So the 2024 grasping vine has a weird mechanic that I want to see how DMs would rule on.
This is the wording of the spell.
"You conjure a vine that sprouts from a surface in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The vine lasts for the duration.
Make a melee spell attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine. On a hit, the target takes 4d8 Bludgeoning damage and is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine; if the target is Huge or smaller, it has the Grappled condition (escape DC equal to your spell save DC). The vine can grapple only one creature at a time, and you can cause the vine to release a Grappled creature (no action required).
As a Bonus Action on your later turns, you can repeat the attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine. Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4."
And this is the wording of the grappled condition.
"While you have the Grappled condition, you experience the following effects.
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t increase.
Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it."
The spell specifically says the the vine does the grappling. It doesn't say you can only grapple one creature with the vine, it says the vine can only grapple one creature and even uses the same language in the up casting benefits. Does that mean 1 the creature has disadvantage to hit the caster too since it's the vine not the caster grappling. If the caster is grappling then the target doesn't get disadvantage against the caster. And 2 can the caster take advantage of the moveable effect of grappled and move the target even from the distance or since the vine is technically grappling the caster cannot.
Both questions boil down to is the vine grappling or the caster in my opinion. I don't think you can rule that the vine is grappling and let the caster move the target. I also don't think you can rule that the caster is grappling and prevent them from moving the target.
I haven't found any discussion about this so I figured I'd start one. What's your take? How would you rule the interaction?
Since the vine in this case is the grappler as opposed to the caster, the caster is attacked normally with Disadvantage and cannot drag or carry it when it moves.
When you say attacked normally do you mean with disadvantage like is normal for attacking creatures other than the grappler or so you mean a straight roll?
two questions: "the vine can only grapple one creature at a time" and "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4"
does that mean that the vine gets extra attacks when cast at a higher level? I think the wording of the spell is ambiguous enough to support either the interpretation that it can attack a number of times equal to the spell level minus three, or that the vine can only attack if it is grappling fewer creatures than the spell level minus four.
second question. when the vine drops the creature it has pulled 30 feet up a wall, when does the fall damage happen? I would rule immediately after the release.
I would say that if you can only grasp one creature at a time, if you attempt to grapple a second one with the vine, you lose the grapple on the first creature. If you cast the spell at a higher level, you can grapple an additional creature per spell level second creature without losing a previous grapple. EDIT: And to clarify, each grapple attempt would be on a different turn, you can't make more than one attempt per turn.
Yes, a creature immediately falls, it does not wait for its turn, Wile. E. Coyote style, to realize it is not standing on anything solid to fall.
No using a Higher-Level Spell Slot to cast Grasping Vinedoesn't increase the number of attacks it can make as a Bonus Action, but the number of creatures the vine can grapple as normally the vine can grapple only one creature at a time.
I would also rule that causing the vine to release a Grappled creature from the air would immediately fall and take damage accordingly.
The language is there to cover two different situations - normal casting (SL4) and upcasting (SL5+). Normal you can only grapple one foe at a time. Upcast you can grapple one foe plus one additional foe for each level above L4, so 2 foes if cast as a L5 spell and 6 foes if cast as a L9 spell. You get the extra grapple attacks because you are using more limited resources.
To me it seems the upcast version implies that there is an additional attack to be able to grapple an additonal creature per upcast level. And furthermore, that your reply seems to have the same interpretation. It would seem strange that you should use multiple rounds to be able to grapple the additional creatures, and you would then get diminishing returns on the upcasted version of the spell.
To me it seems the upcast version implies that there is an additional attack to be able to grapple an additonal creature per upcast level. And furthermore, that your reply seems to have the same interpretation. It would seem strange that you should use multiple rounds to be able to grapple the additional creatures, and you would then get diminishing returns on the upcasted version of the spell.
Grappling is an ongoing effect, so it works without any extra attacks.
Since the primary point of the spell is attacking for 4d8 damage a round as a bonus action, while also immobilizing enemies so they can't get to the caster to stop it, multiple attacks for upcast would likely be considered excessive.
Neither the number of attacks nor the frequency of attacks is increased by upcasting.
The spell allows you to make one spell attack against one creature when cast and then one spell attack against one creature as a Bonus Action on each of your future turns. These spell attacks could be against the same creature over and over again (whether or not that creature is grappled), or it can be against different creatures.
When the attack hits, the target creature is always pulled 0 - 30 feet towards the vine. It's unclear to me if the spellcaster has the choice of how far this creature will be pulled, or if the creature is always pulled as far as possible (possibly not able to be pulled all the way if that space is already occupied by another creature, for example).
When the attack hits, you also have the option to cause the vine to grapple that target creature if you have not already reached the maximum number of creatures that can be grappled by this effect. That maximum number of grappled creatures can be increased by upcasting.
As for the OP's questions:
1. The vine is the grappler.
2. The Movable clause of the Grappled condition will have no effect in this case because the vine itself cannot move. Note that this does not affect the "is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine" portion of the spell since that effect is not a result of a Grapple, it is included in the attack.
EDIT: Upon a closer reading, applying the Grappled condition is not optional, it happens automatically on a hit.
This poses a separate question about whether or not a 2nd creature can even be targeted by this attack in the first place if you've already reached the number of grappled creatures that can be grappled by this effect prior to this attack. I can think of 3 possible interpretations:
1. The grappled creature must be released first. THEN, a 2nd creature can be targeted for an attack. In this case, on a miss you will end up with 0 grappled creatures.
2. The grappled creature can be released at the instant the 2nd creature is hit in order to make room for that 2nd creature to be grappled by that hit.
3. The attack against the 2nd creature proceeds as normal, but then if the 1st creature was never released then the 2nd creature simply doesn't get grappled at the end of resolving that attack.
I'm actually not sure which of those three possibilities would be the RAW for this mechanic -- I'd be interested to see some opinions on it.
This poses a separate question about whether or not a 2nd creature can even be targeted by this attack in the first place if you've already reached the number of grappled creatures that can be grappled by this effect prior to this attack. I can think of 3 possible interpretations:
1. The grappled creature must be released first. THEN, a 2nd creature can be targeted for an attack. In this case, on a miss you will end up with 0 grappled creatures.
2. The grappled creature can be released at the instant the 2nd creature is hit in order to make room for that 2nd creature to be grappled by that hit.
3. The attack against the 2nd creature proceeds as normal, but then if the 1st creature was never released then the 2nd creature simply doesn't get grappled at the end of resolving that attack.
I'm actually not sure which of those three possibilities would be the RAW for this mechanic -- I'd be interested to see some opinions on it.
IT says that you can attack "a creature", with no restrictions. If hit, they're auto-grappled, but the grapplee count is limited. Releasing a grapplee is a positive action on the caster's part.
Therefore, you can attack whoever, and if you're already at max grapple, they aren't grappled. (But they are pulled.) Successful grappling is not a precondition of either the damage or the pull. If you're full, it's just like if the target were huge.
Good call, there is already that clause that the grapple fails if the target is larger than Huge, so even though it is an auto-grapple the grapple portion of the procedure might fail even though the damage and the pull have already succeeded. That makes sense.
1st since the vine is grappling then it's basically debuffing by giving disadvantage on all attacks, moving the target 30ft, and rooting the target. When you include the damage that's pretty powerful for a bonus action concentration spell. Even with the size restriction this can seriously hinder adult dragons, hydras, and a lot of other high CR monsters that rely on attacks, especially melee attacks.
Question:
Since the vine is grappling and the range of the vine's attack is 30ft would misty step be able to break out of the vine's grapple if the target is in the square above the vine?
If the target tries to go horizontally away using misty step it is still in the vine's range and nothing in misty step says that it breaks grapples. The only rule I could fine on escaping a grapple is this, "Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Teleportation usually breaks a grapple because they move the creature outside of the grappler's range, but this wouldn't unless the creature misty steps straight up.
Since the vine is grappling and the range of the vine's attack is 30ft would misty step be able to break out of the vine's grapple if the target is in the square above the vine?
If the target tries to go horizontally away using misty step it is still in the vine's range and nothing in misty step says that it breaks grapples. The only rule I could fine on escaping a grapple is this, "Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Teleportation usually breaks a grapple because they move the creature outside of the grappler's range, but this wouldn't unless the creature misty steps straight up.
I'd say yes, because in my opinion, the grapple's range isn't 30 ft, but the distance between you and the vine at the moment you were grappled.
Since the vine is grappling and the range of the vine's attack is 30ft would misty step be able to break out of the vine's grapple if the target is in the square above the vine?
If the target tries to go horizontally away using misty step it is still in the vine's range and nothing in misty step says that it breaks grapples. The only rule I could fine on escaping a grapple is this, "Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Teleportation usually breaks a grapple because they move the creature outside of the grappler's range, but this wouldn't unless the creature misty steps straight up.
I'd say yes, because in my opinion, the grapple's range isn't 30 ft, but the distance between you and the vine at the moment you were grappled.
I would argue that the grapple's range is the full range in which the grappling attack can be made.
Conceptually, the grapple is broken because the moved creature physically cannot hold the victim anymore. The vine/tentacle/arm is only so long. If it's 30 feet long, then 31 feet is too much.
Of course, the rule is an abstraction designed for the typical "I grab him with my hands" grapple, so it's going to get weirder the further you get from that. It also doesn't handle teleportation fully -- if I'm grappling you, and you misty step from right in front of me to right behind me, RAW, you're still grappled.
So, RAW, you need to get out of the 30 foot radius, but GMs should allow most teleports break most grapples.
I would argue that the grapple's range is the full range in which the grappling attack can be made.
Conceptually, the grapple is broken because the moved creature physically cannot hold the victim anymore. The vine/tentacle/arm is only so long. If it's 30 feet long, then 31 feet is too much.
Of course, the rule is an abstraction designed for the typical "I grab him with my hands" grapple, so it's going to get weirder the further you get from that. It also doesn't handle teleportation fully -- if I'm grappling you, and you misty step from right in front of me to right behind me, RAW, you're still grappled.
So, RAW, you need to get out of the 30 foot radius, but GMs should allow most teleports break most grapples.
I agree with you the condition ends if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range of 30 feet, in this case while a Grasping Vine is not a creature, however a grapple is initiated, it follows these rules, including how Escaping a Grapple can occur.
Since the vine is grappling and the range of the vine's attack is 30ft would misty step be able to break out of the vine's grapple if the target is in the square above the vine?
If the target tries to go horizontally away using misty step it is still in the vine's range and nothing in misty step says that it breaks grapples. The only rule I could fine on escaping a grapple is this, "Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Teleportation usually breaks a grapple because they move the creature outside of the grappler's range, but this wouldn't unless the creature misty steps straight up.
I'd say yes, because in my opinion, the grapple's range isn't 30 ft, but the distance between you and the vine at the moment you were grappled.
I would argue that the grapple's range is the full range in which the grappling attack can be made.
Conceptually, the grapple is broken because the moved creature physically cannot hold the victim anymore. The vine/tentacle/arm is only so long. If it's 30 feet long, then 31 feet is too much.
Honestly, that was the other option I was considering.
Of course, the rule is an abstraction designed for the typical "I grab him with my hands" grapple, so it's going to get weirder the further you get from that. It also doesn't handle teleportation fully -- if I'm grappling you, and you misty step from right in front of me to right behind me, RAW, you're still grappled.
Yeah, I concur it's RAW, but it's also odd. For example, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements, you could maintain your grapple even when the grappled target teleports within 15 feet of you.
So the 2024 grasping vine has a weird mechanic that I want to see how DMs would rule on.
This is the wording of the spell.
"You conjure a vine that sprouts from a surface in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The vine lasts for the duration.
Make a melee spell attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine. On a hit, the target takes 4d8 Bludgeoning damage and is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine; if the target is Huge or smaller, it has the Grappled condition (escape DC equal to your spell save DC). The vine can grapple only one creature at a time, and you can cause the vine to release a Grappled creature (no action required).
As a Bonus Action on your later turns, you can repeat the attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine. Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4."
And this is the wording of the grappled condition.
"While you have the Grappled condition, you experience the following effects.
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t increase.
Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it."
The spell specifically says the the vine does the grappling. It doesn't say you can only grapple one creature with the vine, it says the vine can only grapple one creature and even uses the same language in the up casting benefits. Does that mean 1 the creature has disadvantage to hit the caster too since it's the vine not the caster grappling. If the caster is grappling then the target doesn't get disadvantage against the caster. And 2 can the caster take advantage of the moveable effect of grappled and move the target even from the distance or since the vine is technically grappling the caster cannot.
Both questions boil down to is the vine grappling or the caster in my opinion. I don't think you can rule that the vine is grappling and let the caster move the target. I also don't think you can rule that the caster is grappling and prevent them from moving the target.
I haven't found any discussion about this so I figured I'd start one. What's your take? How would you rule the interaction?
Since the vine in this case is the grappler as opposed to the caster, the caster is attacked normally with Disadvantage and cannot drag or carry it when it moves.
Edited for clarity
When you say attacked normally do you mean with disadvantage like is normal for attacking creatures other than the grappler or so you mean a straight roll?
I meant to say the grappled creature would have Disadvantage on attack rolls against the caster and edited my post for clarity.
two questions: "the vine can only grapple one creature at a time" and "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4"
does that mean that the vine gets extra attacks when cast at a higher level? I think the wording of the spell is ambiguous enough to support either the interpretation that it can attack a number of times equal to the spell level minus three, or that the vine can only attack if it is grappling fewer creatures than the spell level minus four.
second question. when the vine drops the creature it has pulled 30 feet up a wall, when does the fall damage happen? I would rule immediately after the release.
I would say that if you can only grasp one creature at a time, if you attempt to grapple a second one with the vine, you lose the grapple on the first creature. If you cast the spell at a higher level, you can grapple an additional creature per spell level second creature without losing a previous grapple. EDIT: And to clarify, each grapple attempt would be on a different turn, you can't make more than one attempt per turn.
Yes, a creature immediately falls, it does not wait for its turn, Wile. E. Coyote style, to realize it is not standing on anything solid to fall.
No using a Higher-Level Spell Slot to cast Grasping Vine doesn't increase the number of attacks it can make as a Bonus Action, but the number of creatures the vine can grapple as normally the vine can grapple only one creature at a time.
I would also rule that causing the vine to release a Grappled creature from the air would immediately fall and take damage accordingly.
The language is there to cover two different situations - normal casting (SL4) and upcasting (SL5+). Normal you can only grapple one foe at a time. Upcast you can grapple one foe plus one additional foe for each level above L4, so 2 foes if cast as a L5 spell and 6 foes if cast as a L9 spell. You get the extra grapple attacks because you are using more limited resources.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To me it seems the upcast version implies that there is an additional attack to be able to grapple an additonal creature per upcast level. And furthermore, that your reply seems to have the same interpretation. It would seem strange that you should use multiple rounds to be able to grapple the additional creatures, and you would then get diminishing returns on the upcasted version of the spell.
Grappling is an ongoing effect, so it works without any extra attacks.
Since the primary point of the spell is attacking for 4d8 damage a round as a bonus action, while also immobilizing enemies so they can't get to the caster to stop it, multiple attacks for upcast would likely be considered excessive.
Neither the number of attacks nor the frequency of attacks is increased by upcasting.
The spell allows you to make one spell attack against one creature when cast and then one spell attack against one creature as a Bonus Action on each of your future turns. These spell attacks could be against the same creature over and over again (whether or not that creature is grappled), or it can be against different creatures.
When the attack hits, the target creature is always pulled 0 - 30 feet towards the vine. It's unclear to me if the spellcaster has the choice of how far this creature will be pulled, or if the creature is always pulled as far as possible (possibly not able to be pulled all the way if that space is already occupied by another creature, for example).
When the attack hits, you also have the option to cause the vine to grapple that target creature if you have not already reached the maximum number of creatures that can be grappled by this effect. That maximum number of grappled creatures can be increased by upcasting.
As for the OP's questions:
1. The vine is the grappler.
2. The Movable clause of the Grappled condition will have no effect in this case because the vine itself cannot move. Note that this does not affect the "is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine" portion of the spell since that effect is not a result of a Grapple, it is included in the attack.
EDIT: Upon a closer reading, applying the Grappled condition is not optional, it happens automatically on a hit.
This poses a separate question about whether or not a 2nd creature can even be targeted by this attack in the first place if you've already reached the number of grappled creatures that can be grappled by this effect prior to this attack. I can think of 3 possible interpretations:
1. The grappled creature must be released first. THEN, a 2nd creature can be targeted for an attack. In this case, on a miss you will end up with 0 grappled creatures.
2. The grappled creature can be released at the instant the 2nd creature is hit in order to make room for that 2nd creature to be grappled by that hit.
3. The attack against the 2nd creature proceeds as normal, but then if the 1st creature was never released then the 2nd creature simply doesn't get grappled at the end of resolving that attack.
I'm actually not sure which of those three possibilities would be the RAW for this mechanic -- I'd be interested to see some opinions on it.
IT says that you can attack "a creature", with no restrictions. If hit, they're auto-grappled, but the grapplee count is limited. Releasing a grapplee is a positive action on the caster's part.
Therefore, you can attack whoever, and if you're already at max grapple, they aren't grappled. (But they are pulled.) Successful grappling is not a precondition of either the damage or the pull. If you're full, it's just like if the target were huge.
Good call, there is already that clause that the grapple fails if the target is larger than Huge, so even though it is an auto-grapple the grapple portion of the procedure might fail even though the damage and the pull have already succeeded. That makes sense.
I have a comment and another question.
1st since the vine is grappling then it's basically debuffing by giving disadvantage on all attacks, moving the target 30ft, and rooting the target. When you include the damage that's pretty powerful for a bonus action concentration spell. Even with the size restriction this can seriously hinder adult dragons, hydras, and a lot of other high CR monsters that rely on attacks, especially melee attacks.
Question:
Since the vine is grappling and the range of the vine's attack is 30ft would misty step be able to break out of the vine's grapple if the target is in the square above the vine?
If the target tries to go horizontally away using misty step it is still in the vine's range and nothing in misty step says that it breaks grapples. The only rule I could fine on escaping a grapple is this, "Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Teleportation usually breaks a grapple because they move the creature outside of the grappler's range, but this wouldn't unless the creature misty steps straight up.
I'd say yes, because in my opinion, the grapple's range isn't 30 ft, but the distance between you and the vine at the moment you were grappled.
So you'd rule that any forced movement on the target that pushes it away from the vine would also break the grapple?
It's my opinion, yes, for example using Push, Shove or the classic Thunderwave.
The vine, for me, isn't a creature, so it can't move you like a creature could (*). It's just something grappling you, like a trap.
(*) except when it's attacking and pulling.
I would argue that the grapple's range is the full range in which the grappling attack can be made.
Conceptually, the grapple is broken because the moved creature physically cannot hold the victim anymore. The vine/tentacle/arm is only so long. If it's 30 feet long, then 31 feet is too much.
Of course, the rule is an abstraction designed for the typical "I grab him with my hands" grapple, so it's going to get weirder the further you get from that. It also doesn't handle teleportation fully -- if I'm grappling you, and you misty step from right in front of me to right behind me, RAW, you're still grappled.
So, RAW, you need to get out of the 30 foot radius, but GMs should allow most teleports break most grapples.
I agree with you the condition ends if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range of 30 feet, in this case while a Grasping Vine is not a creature, however a grapple is initiated, it follows these rules, including how Escaping a Grapple can occur.
Honestly, that was the other option I was considering.
Yeah, I concur it's RAW, but it's also odd. For example, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements, you could maintain your grapple even when the grappled target teleports within 15 feet of you.
EDIT: format.