remain competitive in damage.
Well, first things first there's no such thing as "competitive" damage in the design of 5e because it's not a competition. This isn't WoW, you don't kick people from the party just because they're not meeting the mandated DPS threshold. However, regarding procing Sneak Attack, that would be both why there's a suite of other features to proc Sneak Attack aside from attacking while unseen such as Vex weapons, having an ally within 5 ft of the target, and Steady Aim. Attacking from stealth is an option that might potentially be available, but it's not the only one and imo the psuedo-flanking is clearly meant to be the default method.
Don't be obtuse. You know perfectly well what I mean, and I'm certain you understand that a PLAYER would feel dissatisfied if they feel they are not contributing much to combat if they're trying to use their Bonus Action Hide to get advantage and it continually gets shut down.
Other sources of ways to get Advantage or Sneak Attack are not relevant, because the current subject is trying to clarify the circumstances when a Rogue can get Sneak Attack from advantage provided by hiding. A Rogue might not have party member support because they could be off ahead of the group to eliminate a scout or guard, and a clanky Paladin in full plate would not help. They might not want to use Steady Aim because they need to move quickly after dispatching the guard.
Yes. The way awareness works in 5e, if a creature has unobstructed line of sight on you and you don't have something like the Invisibility spell up, then for the purposes of combat they see you.
Even if the guy walked right up to the bush you were hiding in, but didn't know you were there, no sneak attack?
If you're unseen when you make the attack, then you would get advantage; however, in 5e there's no "window of surprise" in combat when you rush out from the bush into open space to stab the guy
I think the one thing everyone can agree upon about the 2024 rules of Hiding, and Invisible is that the rules are poorly explained.
So if you're attacking from inside the bush, Sneak Attack is possible. If there is 5 feet of open space between you and the target, no sneak attack, even if the target was completely unaware of a threat. Or maybe even less? Is 1 foot of open space enough to lose Sneak Attack? If not, is 4 feet of open space still enough to get it, but 5 feet is not? Battles are done in discreet turns even though it's not realistic to try and resolve things happening in a coherent manner.
Being unseen is not necessarily the same thing as not having LoS; the exact nature of how cover works in regard to LoS from different positions is a DM matter
The problem with this approach combined with the "instant detection when in LoS" is that in practice it will bog down combat. You're hiding behind a pillar, you can't see the target, you will have to emerge from cover enough to be able to attack the target. Will you get Sneak Attack? Maybe. Under the "360 degrees of vision" rule, you could instantly become visible.
You have to ask the DM all kinds of questions, such as about how distracted the target is, each and every time, because the rules are written in a way to be unclear. Rules exist so that you don't need to interrogate and negotiate with the DM every time; you can reliably understand how they work and plan your turns accordingly. This is the problem with the 2024 stealth rules.
It was my understanding that Rogues essentially need to get Sneak Attack every round to remain competitive in damage.
Well, first things first there's no such thing as "competitive" damage in the design of 5e because it's not a competition. This isn't WoW, you don't kick people from the party just because they're not meeting the mandated DPS threshold. However, regarding procing Sneak Attack, that would be both why there's a suite of other features to proc Sneak Attack aside from attacking while unseen such as Vex weapons, having an ally within 5 ft of the target, and Steady Aim. Attacking from stealth is an option that might potentially be available, but it's not the only one and imo the psuedo-flanking is clearly meant to be the default method.
Don't be obtuse. You know perfectly well what I mean, and I'm certain you understand that a PLAYER would feel dissatisfied if they feel they are not contributing much to combat if they're trying to use their Bonus Action Hide to get advantage and it continually gets shut down.
Other sources of ways to get Advantage or Sneak Attack are not relevant, because the current subject is trying to clarify the circumstances when a Rogue can get Sneak Attack from advantage provided by hiding. A Rogue might not have party member support because they could be off ahead of the group to eliminate a scout or guard, and a clanky Paladin in full plate would not help. They might not want to use Steady Aim because they need to move quickly after dispatching the guard.
The “1ft of space” bit would mean they are in the adjacent space and as such you don’t need to actually move, as defined by typical 5’x5’ grid play. And no, combat doesn’t get bogged down when emerging from behind cover because the “are they distracted” for the purposes of the Sneak Attack feature are covered by having an ally within 5ft of them. Once again, please note that while I can’t point to a passage that objectively spells it out, the pseudo-flanking is clearly intended to be the default method of meeting Sneak Attack’s conditions. And yes, the other methods of proccing Sneak Attack are relevant because they highlight that attacking from Hiding is meant to be a niche tactic, not one you default to in every circumstance. If you’ve run ahead to scout then initiative hasn’t been rolled and Stealth is more up to however the DM wants to run it out of combat.
That said, D&D isn’t really structured to make “I run ahead and silence the guards” a viable tactic in the first place; at 10th level you get 5d6 bonus damage, averaging out to 17 points of damage. Let’s keep it simple and say your weapon damage averages out to 10 for a total of 27. By the averages, you could probably but not certainly down a CR 1 or 2 creature like that- anything more would require inordinately good rolls. And that’s when you’re level 10, halfway through your progression. So regardless of your stealthiness, the scenario you’re describing isn’t something that’s likely to go your way, so the system not supporting it on other fronts is a result of the tactic not being viable for this game, not a flaw in the rules.
That said, D&D isn’t really structured to make “I run ahead and silence the guards” a viable tactic in the first place.
Depends on how the DM sets up adventures; you won't take out a combat-relevant foe in one sneak attack, but there's no guarantee that watchers are combat-relevant, at least on an individual basis. If you're sneaking up on a bandit camp with a hundred bandits (plus some higher CR enemies) no individual bandit is a meaningful threat, but the PCs might still prefer that one of them who's on watch doesn't yell and wake up everyone else.
That said, D&D isn’t really structured to make “I run ahead and silence the guards” a viable tactic in the first place.
Depends on how the DM sets up adventures; you won't take out a combat-relevant foe in one sneak attack, but there's no guarantee that watchers are combat-relevant, at least on an individual basis. If you're sneaking up on a bandit camp with a hundred bandits (plus some higher CR enemies) no individual bandit is a meaningful threat, but the PCs might still prefer that one of them who's on watch doesn't yell and wake up everyone else.
They might prefer it, but as PC DPR to enemy HP scales, it’s not something you can reliably expect to pull off unless the DM is tossing complete scrubs into an encounter. A CR 1/8 Bandit has 11 HP, meaning it’s about even odds a tier 1 PC will down them in one go. The scaling generally gets less favorable from there as you add ~3 damage every other level from Sneak Attack and a few extra bumps from ASI and magic weapons. I’m not saying the tactic should never be considered, but it’s a “well, you can certainly try” move, not a consistent one.
So basically Supreme Sneak becomes the rouge’s version of greater invisibility as long as they aren’t spotted.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I agree that the 2024 rules on hiding need clarification, and that isn't the only one. It's almost as if they wrote the 2024 PHB while whispering to themselves, "Let's word everything in such a way as to make our intent impossible to decipher hehehehe."
Until there's sage advice saying otherwise, i'm going with as soon as someone has line of sight to the hiding (aka invisible condition) character without being obstructed by concealment, cover, or distraction - they're likely seen.
In otherwords, adding to the "The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.”
OR THE TARGET GAINS LINE OF SIGHT TO YOU UNOBSTRUCTED BY CONCEALMENT OR COVER
If a guard is at the north end of a well lit hallway, and the character is at the south end, completely hidden around a corner - and the character rolls a successful Stealth check (Hide) - let's say they roll a 25... as soon as they step around that corner and into the guard's view, i'm ruling that they have been spotted - unless there's something actively distracting that guard.
I don't buy the whole argument some are making that "but it said you gain the invisible condition, and you haven't cast a spell, made a noise, the guard can't roll a perception check that high, and you haven't made an attack so you're still invisible and can just walk out in the open with no chance of being seen."
If it turns out that WAS the designer's intent, then we're houseruling it away because that's ridiculous.
You know what would be just as absurd, not being able to sneak up behind someone. A world where everyone has perfect 360 degree vision at all times, is just as absurd as one where you can sneak down a empty well lit corridor that a guard is currently observing.
That being said I think a high level rogue should be able to do the absurd,. Hide might have a Dc of 15, but give a DC for hiding in plain sight like 25 or 30. The end range of skills should in effect be magical even if they are only done through mundane effort.
They might prefer it, but as PC DPR to enemy HP scales, it’s not something you can reliably expect to pull off unless the DM is tossing complete scrubs into an encounter.
Which is exactly what I was describing. Large numbers of scrubs are rare because they're hard to run, but a hundred goblins with shortbows are a threat tenth level characters should respect (there are plenty of ways of dealing with it, but just bulling through expecting it to be fine will likely turn out badly).
They might prefer it, but as PC DPR to enemy HP scales, it’s not something you can reliably expect to pull off unless the DM is tossing complete scrubs into an encounter.
Which is exactly what I was describing. Large numbers of scrubs are rare because they're hard to run, but a hundred goblins with shortbows are a threat tenth level characters should respect (there are plenty of ways of dealing with it, but just bulling through expecting it to be fine will likely turn out badly).
Tied to a different thread but the old assassins ability gave them a wider range of scrub level to take out. At 9th level they could fairly reliably drop almost 50 hit point enemies without crazy min maxing builds in the surprise round. Just going first and with one attack doing average damage. Assuming min max games it would go much deeper. And with how surprise worked back then you could add another 25ish before they went. So while they were scrubs for your level you could take CR 4-5ish enemies that weren't HP stacked, hell caster enemies of Cr 9ish were in the range of possibility. Current rogue assassin is around 30 without min maxing. And with the new surprise rules that is it. That is like CR 1 enemies. If you are clearing massive camps obviously you will eventually roll bad so both of these would need to run for it at some point. Hit points scale insanely fast. I kind of liked 4es minions because of this. They were enemies that could pose a threat one on one in that they would hit, do good damage etc, but if you got the drop on them you could take them out in one hit. Feels weird outside a war encampment or something to have level 9 players butting heads with CR 1/8th enemies.
Going to say though given that surprise can happen to the party, the new surprise rules are probably a good thing.
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Two things
Also, note that if you can't move out of cover and remain hidden, supreme sneak is unusable, because it has a precondition of being hidden before you make the attack.
It's by far the most controversial aspect of the core rules revision to date judging by how heavily discussed it's been on various D&D forums it's safe to assume WoTC will at some point clear it up by way of errata or Sage Advice. I expect there will be ways to determine line of sight in grid play, like DMG 2014 and perhaps more guidance on how to handle the Hide action.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
The Supreme Sneak feature prevent the Hide action's Invisible condition from ending on you immediately after you make an attack roll by extending it if you end the turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover. If don't have it anymore because enemy find you before attacking, it won't come into play so you have to still be hidden first and foremost
I specifically addressed both points but to reiterate- by level 9 you’ve had two chances to take a feat that substantially counters AoO without using up both damage die. There’s also already a Cunning Strike that blocks AoO and gives extra movement, so there’s actually negative value on that front. And there’s nothing a Thief is likely to consistently want their BA for- Use Item is entirely based on what magic items you end up with and Nick pretty much eliminates the need for a Bonus Action on basic TWF. What else do you need your Bonus Action for that’s not extremely circumstantial?
As for what good the feature is, once again it’s attacking from cover- the classic purpose of cover is something that lets you shoot relatively freely while protecting you from return fire- or when there’s obscurement you can see through, such as darkness when you have darkvision or the target is standing in a light source.
It's nearly useless for attacking from cover, since you can just use bonus action hide right after you attack and always succeed (it helps if the attacker has a readied action). Honestly, Supreme Sneak is kind of a dud feature no matter how you interpret the stealth rules.
But without it, when you attack from cover your position would be known, and you would lose the Invisible Condition. If the enemy knows where you are you can't use the Hide action again unless you have moved to different cover (as expressed in the rules saying the condition ends if the enemy finds you).
I think the one thing everyone can agree upon about the 2024 rules of Hiding, and Invisible is that the rules are poorly explained.
So if you're attacking from inside the bush, Sneak Attack is possible. If there is 5 feet of open space between you and the target, no sneak attack, even if the target was completely unaware of a threat. Or maybe even less? Is 1 foot of open space enough to lose Sneak Attack? If not, is 4 feet of open space still enough to get it, but 5 feet is not? Battles are done in discreet turns even though it's not realistic to try and resolve things happening in a coherent manner.
The problem with this approach combined with the "instant detection when in LoS" is that in practice it will bog down combat. You're hiding behind a pillar, you can't see the target, you will have to emerge from cover enough to be able to attack the target. Will you get Sneak Attack? Maybe. Under the "360 degrees of vision" rule, you could instantly become visible.
You have to ask the DM all kinds of questions, such as about how distracted the target is, each and every time, because the rules are written in a way to be unclear. Rules exist so that you don't need to interrogate and negotiate with the DM every time; you can reliably understand how they work and plan your turns accordingly. This is the problem with the 2024 stealth rules.
Don't be obtuse. You know perfectly well what I mean, and I'm certain you understand that a PLAYER would feel dissatisfied if they feel they are not contributing much to combat if they're trying to use their Bonus Action Hide to get advantage and it continually gets shut down.
Other sources of ways to get Advantage or Sneak Attack are not relevant, because the current subject is trying to clarify the circumstances when a Rogue can get Sneak Attack from advantage provided by hiding. A Rogue might not have party member support because they could be off ahead of the group to eliminate a scout or guard, and a clanky Paladin in full plate would not help. They might not want to use Steady Aim because they need to move quickly after dispatching the guard.
The “1ft of space” bit would mean they are in the adjacent space and as such you don’t need to actually move, as defined by typical 5’x5’ grid play. And no, combat doesn’t get bogged down when emerging from behind cover because the “are they distracted” for the purposes of the Sneak Attack feature are covered by having an ally within 5ft of them. Once again, please note that while I can’t point to a passage that objectively spells it out, the pseudo-flanking is clearly intended to be the default method of meeting Sneak Attack’s conditions. And yes, the other methods of proccing Sneak Attack are relevant because they highlight that attacking from Hiding is meant to be a niche tactic, not one you default to in every circumstance. If you’ve run ahead to scout then initiative hasn’t been rolled and Stealth is more up to however the DM wants to run it out of combat.
That said, D&D isn’t really structured to make “I run ahead and silence the guards” a viable tactic in the first place; at 10th level you get 5d6 bonus damage, averaging out to 17 points of damage. Let’s keep it simple and say your weapon damage averages out to 10 for a total of 27. By the averages, you could probably but not certainly down a CR 1 or 2 creature like that- anything more would require inordinately good rolls. And that’s when you’re level 10, halfway through your progression. So regardless of your stealthiness, the scenario you’re describing isn’t something that’s likely to go your way, so the system not supporting it on other fronts is a result of the tactic not being viable for this game, not a flaw in the rules.
Depends on how the DM sets up adventures; you won't take out a combat-relevant foe in one sneak attack, but there's no guarantee that watchers are combat-relevant, at least on an individual basis. If you're sneaking up on a bandit camp with a hundred bandits (plus some higher CR enemies) no individual bandit is a meaningful threat, but the PCs might still prefer that one of them who's on watch doesn't yell and wake up everyone else.
They might prefer it, but as PC DPR to enemy HP scales, it’s not something you can reliably expect to pull off unless the DM is tossing complete scrubs into an encounter. A CR 1/8 Bandit has 11 HP, meaning it’s about even odds a tier 1 PC will down them in one go. The scaling generally gets less favorable from there as you add ~3 damage every other level from Sneak Attack and a few extra bumps from ASI and magic weapons. I’m not saying the tactic should never be considered, but it’s a “well, you can certainly try” move, not a consistent one.
So basically Supreme Sneak becomes the rouge’s version of greater invisibility as long as they aren’t spotted.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You know what would be just as absurd, not being able to sneak up behind someone. A world where everyone has perfect 360 degree vision at all times, is just as absurd as one where you can sneak down a empty well lit corridor that a guard is currently observing.
That being said I think a high level rogue should be able to do the absurd,. Hide might have a Dc of 15, but give a DC for hiding in plain sight like 25 or 30. The end range of skills should in effect be magical even if they are only done through mundane effort.
Which is exactly what I was describing. Large numbers of scrubs are rare because they're hard to run, but a hundred goblins with shortbows are a threat tenth level characters should respect (there are plenty of ways of dealing with it, but just bulling through expecting it to be fine will likely turn out badly).
Tied to a different thread but the old assassins ability gave them a wider range of scrub level to take out. At 9th level they could fairly reliably drop almost 50 hit point enemies without crazy min maxing builds in the surprise round. Just going first and with one attack doing average damage. Assuming min max games it would go much deeper. And with how surprise worked back then you could add another 25ish before they went. So while they were scrubs for your level you could take CR 4-5ish enemies that weren't HP stacked, hell caster enemies of Cr 9ish were in the range of possibility. Current rogue assassin is around 30 without min maxing. And with the new surprise rules that is it. That is like CR 1 enemies. If you are clearing massive camps obviously you will eventually roll bad so both of these would need to run for it at some point. Hit points scale insanely fast. I kind of liked 4es minions because of this. They were enemies that could pose a threat one on one in that they would hit, do good damage etc, but if you got the drop on them you could take them out in one hit. Feels weird outside a war encampment or something to have level 9 players butting heads with CR 1/8th enemies.
Going to say though given that surprise can happen to the party, the new surprise rules are probably a good thing.