Can't say I understand why, but I can say that my 8 STR 100lb weakling Witch successfully grappled 2 monsters so far because of it. LMAO
If the opponent can't make a DC12 (or lower) STR save then you are quite likely to have won the contested STR check that the 2014 rules use too.
What i'm saying is that in the 2014 rules, this character had no chance to successfully grapple anything. To do so would have required that my character roll very high on an athletics check, AND the opponent would have had to roll very LOW on either athletics or acrobatics to get under my roll.
But in the 2024 rules, if my character scores a hit with an unarmed strike (not really that hard), then the opponent needs to make a save. If they roll just below average, it is likely they'll fail. Much greater odds of successfully grappling this way for this character (a 45% chance is much better than a 20% chance, etc.). Instead of relying on 2 low probability rolls to have to happen for it to succeed, I only have to rely on one slightly lower than average roll.
That means after just a couple of tries, it's likely to work - and it has - much to my amuzement and the DM's frustration when his average stat baddie trying to escape gets grappled by the village weakling that likes casting Bane (Bane didn't affect skill checks, it does affect saving throws).
In the 2024 rules, you do not need to score a hit with an unarmed strike, correct? You just target them, they make the save or fail it and become grappled.
Can't say I understand why, but I can say that my 8 STR 100lb weakling Witch successfully grappled 2 monsters so far because of it. LMAO
At level 1-4, against a monster with neither save proficiency nor athletics proficiency (typical), if the monster has, say, strength 15
Athletics -1 vs Athletics +2: 34% to grapple
Strength +2 vs save DC 9: 35% to grapple
Because contests have somewhat different success curves than static DCs, you have a better chance against very high str, lower chance against very low. I would note that, while bane reduces saves but not checks, hex reduces checks but not saves, and as a no save bonus action spell, is a lot easier to get off.
In the 2024 rules, you do not need to score a hit with an unarmed strike, correct? You just target them, they make the save or fail it and become grappled.
In 2024 grapples initiated by PCs start with a successful unarmed strike. Monsters have other ways to grappling.
But in the 2024 rules, if my character scores a hit with an unarmed strike (not really that hard), then the opponent needs to make a save.
No that's not how it works. You try to grab them and they make a save and then they are either Grappled or not. And that's all that attack does so unless you have multiple attacks then you aren't dealing any damage or casting any spells or nothing such.
What i'm saying is that in the 2014 rules, this character had no chance to successfully grapple anything. To do so would have required that my character roll very high on an athletics check, AND the opponent would have had to roll very LOW on either athletics or acrobatics to get under my roll.
We're talking about an opponent that likely rolls below a 10 for its save (a lot below unless you only target opponents that are similarly weak as you are). Even with a -1 modifier from your low STR that isn't very hard to beat, especially if you allow for using spells to boost you/debuff opponent (Guidance would be equivalent to Bane).
Save v your DC or a contested skillcheck isn't drastically different, the main difference is that anyone that's proficient in STR saves have an somewhat easier time of not being grappled.
In 2024 grapples initiated by PCs start with a successful unarmed strike. Monsters have other ways to grappling.
You probably should have read those links before you posted them.
Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
There is no attack or "to-hit" or such (and thus no damage either), there is a save and then a result.
There is a widespread pattern throughout the 2024 rules of removing contested ability checks from things and replacing them with saving throws. Likely they are trying to reduce the complexity of stuff like this and minimize the amount of time spent with multiple characters rolling dice to influence the outcome of the same event, which can waste a lot of time.
I guess a similar debate could come up about Touch spells against unwilling creatures that don't need a melee spell attack. They just need a saving throw.
For example, the 2014 Contagion spell got updated in 2024 (Contagion) to use a saving throw, but Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch still require attack rolls. I don't see a clear pattern.
I think the change here is about a design philosophy change. I think they wanted all of your combat abilities to be either saves or attacks for consistency.
Yup, it was a design philosophy change and it overall reduces the success rate of grappling since there is very little PCs can do to reduce enemy saves or increase their DCs and enemy saves tend to be much higher than enemy checks.
Yup, it was a design philosophy change and it overall reduces the success rate of grappling since there is very little PCs can do to reduce enemy saves or increase their DCs and enemy saves tend to be much higher than enemy checks.
Huh? Monsters being proficient in STR saves is quite rare, especially below CR10. Being proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics is a lot more common.
The change to Grapple makes it make more sense with a lot of things.
- Making it a save based on Str (or Dex if you're a Monk) moves grapple competency back to Str based melee characters instead of those with Expertise, it just makes a bit more narrative sense for it to be the Barbarians, Fighters, and Monks who are good at grappling. - It also makes sense to unlink it from an attack roll, because it is a control effect rather than a damaging attack. - But they also still have room for the Athletics and Acrobatics characters, because the roll to escape a grapple uses those skills. - Not even to mention that now it is unlinked from the Attack Action you can Grapple on a Opportunity Attack now, which gives Str melee characters much needed control options that they did not have before.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
In 2024 grapples initiated by PCs start with a successful unarmed strike. Monsters have other ways to grappling.
You probably should have read those links before you posted them.
Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
There is no attack or "to-hit" or such (and thus no damage either), there is a save and then a result.
This seems off to me, though RAW it does seem to be that way. And it seems odd that you don’t have to make a successful unarmed strike and then choose damage, grapple, or shove, if that’s what you are saying. I mean, what’s the point of making it part of the unarmed strike if you just declare you are grappling and you don’t have to make a “to hit” roll. They could have just kept it like 2014 but they just make the save.
This seems off to me, though RAW it does seem to be that way. And it seems odd that you don’t have to make a successful unarmed strike and then choose damage, grapple, or shove, if that’s what you are saying. I mean, what’s the point of making it part of the unarmed strike if you just declare you are grappling and you don’t have to make a “to hit” roll. They could have just kept it like 2014 but they just make the save.
That's a lot of rolling and it gives the target two different ways to mechanically prevent a grapple, which I think makes being a grappler much more difficult, this way is more simple and streamlined and makes it easier to build for, considering you don't have to account for both their AC and their saving throw.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This seems off to me, though RAW it does seem to be that way. And it seems odd that you don’t have to make a successful unarmed strike and then choose damage, grapple, or shove, if that’s what you are saying. I mean, what’s the point of making it part of the unarmed strike if you just declare you are grappling and you don’t have to make a “to hit” roll. They could have just kept it like 2014 but they just make the save.
That's a lot of rolling and it gives the target two different ways to mechanically prevent a grapple, which I think makes being a grappler much more difficult, this way is more simple and streamlined and makes it easier to build for, considering you don't have to account for both their AC and their saving throw.
I get that. I just don’t see the reason then of having it part of unarmed strikes. Maybe it saves space instead of having it its own thing?
Even in the UA I read it as having to make a successful unarmed strike and then you choose from the three options. And I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Any comment on this. Why change the rules
Yes Grapple is now a Strength or Dexterity saving throw, only they know why.
Can't say I understand why, but I can say that my 8 STR 100lb weakling Witch successfully grappled 2 monsters so far because of it. LMAO
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
If the opponent can't make a DC12 (or lower) STR save then you are quite likely to have won the contested STR check that the 2014 rules use too.
What i'm saying is that in the 2014 rules, this character had no chance to successfully grapple anything. To do so would have required that my character roll very high on an athletics check, AND the opponent would have had to roll very LOW on either athletics or acrobatics to get under my roll.
But in the 2024 rules, if my character scores a hit with an unarmed strike (not really that hard), then the opponent needs to make a save. If they roll just below average, it is likely they'll fail. Much greater odds of successfully grappling this way for this character (a 45% chance is much better than a 20% chance, etc.). Instead of relying on 2 low probability rolls to have to happen for it to succeed, I only have to rely on one slightly lower than average roll.
That means after just a couple of tries, it's likely to work - and it has - much to my amuzement and the DM's frustration when his average stat baddie trying to escape gets grappled by the village weakling that likes casting Bane (Bane didn't affect skill checks, it does affect saving throws).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
In the 2024 rules, you do not need to score a hit with an unarmed strike, correct? You just target them, they make the save or fail it and become grappled.
At level 1-4, against a monster with neither save proficiency nor athletics proficiency (typical), if the monster has, say, strength 15
Because contests have somewhat different success curves than static DCs, you have a better chance against very high str, lower chance against very low. I would note that, while bane reduces saves but not checks, hex reduces checks but not saves, and as a no save bonus action spell, is a lot easier to get off.
In 2024 grapples initiated by PCs start with a successful unarmed strike. Monsters have other ways to grappling.
Grappling PHB 2024 also Unarmed Strike PHB 2024
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
No that's not how it works. You try to grab them and they make a save and then they are either Grappled or not. And that's all that attack does so unless you have multiple attacks then you aren't dealing any damage or casting any spells or nothing such.
We're talking about an opponent that likely rolls below a 10 for its save (a lot below unless you only target opponents that are similarly weak as you are). Even with a -1 modifier from your low STR that isn't very hard to beat, especially if you allow for using spells to boost you/debuff opponent (Guidance would be equivalent to Bane).
Save v your DC or a contested skillcheck isn't drastically different, the main difference is that anyone that's proficient in STR saves have an somewhat easier time of not being grappled.
You probably should have read those links before you posted them.
There is no attack or "to-hit" or such (and thus no damage either), there is a save and then a result.
There is a widespread pattern throughout the 2024 rules of removing contested ability checks from things and replacing them with saving throws. Likely they are trying to reduce the complexity of stuff like this and minimize the amount of time spent with multiple characters rolling dice to influence the outcome of the same event, which can waste a lot of time.
pronouns: he/she/they
I guess a similar debate could come up about Touch spells against unwilling creatures that don't need a melee spell attack. They just need a saving throw.
For example, the 2014 Contagion spell got updated in 2024 (Contagion) to use a saving throw, but Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch still require attack rolls. I don't see a clear pattern.
I think the change here is about a design philosophy change. I think they wanted all of your combat abilities to be either saves or attacks for consistency.
They may have decided a Grapple falls more within the definition of a Saving Throw, which represents an attempt to evade or resist a threat.
Yup, it was a design philosophy change and it overall reduces the success rate of grappling since there is very little PCs can do to reduce enemy saves or increase their DCs and enemy saves tend to be much higher than enemy checks.
Huh? Monsters being proficient in STR saves is quite rare, especially below CR10. Being proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics is a lot more common.
The change to Grapple makes it make more sense with a lot of things.
- Making it a save based on Str (or Dex if you're a Monk) moves grapple competency back to Str based melee characters instead of those with Expertise, it just makes a bit more narrative sense for it to be the Barbarians, Fighters, and Monks who are good at grappling.
- It also makes sense to unlink it from an attack roll, because it is a control effect rather than a damaging attack.
- But they also still have room for the Athletics and Acrobatics characters, because the roll to escape a grapple uses those skills.
- Not even to mention that now it is unlinked from the Attack Action you can Grapple on a Opportunity Attack now, which gives Str melee characters much needed control options that they did not have before.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This seems off to me, though RAW it does seem to be that way. And it seems odd that you don’t have to make a successful unarmed strike and then choose damage, grapple, or shove, if that’s what you are saying. I mean, what’s the point of making it part of the unarmed strike if you just declare you are grappling and you don’t have to make a “to hit” roll. They could have just kept it like 2014 but they just make the save.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That's a lot of rolling and it gives the target two different ways to mechanically prevent a grapple, which I think makes being a grappler much more difficult, this way is more simple and streamlined and makes it easier to build for, considering you don't have to account for both their AC and their saving throw.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I get that. I just don’t see the reason then of having it part of unarmed strikes. Maybe it saves space instead of having it its own thing?
Even in the UA I read it as having to make a successful unarmed strike and then you choose from the three options. And I’m sure I’m not the only one.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?