How is the monk's stunning strike at level five not broken? Taking one enemy out for a full round of combat is potentially game winning against a boss, the monk now has virtually unlimited ki/focus points, and while it doesn't tell you how to what the save DC is, is assume 8+proficency+WIS, which means that it starts at 13 for an almost 50% chance and gets up to 18-19 for a 2/3 chance (assuming no CON save proficency on the monster's part. Saying that there are a few monsters that won't get slaughtered by it doesn't matter, unless you're happy to only use those monsters when a monk is in the party.)
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DM, writer, and blog master of https://dragonencounters.com/ a blog dedicated to providing unusual, worthwhile encounters for each monster, making each one unique.
Also, suggestions for which monsters might be found together (for people tired of dungeons full of one humanoid race, and perhaps a few beasts and undead.)
How is the monk's stunning strike at level five not broken? Taking one enemy out for a full round of combat is potentially game winning against a boss, the monk now has virtually unlimited ki/focus points, and while it doesn't tell you how to what the save DC is, is assume 8+proficency+WIS, which means that it starts at 13 for an almost 50% chance and gets up to 18-19 for a 2/3 chance (assuming no CON save proficency on the monster's part. Saying that there are a few monsters that won't get slaughtered by it doesn't matter, unless you're happy to only use those monsters when a monk is in the party.)
It is far from broken, it got a major nerf in 2024 with it being limited to once per turn (in the 2014 rules it was only limited by how many attacks/Ki-points you had). Any boss that needs to live for a encounter should have legendary resistances and thus is fairly unaffected by it. Not to mention that there are quite a few spells that have the same save-or-suck potential.
And yes the save DC = 8 + Wis mod + PB. It is specified in the base rule for using Focus Points.
Level 5: Stunning Strike
Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Monk weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can expend 1 Focus Point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target has the Stunned condition until the start of your next turn. On a successful save, the target’s Speed is halved until the start of your next turn, and the next attack roll made against the target before then has Advantage.
Less than half of all monsters are not proficient in constitution saves.
In addition to the above, some monsters have Stunning Immunity or naturally high Constitution scores. For example, an Abominable Yeti is not proficient in Constitution Saves, but has a +6 from its raw Constitution score. It's CR 9 so might be used as a boss against a level 7 (high difficulty) or 8 (moderate difficulty) party. At that point, you might have a save DC of up to 16. The Yeti, despite not having proficiency still has a 55% chance of success.
This is an ability that may or may not work and costs limited resources whether it succeeds or fails. Fortunately, it has a nice effect on a successful save, but Focus points used on Stunning Strike are not available for Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Redirecting Attacks, or any Class or Subclass features that require Focus points.
The flip side is that 2024 monks get more focus points that 2014 monks got ki. Granted, that's mostly a good thing, but it feels that a boss stands too much chance of being stunned (and being stunned for even one turn is virtually autimatic death for a boss.) Also, it being OP in 2014 doesn't make it better, it just means that it was a problem then also. Finally, the fact that there are spells that also such again doesn't help.
Maybe I have an overly critical feeling toward that aspect of D&D. Does anybody want to tell me whether or not they have problems with boss fights being ruined when the players pulled off a save or suck effect and the boss flubbed his save.
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DM, writer, and blog master of https://dragonencounters.com/ a blog dedicated to providing unusual, worthwhile encounters for each monster, making each one unique.
Also, suggestions for which monsters might be found together (for people tired of dungeons full of one humanoid race, and perhaps a few beasts and undead.)
The flip side is that 2024 monks get more focus points that 2014 monks got ki.
The maximum number of Focus Points a 2024 Monk has at any level is identical to the maximum number of Ki points a 2014 Monk has at any level. In both cases, at Monk Level 2 and above, it's equal to the character's Monk Level.
That said, the 2024 Monk has some abilities that cost fewer Focus Points than their 2014 analogues, and has Uncanny Metabolism that can fully restore Focus on an Initiative Roll once per Long Rest, so is slightly more likely to have more Focus Points available at any point in a combat.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
The flip side is that 2024 monks get more focus points that 2014 monks got ki. Granted, that's mostly a good thing, but it feels that a boss stands too much chance of being stunned (and being stunned for even one turn is virtually autimatic death for a boss.) Also, it being OP in 2014 doesn't make it better, it just means that it was a problem then also. Finally, the fact that there are spells that also such again doesn't help.
Maybe I have an overly critical feeling toward that aspect of D&D. Does anybody want to tell me whether or not they have problems with boss fights being ruined when the players pulled off a save or suck effect and the boss flubbed his save.
It was somewhat of an issue in the 2014 rules as the Monk could try several times per turn and then the chance of a boss flubbing once got quite high.
But the current version where the Monk has one chance to potentially stun a monster/boss is in no way OP. There are several abilities/spells that can stun/paralyze/frighten/something debilitating on a failed save, the Monks ability is in no way stronger than those (could well be argued that it is weaker since the DC is based on its second/third ability instead of its main ability as usual with spellcasters).
Incapacited and prone is not quite as severe as stunned it is not far off, the biggest disadvantage if being stunned is being incapacitated.
While spell slots are not as numerous as focus points hidious laughter is lasts until they make the save so the caster can do other things with their action if the save if the target fails the save again at the end of their turn. Hidious laughter can also end by breaking concentration (if an allay is available) though most casters take precautions so this is unlikely (e.g. Warcaster)
The majority of creatures have higher con saves than Wis saves so hidious laughter is more likely to succeed (both when cast and in subsequant rounds)
Hidious Laughter can lock out multiple characters by upcasting.
Hidious laughter is at least comparable to stunning strike but I never hear people complain that hidious laughtre is broken, it is generally regarded as a decent spell but not cmparable to spells like find familiar or shield.
Incapacited and prone is not quite as severe as stunned it is not far off, the biggest disadvantage if being stunned is being incapacitated.
While spell slots are not as numerous as focus points hidious laughter is lasts until they make the save so the caster can do other things with their action if the save if the target fails the save again at the end of their turn. Hidious laughter can also end by breaking concentration (if an allay is available) though most casters take precautions so this is unlikely (e.g. Warcaster)
The majority of creatures have higher con saves than Wis saves so hidious laughter is more likely to succeed (both when cast and in subsequant rounds)
Hidious Laughter can lock out multiple characters by upcasting.
Hidious laughter is at least comparable to stunning strike but I never hear people complain that hidious laughtre is broken, it is generally regarded as a decent spell but not cmparable to spells like find familiar or shield.
Also, if Tasha's Hideous Laughter lands, it can potentially last multiple turns. If you are attacking the target, it probably won't but you can use the opportunity to attack their friends while the target is stuck laughing.
So far the monk in our party rarely uses stunning strike. Despite the rules changes for monks, focus points are still at quite the premium and he would rather spend those points on flurry of blows. There are so many ways to get advantage on attack rolls now, the extra damage seems to be a better bet than possibly stunning a creature.
If your party can apply penalties to the saving throws of creatures then stunning strike can still be very powerful.
Sorry to necro this, but I wanted to add a small improvement for Stunning Strike. In 2014 it only worked with melee weapon attacks, but now it works with a Monk weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
That means Stunning Strike can now be applied to ranged attack rolls made with Monk weapons that have the Thrown property.
Also, it's nice that even if the creature saves, it still takes an effect: "Speed is halved until the start of your next turn, and the next attack roll made against the target before then has Advantage." Less all-or-nothing is generally more fun to me. As is the aforementioned no more spamming one thing for a class.
Which raises an oddity: a failed save Stuns the target, giving them Incapacitated condition, which in 2024 no longer affects speed. But a passed save here does affect speed. That seems weird. But not a huge deal. I think they wanted to give Stunned/Incapacitated still a way for a creature to do something (move), but it's counter-intuitive to me.
Broadly, I sympathzie with OP. Conditions like Stun and others that just remove agency can be problematic for power and fun - for players & DMs - but in my opinion, should still be part of the game. Monk's once-per-turn change is a good limitation. But also, I think it'd make sense for more tools to remove conditions like Stunned, like Lesser Restoration or Lay on Hands. If they heal Paralyzed, Stunned also makes sense. More recourse via spending resources keeps things dynamic I think.
Which raises an oddity: a failed save Stuns the target, giving them Incapacitated condition, which in 2024 no longer affects speed. But a passed save here does affect speed. That seems weird. But not a huge deal. I think they wanted to give Stunned/Incapacitated still a way for a creature to do something (move), but it's counter-intuitive to me.
I've noticed a few oddities like this in the 2024 rules with things that have fundamentally different effects for a successful save as opposed to a failed one (e.g. creatures who are immune to Charmed are affected by Otto's Irresistible Dance for a turn if they succeed on their save, but not if they fail it) and there are enough of them that it feels like it has to have been deliberate, or at the very least not a total oversight. They all seem very weird from a narrative perspective even if they work from a mechanical perspective.
But also, I think it'd make sense for more tools to remove conditions like Stunned, like Lesser Restoration or Lay on Hands. If they heal Paralyzed, Stunned also makes sense. More recourse via spending resources keeps things dynamic I think.
Lay on Hands can now remove the Stunned condition, but not until class level 14, which seems a bit high to me. It feels like Greater Restorationshould be able to do it but it's still not on the list of things it can do.
Sorry to necro this, but I wanted to add a small improvement for Stunning Strike. In 2014 it only worked with melee weapon attacks, but now it works with a Monk weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
That means Stunning Strike can now be applied to ranged attack rolls made with Monk weapons that have the Thrown property.
Yup that has come in clutch for us recently in the campaign i am playing in. A flying caster enemy was hard to get a handle on it had a displacement like effect so we had disadvantage attacking it, I got lucky with a thrown dagger and stunned it. I don't think it was OP as I was down to 2 ki points and only had 5 max and at the start of the fight, but I needed to use flurry of blows every round for a while to clear the low hit point hordes. Fun detail in the fight was I and one other player got set on fire round one, we never had an opportunity to douse ourselves until after the fight was done. Out actions were always needed more than stopping 1d4 damage. And it was not a short fight.
Broadly, I sympathzie with OP. Conditions like Stun and others that just remove agency can be problematic for power and fun - for players & DMs - but in my opinion, should still be part of the game. Monk's once-per-turn change is a good limitation. But also, I think it'd make sense for more tools to remove conditions like Stunned, like Lesser Restoration or Lay on Hands. If they heal Paralyzed, Stunned also makes sense. More recourse via spending resources keeps things dynamic I think.
Obviously peoples tastes vary. But maybe because I come from old school games where this was much harsher. But I sort of enjoy when i'm held or whatever. Yeah, i lose an action, but I focus on the tension and threat, heck back in the day they could one shot you when held. I don't know that creates drama imo. But sure yeah they probably should have more ways to break effects. More effects should have a hypnotic pattern break as well, some mundane method to break it. Like fear effects should be able to be broken by performance checks.
Broadly, I sympathzie with OP. Conditions like Stun and others that just remove agency can be problematic for power and fun - for players & DMs - but in my opinion, should still be part of the game. Monk's once-per-turn change is a good limitation. But also, I think it'd make sense for more tools to remove conditions like Stunned, like Lesser Restoration or Lay on Hands. If they heal Paralyzed, Stunned also makes sense. More recourse via spending resources keeps things dynamic I think.
Obviously peoples tastes vary. But maybe because I come from old school games where this was much harsher. But I sort of enjoy when i'm held or whatever. Yeah, i lose an action, but I focus on the tension and threat, heck back in the day they could one shot you when held. I don't know that creates drama imo. But sure yeah they probably should have more ways to break effects. More effects should have a hypnotic pattern break as well, some mundane method to break it. Like fear effects should be able to be broken by performance checks.
That’s a good attitude to have. I do enjoy other people’s turns and the tension, as you said.
I think if I were playing longer 5-hr sessions with multiple combats, I’d feel more freedom for the ups & downs. But with shorter sessions and inconsistent scheduling (due to life), I feel more of a need to make the most of the time and get to engage.
Which raises an oddity: a failed save Stuns the target, giving them Incapacitated condition, which in 2024 no longer affects speed. But a passed save here does affect speed. That seems weird. But not a huge deal. I think they wanted to give Stunned/Incapacitated still a way for a creature to do something (move), but it's counter-intuitive to me.
I've noticed a few oddities like this in the 2024 rules with things that have fundamentally different effects for a successful save as opposed to a failed one (e.g. creatures who are immune to Charmed are affected by Otto's Irresistible Dance for a turn if they succeed on their save, but not if they fail it) and there are enough of them that it feels like it has to have been deliberate, or at the very least not a total oversight. They all seem very weird from a narrative perspective even if they work from a mechanical perspective.
But also, I think it'd make sense for more tools to remove conditions like Stunned, like Lesser Restoration or Lay on Hands. If they heal Paralyzed, Stunned also makes sense. More recourse via spending resources keeps things dynamic I think.
Lay on Hands can now remove the Stunned condition, but not until class level 14, which seems a bit high to me. It feels like Greater Restorationshould be able to do it but it's still not on the list of things it can do.
Oh yes that's right, good. But not til level 14 is tough. Being just one round, perhaps the designers figured people wouldn't want to use a resource on an effect that would wear off. That said, if Lesser Restoration can cure Paralyzed, it should cure Stunned IMHO.
I guess it's tougher on an enemy, who once Stunned can be in dire straights. A stun on the strongest enemy can of course really turn the battle.
Another small nerf to Stunning Strike in 2024, it now ends at the beginning of your next turn, not the end. The overall effect is still much the same, but it means you no longer get Advantage against that enemy on your next turn.
Another small nerf to Stunning Strike in 2024, it now ends at the beginning of your next turn, not the end. The overall effect is still much the same, but it means you no longer get Advantage against that enemy on your next turn.
Yes, but now, even if they succeed on the save, the target's speed is halved and you have advantage on your next attack. Is that a good trade? I'm going to lean towards no, but at between grappling, and topple monk weapons, you have a few other options to give everyone advantage on attack rolls, hopefully for an extended amount of time.
Also, it's nice that even if the creature saves, it still takes an effect: "Speed is halved until the start of your next turn, and the next attack roll made against the target before then has Advantage." Less all-or-nothing is generally more fun to me. As is the aforementioned no more spamming one thing for a class.
Which raises an oddity: a failed save Stuns the target, giving them Incapacitated condition, which in 2024 no longer affects speed. But a passed save here does affect speed. That seems weird. But not a huge deal. I think they wanted to give Stunned/Incapacitated still a way for a creature to do something (move), but it's counter-intuitive to me. [...]
How is the monk's stunning strike at level five not broken? Taking one enemy out for a full round of combat is potentially game winning against a boss, the monk now has virtually unlimited ki/focus points, and while it doesn't tell you how to what the save DC is, is assume 8+proficency+WIS, which means that it starts at 13 for an almost 50% chance and gets up to 18-19 for a 2/3 chance (assuming no CON save proficency on the monster's part. Saying that there are a few monsters that won't get slaughtered by it doesn't matter, unless you're happy to only use those monsters when a monk is in the party.)
DM, writer, and blog master of https://dragonencounters.com/ a blog dedicated to providing unusual, worthwhile encounters for each monster, making each one unique.
Also, suggestions for which monsters might be found together (for people tired of dungeons full of one humanoid race, and perhaps a few beasts and undead.)
It is far from broken, it got a major nerf in 2024 with it being limited to once per turn (in the 2014 rules it was only limited by how many attacks/Ki-points you had). Any boss that needs to live for a encounter should have legendary resistances and thus is fairly unaffected by it. Not to mention that there are quite a few spells that have the same save-or-suck potential.
And yes the save DC = 8 + Wis mod + PB. It is specified in the base rule for using Focus Points.
Less than half of all monsters are not proficient in constitution saves.
In addition to the above, some monsters have Stunning Immunity or naturally high Constitution scores. For example, an Abominable Yeti is not proficient in Constitution Saves, but has a +6 from its raw Constitution score. It's CR 9 so might be used as a boss against a level 7 (high difficulty) or 8 (moderate difficulty) party. At that point, you might have a save DC of up to 16. The Yeti, despite not having proficiency still has a 55% chance of success.
This is an ability that may or may not work and costs limited resources whether it succeeds or fails. Fortunately, it has a nice effect on a successful save, but Focus points used on Stunning Strike are not available for Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Redirecting Attacks, or any Class or Subclass features that require Focus points.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The flip side is that 2024 monks get more focus points that 2014 monks got ki. Granted, that's mostly a good thing, but it feels that a boss stands too much chance of being stunned (and being stunned for even one turn is virtually autimatic death for a boss.) Also, it being OP in 2014 doesn't make it better, it just means that it was a problem then also. Finally, the fact that there are spells that also such again doesn't help.
Maybe I have an overly critical feeling toward that aspect of D&D. Does anybody want to tell me whether or not they have problems with boss fights being ruined when the players pulled off a save or suck effect and the boss flubbed his save.
DM, writer, and blog master of https://dragonencounters.com/ a blog dedicated to providing unusual, worthwhile encounters for each monster, making each one unique.
Also, suggestions for which monsters might be found together (for people tired of dungeons full of one humanoid race, and perhaps a few beasts and undead.)
The maximum number of Focus Points a 2024 Monk has at any level is identical to the maximum number of Ki points a 2014 Monk has at any level. In both cases, at Monk Level 2 and above, it's equal to the character's Monk Level.
That said, the 2024 Monk has some abilities that cost fewer Focus Points than their 2014 analogues, and has Uncanny Metabolism that can fully restore Focus on an Initiative Roll once per Long Rest, so is slightly more likely to have more Focus Points available at any point in a combat.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
It was somewhat of an issue in the 2014 rules as the Monk could try several times per turn and then the chance of a boss flubbing once got quite high.
But the current version where the Monk has one chance to potentially stun a monster/boss is in no way OP. There are several abilities/spells that can stun/paralyze/frighten/something debilitating on a failed save, the Monks ability is in no way stronger than those (could well be argued that it is weaker since the DC is based on its second/third ability instead of its main ability as usual with spellcasters).
Compare stunning strike with Hidious Laughter.
Hidious laughter is at least comparable to stunning strike but I never hear people complain that hidious laughtre is broken, it is generally regarded as a decent spell but not cmparable to spells like find familiar or shield.
Also, if Tasha's Hideous Laughter lands, it can potentially last multiple turns. If you are attacking the target, it probably won't but you can use the opportunity to attack their friends while the target is stuck laughing.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
So far the monk in our party rarely uses stunning strike. Despite the rules changes for monks, focus points are still at quite the premium and he would rather spend those points on flurry of blows. There are so many ways to get advantage on attack rolls now, the extra damage seems to be a better bet than possibly stunning a creature.
If your party can apply penalties to the saving throws of creatures then stunning strike can still be very powerful.
Sorry to necro this, but I wanted to add a small improvement for Stunning Strike. In 2014 it only worked with melee weapon attacks, but now it works with a Monk weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
That means Stunning Strike can now be applied to ranged attack rolls made with Monk weapons that have the Thrown property.
Also, it's nice that even if the creature saves, it still takes an effect: "Speed is halved until the start of your next turn, and the next attack roll made against the target before then has Advantage." Less all-or-nothing is generally more fun to me. As is the aforementioned no more spamming one thing for a class.
Which raises an oddity: a failed save Stuns the target, giving them Incapacitated condition, which in 2024 no longer affects speed. But a passed save here does affect speed. That seems weird. But not a huge deal. I think they wanted to give Stunned/Incapacitated still a way for a creature to do something (move), but it's counter-intuitive to me.
Broadly, I sympathzie with OP. Conditions like Stun and others that just remove agency can be problematic for power and fun - for players & DMs - but in my opinion, should still be part of the game. Monk's once-per-turn change is a good limitation. But also, I think it'd make sense for more tools to remove conditions like Stunned, like Lesser Restoration or Lay on Hands. If they heal Paralyzed, Stunned also makes sense. More recourse via spending resources keeps things dynamic I think.
I've noticed a few oddities like this in the 2024 rules with things that have fundamentally different effects for a successful save as opposed to a failed one (e.g. creatures who are immune to Charmed are affected by Otto's Irresistible Dance for a turn if they succeed on their save, but not if they fail it) and there are enough of them that it feels like it has to have been deliberate, or at the very least not a total oversight. They all seem very weird from a narrative perspective even if they work from a mechanical perspective.
Lay on Hands can now remove the Stunned condition, but not until class level 14, which seems a bit high to me. It feels like Greater Restoration should be able to do it but it's still not on the list of things it can do.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yup that has come in clutch for us recently in the campaign i am playing in. A flying caster enemy was hard to get a handle on it had a displacement like effect so we had disadvantage attacking it, I got lucky with a thrown dagger and stunned it. I don't think it was OP as I was down to 2 ki points and only had 5 max and at the start of the fight, but I needed to use flurry of blows every round for a while to clear the low hit point hordes. Fun detail in the fight was I and one other player got set on fire round one, we never had an opportunity to douse ourselves until after the fight was done. Out actions were always needed more than stopping 1d4 damage. And it was not a short fight.
Obviously peoples tastes vary. But maybe because I come from old school games where this was much harsher. But I sort of enjoy when i'm held or whatever. Yeah, i lose an action, but I focus on the tension and threat, heck back in the day they could one shot you when held. I don't know that creates drama imo. But sure yeah they probably should have more ways to break effects. More effects should have a hypnotic pattern break as well, some mundane method to break it. Like fear effects should be able to be broken by performance checks.
That’s a good attitude to have. I do enjoy other people’s turns and the tension, as you said.
I think if I were playing longer 5-hr sessions with multiple combats, I’d feel more freedom for the ups & downs. But with shorter sessions and inconsistent scheduling (due to life), I feel more of a need to make the most of the time and get to engage.
Oh yes that's right, good. But not til level 14 is tough. Being just one round, perhaps the designers figured people wouldn't want to use a resource on an effect that would wear off. That said, if Lesser Restoration can cure Paralyzed, it should cure Stunned IMHO.
I guess it's tougher on an enemy, who once Stunned can be in dire straights. A stun on the strongest enemy can of course really turn the battle.
Another small nerf to Stunning Strike in 2024, it now ends at the beginning of your next turn, not the end. The overall effect is still much the same, but it means you no longer get Advantage against that enemy on your next turn.
Yes, but now, even if they succeed on the save, the target's speed is halved and you have advantage on your next attack. Is that a good trade? I'm going to lean towards no, but at between grappling, and topple monk weapons, you have a few other options to give everyone advantage on attack rolls, hopefully for an extended amount of time.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I shared here 2024 Monk Stunning Strike and the Stunned condition - the creature can now run away at full speed when stunned? the SAC answer related to that: