My main question is: if you double Divine Smite or Hex dice for a critical hit in cases 4 and 5, why not include them in Great Weapon Fighting?
I mean, we have the wording "damage for an attack" in Great Weapon Fighting: "When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon [...] "
And a similar wording in Critical Hits: "A Critical Hit lets you roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target [...]"
GWF should then include the weapon's damage and extra damage from Hunter's Mark, Hex, Sneak Attack, Smite spells or True Strike (at higher levels).
Unless "when you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding..." should be interpreted as "when you roll damage from the Melee weapon that you are holding..." as the SAC is trying to explain.
Good point. Is there a 2014 equivalent to True Strike (effect that makes an attack with extra dice) that might reinforce the ruling or shed light on this particular scenario?
SAC does mention that they will also carry Sneak Attack's damage if the conditions for it are met, but doesn't say anything about Savage Attacker.
It's worth noting that while similar to True Strike, Booming blade and Green-flame's damage are delayed compared to the weapon's damage, and it's fair to assume that this delayed damage shouldn't be rerolled or altered under GWF, if only because it isn't the weapon itself causing the damage, but the magic added by the spell. So even though they're very similar to True Strike, they're not the same either, as True Strike deals all the damage at once... One could also argue that this gives a hint regarding the spirit in which 2024 True Strike was made, and therefore we should give it the same treatment as Booming blade and Green-flame.
My main question is: if you double Divine Smite or Hex dice for a critical hit in cases 4 and 5, why not include them in Great Weapon Fighting?
I mean, we have the wording "damage for an attack" in Great Weapon Fighting: "When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon [...] "
And a similar wording in Critical Hits: "A Critical Hit lets you roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target [...]"
GWF should then include the weapon's damage and extra damage from Hunter's Mark, Hex, Sneak Attack, Smite spells or True Strike (at higher levels).
Unless "when you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding..." should be interpreted as "when you roll damage from the Melee weapon that you are holding..." as the SAC is trying to explain.
Good point. Is there a 2014 equivalent to True Strike (effect that makes an attack with extra dice) that might reinforce the ruling or shed light on this particular scenario?
If we're parsing a difference between the weapon's damage and the attack's damage, things like elemental weapon would fall into the former category. Both the 2014 and 2024 versions specify that the weapon is doing extra damage when it hits:
A nonmagical weapon you touch becomes a magic weapon. Choose one of the following damage types: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. For the duration, the weapon has a +1 bonus to attack rolls and deals an extra 1d4 damage of the chosen type when it hits.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My main question is: if you double Divine Smite or Hex dice for a critical hit in cases 4 and 5, why not include them in Great Weapon Fighting?
I mean, we have the wording "damage for an attack" in Great Weapon Fighting: "When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon [...] "
And a similar wording in Critical Hits: "A Critical Hit lets you roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target [...]"
GWF should then include the weapon's damage and extra damage from Hunter's Mark, Hex, Sneak Attack, Smite spells or True Strike (at higher levels).
Unless "when you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding..." should be interpreted as "when you roll damage from the Melee weapon that you are holding..." as the SAC is trying to explain.
Good point. Is there a 2014 equivalent to True Strike (effect that makes an attack with extra dice) that might reinforce the ruling or shed light on this particular scenario?
@Natrel mentioned the two examples I was thinking about.
So, for example, starting at 5th level, I interpret the extra damage for the primary target in Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade should be rolled for GWF or critical hits.
So, for example, starting at 5th level, I interpret the extra damage for the primary target in Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade should be rolled for GWF or critical hits.
Considering that GWF isn't such a great feat in the first place, I'd argue that while it might be questionable from a RAW standpoint, it is good for balance.
SAC does mention that they will also carry Sneak Attack's damage if the conditions for it are met, but doesn't say anything about Savage Attacker.
It's worth noting that while similar to True Strike, Booming blade and Green-flame's damage are delayed compared to the weapon's damage, and it's fair to assume that this delayed damage shouldn't be rerolled or altered under GWF, if only because it isn't the weapon itself causing the damage, but the magic added by the spell. So even though they're very similar to True Strike, they're not the same either, as True Strike deals all the damage at once... One could also argue that this gives a hint regarding the spirit in which 2024 True Strike was made, and therefore we should give it the same treatment as Booming blade and Green-flame.
The Great Weapon Fighting feature—which is shared by fighters and paladins—is meant to benefit only the damage roll of the weapon used with the feature. For example, if you use a greatsword with the feature, you can reroll any 1 or 2 you roll on the weapon’s 2d6. If you’re a paladin and use Divine Smite with the greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting doesn’t let you reroll a 1 or 2 that you roll for the damage of Divine Smite.
Emphasis added.
I guess True Stike would be excluded as well. That still leaves the question of weapon properties like Flaming and Vicious (and Elemental Weapon. I suspect it's the same.
I'm not so sure. That's what I meant in the post you quoted. While you can't argue that the damage of booming blade and green-flame are part of the weapon's damage, you could make that argument for True Strike. The d6 is part of the damage roll made with the weapon, after all, just like it would be if I used an enchanted weapon that deals an extra die of elemental damage (an in that case, the extra damage would unequivocally be part of the weapon)
Also, I'm not sure this particular ruling applies to True Strike. Divine Smite uses a bonus action. Hex (and Spirit Shroud, and 2024 CME) are separate spells with different action times. 2024 True Strike, however, merges its effect with the weapon's damage roll, and is part of the attack roll.
The passage you emphasized says itself "the damage roll of the weapon", i.e. the damage dealt by the weapon at the moment of the damage roll (which is precisely what True Strike alters), not the damage of the weapon as it's written in the weapon's description.
Good point. Is there a 2014 equivalent to True Strike (effect that makes an attack with extra dice) that might reinforce the ruling or shed light on this particular scenario?
How to add Tooltips.
Booming blade and Green-flame are the closest thing.
There is 1 ruling involving these spells: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA188
SAC does mention that they will also carry Sneak Attack's damage if the conditions for it are met, but doesn't say anything about Savage Attacker.
It's worth noting that while similar to True Strike, Booming blade and Green-flame's damage are delayed compared to the weapon's damage, and it's fair to assume that this delayed damage shouldn't be rerolled or altered under GWF, if only because it isn't the weapon itself causing the damage, but the magic added by the spell.
So even though they're very similar to True Strike, they're not the same either, as True Strike deals all the damage at once...
One could also argue that this gives a hint regarding the spirit in which 2024 True Strike was made, and therefore we should give it the same treatment as Booming blade and Green-flame.
If we're parsing a difference between the weapon's damage and the attack's damage, things like elemental weapon would fall into the former category. Both the 2014 and 2024 versions specify that the weapon is doing extra damage when it hits:
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@Natrel mentioned the two examples I was thinking about.
So, for example, starting at 5th level, I interpret the extra damage for the primary target in Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade should be rolled for GWF or critical hits.
Considering that GWF isn't such a great feat in the first place, I'd argue that while it might be questionable from a RAW standpoint, it is good for balance.
Actually, there is already a ruling for Green-flame Blade and Booming Blade with Great Weapon Fighting.
Emphasis added.
I guess True Stike would be excluded as well. That still leaves the question of weapon properties like Flaming and Vicious (and Elemental Weapon. I suspect it's the same.
How to add Tooltips.
I'm not so sure. That's what I meant in the post you quoted. While you can't argue that the damage of booming blade and green-flame are part of the weapon's damage, you could make that argument for True Strike. The d6 is part of the damage roll made with the weapon, after all, just like it would be if I used an enchanted weapon that deals an extra die of elemental damage (an in that case, the extra damage would unequivocally be part of the weapon)
Also, I'm not sure this particular ruling applies to True Strike. Divine Smite uses a bonus action. Hex (and Spirit Shroud, and 2024 CME) are separate spells with different action times. 2024 True Strike, however, merges its effect with the weapon's damage roll, and is part of the attack roll.
The passage you emphasized says itself "the damage roll of the weapon", i.e. the damage dealt by the weapon at the moment of the damage roll (which is precisely what True Strike alters), not the damage of the weapon as it's written in the weapon's description.
At this point, I think we need need clarification via errata or an updated SAC.