I disagree. With Relentless Endurance, you don't drop to 0 HP and then change it to 1 HP. The change to 1 HP happens instead of the drop to 0 HP. That creature never actually dropped to 0 HP. Otherwise, by rule, he is now Prone. But nobody rules it that way precisely because the creature never actually dropped to 0 HP in the first place.
Now, if Relentless Endurance was worded in a way such as: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can gain 1 Hit Point." . . . then I would agree that the timing is different and such a rule wouldn't kick in until after the creature has experienced a drop to 0 Hit Points. But the rule isn't written like that. It is written as: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead." The "you can" means that it is optional. And it is an either/or option. Both things do not happen. Either you are dropped to 0 HP OR you are dropped to 1 HP instead. As such, this decision MUST be made before any damage is applied / taken by the creature.
I disagree. With Relentless Endurance, you don't drop to 0 HP and then change it to 1 HP.
Relentless Endurance: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points". I'm not sure how that wording is taken to mean you don't drop to 0 hp.
That's not the entire sentence
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I disagree. With Relentless Endurance, you don't drop to 0 HP and then change it to 1 HP.
Relentless Endurance: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points". I'm not sure how that wording is taken to mean you don't drop to 0 hp.
Don't cut out important words in their argument to straw man it. Their next sentence explains this. Also, your argument ignores the important word "instead". The argument you're responding to is still wrong grammatically, there's no point in straw manning it.
The big issue is in order of operations. The wording of "When you would reduce" versus the wording of "When you are reduced" is the point of discussion. Inclusion of "would" makes "would reduce" refer to an action that hasn't been completed yet versus the "are reduced" referring to a completed action. This would indicate that "When you would reduce" is resolved before "When you are reduced" because the action is still in the process of completion whereas "when you are reduced" the action is complete. If they were supposed to occur simultaneously then the wording of knocking out would read "When you reduce".
I understand that the wording is not consistent between the two effects, but that doesn't matter because that wording is superseded by the result of the rules that are followed.
Creature A attacks Creature B who has 15 HP.
Creature A deals 25 damage with this attack.
This damage "would reduce" Creature B to 0 HP. This damage also "does reduce" Creature B to 0 HP by default.
So now, at this moment, the 25 damage must be resolved. We have 3 choices:
1. Follow the default rule which does reduce Creature B to 0 HP and renders him Unconscious and he begins the process of making Death Saving Throws.
2. Follow the rule for Knocking Out a Creature which causes Creature B to be reduced to 1 HP and is rendered Unconscious / "Knocked Out" instead of dropping to 0 HP (by default).
3. Follow the rule for Relentless Endurance, which causes Creature B to be reduced to 1 HP instead of dropping to 0 HP (by default).
Timing-wise, nothing else actually happens between the moment the damage is calculated /dealt and the moment the damage is applied / taken. It's just this decision in this moment about how to apply this damage and which rule to follow when doing so.
I understand that the wording is not consistent between the two effects, but that doesn't matter because that wording is superseded by the result of the rules that are followed.
Creature A attacks Creature B who has 15 HP.
Creature A deals 25 damage with this attack.
This damage "would reduce" Creature B to 0 HP. This damage also "does reduce" Creature B to 0 HP by default.
So now, at this moment, the 25 damage must be resolved. We have 3 choices:
1. Follow the default rule which does reduce Creature B to 0 HP and renders him Unconscious and he begins the process of making Death Saving Throws.
2. Follow the rule for Knocking Out a Creature which causes Creature B to be reduced to 1 HP and is rendered Unconscious / "Knocked Out" instead of dropping to 0 HP (by default).
3. Follow the rule for Relentless Endurance, which causes Creature B to be reduced to 1 HP instead of dropping to 0 HP (by default).
Timing-wise, nothing else actually happens between the moment the damage is calculated /dealt and the moment the damage is applied / taken. It's just this decision in this moment about how to apply this damage and which rule to follow when doing so.
This argument is flawed because it assumes that knocking out rules happen when the damage is applied which is false. Wording very much matters when it determines the order in which effects trigger. As per my grammatical argument above, knocking out rules apply when you determine what the damage is supposed to be but before it is applied because "would reduce" means the action is not yet completed. So, the damage is changed to make it so that the creature would be dropped to 1 before it is actually applied to the target. Relentless Endurance only activates when the damage is actually applied not when it's being determined like Knocking out.
I understand that the wording is not consistent between the two effects, but that doesn't matter because that wording is superseded by the result of the rules that are followed.
It absolutely matters. The way it works is
Deal 25 damage to a creature with 15 hp.
It is determined that 25 damage would reduce the creature to 0 hp.
Knocking out a creature, if used, is applied. If it is used, the creature is no longer being reduced to 0 hp and evaluation ends.
25 damage is applied, reducing the creature to 0 hp.
Relentless endurance, if available, is applied, instead reducing the creature to 1 hp, and evaluation ends.
If none of the above (or any other effects) apply, the normal rules for being reduced to 0 HP apply.
I understand that the wording is not consistent between the two effects, but that doesn't matter because that wording is superseded by the result of the rules that are followed.
Creature A attacks Creature B who has 15 HP.
Creature A deals 25 damage with this attack.
This damage "would reduce" Creature B to 0 HP. This damage also "does reduce" Creature B to 0 HP by default.
No if Creature A chooses to knock-out Creature B then this never happens. The rule doesn't say "did" or "have" but instead says "would" so it triggers before the hp are reduced.
I understand that the wording is not consistent between the two effects, but that doesn't matter because that wording is superseded by the result of the rules that are followed.
Creature A attacks Creature B who has 15 HP.
Creature A deals 25 damage with this attack.
This damage "would reduce" Creature B to 0 HP. This damage also "does reduce" Creature B to 0 HP by default.
No if Creature A chooses to knock-out Creature B then this never happens. The rule doesn't say "did" or "have" but instead says "would" so it triggers before the hp are reduced.
Correct. It never happens.
But I was just referring to the default rule as being one of the three possibilities for how to handle the 25 damage. It's the rule that is used if neither creature does anything in the moment between the damage being calculated / dealt and the damage being applied / taken.
The default rule that dictates how the damage should be applied / taken is found at: Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Hit Points
Your current Hit Points can be any number from [ your Hit Point ] maximum down to 0, which is the lowest Hit Points can go.
Whenever you take damage, subtract it from your Hit Points. Hit Point loss has no effect on your capabilities until you reach 0 Hit Points.
Immediately followed by this default rule, found at: Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When a creature drops to 0 Hit Points, it either dies outright or falls unconscious, as explained below.
and within that, we have the rules for the Unconscious condition:
you experience the following effects.
Inert. You have the Incapacitated and Prone conditions, and you drop whatever you’re holding. When this condition ends, you remain Prone.
In the case of Relentless Endurance, unless we want to rule that the creature becomes Prone and drops whatever he was holding, then in fact, that creature never actually dropped to 0 HP. An alternate rule has been followed prior to the above default rules taking effect. This is in line with the common definition of the word "instead" that is used in the feature. You never actually drop to 0 HP because you drop to 1 HP instead.
The point is . . . The damage is calculated and dealt. This is immediately and instantly followed by the damage being applied and taken which causes the creature to drop to 0 HP, triggering the default rule for dropping to 0 HP. No actual time is passing during this process.
If you want to interrupt this flow of the application of the default rules and apply a different rule instead, there is only one opportunity to do so -- one instantaneous moment where this is possible. It is the moment between the dealing of the damage and the applying of the damage. Again, no actual time is passing. There is not a range of times where we can branch off into an alternate rule. There is only this one moment.
Instead of applying enough damage to drop the creature to 0 HP and trigger the default rule, we choose to follow the alternate rule for Knocking Out a Creature.
Also
Instead of applying enough damage to drop the creature to 0 HP and trigger the default rule, we choose to follow the alternate rule for Relentless Endurance.
These two effects happen within the game at the same moment, simultaneously.
If you want to interrupt this flow of the application of the default rules and apply a different rule instead, there is only one opportunity to do so -- one instantaneous moment where this is possible. It is the moment between the dealing of the damage and the applying of the damage. Again, no actual time is passing. There is not a range of times where we can branch off into an alternate rule. There is only this one moment.
Time passing does not matter. What matters is order of evaluation. You can interrupt the flow at any point.
There is only one point in this example though. It is the point in the procedure between the calculation of the damage and the application of the damage. There aren't multiple points between those -- it's the very next thing that happens. You calculate the damage. The very next thing that happens is that the damage is applied. There is only one place to get in-between those two events. It's after the damage has been calculated and before it has been applied. At that moment, you decide which of the three rules will be used to apply the damage.
There is only one point in this example though. It is the point in the procedure between the calculation of the damage and the application of the damage. There aren't multiple points between those -- it's the very next thing that happens. You calculate the damage. The very next thing that happens is that the damage is applied. There is only one place to get in-between those two events. It's after the damage has been calculated and before it has been applied. At that moment, you decide which of the three rules will be used to apply the damage.
Nope. Relentless Endurance occurs after damage has been applied.
Even if we assumed the two were simultaneous, knocking out would apply before Relentless Rage could ever kick in due to the rules for Simultaneous Effects.
Relentless Endurance occurs after damage has been applied.
Incorrect. It occurs after damage has been calculated, but not yet applied
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To my understanding, when used individually, i don't think any of those effects actually leave you reduced to 0 Hit Points but 1+ instead.
But when Knocking Out a Creature with Relentless Endurance, you instead reduce it to 1 HP when you would reduce to 0 before its reduced to 0 Hit Points and can drop to 1 instead.
Knocking someone unconscious is fundamentally a plot device anyway, even if they did come up with rules for it, so the most correct answer on how that interacts with the Relentless features is "whatever the DM thinks will be the most dramatic option/pushes the story forward the best"
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I disagree. With Relentless Endurance, you don't drop to 0 HP and then change it to 1 HP. The change to 1 HP happens instead of the drop to 0 HP. That creature never actually dropped to 0 HP. Otherwise, by rule, he is now Prone. But nobody rules it that way precisely because the creature never actually dropped to 0 HP in the first place.
Now, if Relentless Endurance was worded in a way such as: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can gain 1 Hit Point." . . . then I would agree that the timing is different and such a rule wouldn't kick in until after the creature has experienced a drop to 0 Hit Points. But the rule isn't written like that. It is written as: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead." The "you can" means that it is optional. And it is an either/or option. Both things do not happen. Either you are dropped to 0 HP OR you are dropped to 1 HP instead. As such, this decision MUST be made before any damage is applied / taken by the creature.
Relentless Endurance: "When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points". I'm not sure how that wording is taken to mean you don't drop to 0 hp.
That's not the entire sentence
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Don't cut out important words in their argument to straw man it. Their next sentence explains this. Also, your argument ignores the important word "instead". The argument you're responding to is still wrong grammatically, there's no point in straw manning it.
The big issue is in order of operations. The wording of "When you would reduce" versus the wording of "When you are reduced" is the point of discussion. Inclusion of "would" makes "would reduce" refer to an action that hasn't been completed yet versus the "are reduced" referring to a completed action. This would indicate that "When you would reduce" is resolved before "When you are reduced" because the action is still in the process of completion whereas "when you are reduced" the action is complete. If they were supposed to occur simultaneously then the wording of knocking out would read "When you reduce".
edited for clarity
I understand that the wording is not consistent between the two effects, but that doesn't matter because that wording is superseded by the result of the rules that are followed.
Creature A attacks Creature B who has 15 HP.
Creature A deals 25 damage with this attack.
This damage "would reduce" Creature B to 0 HP. This damage also "does reduce" Creature B to 0 HP by default.
So now, at this moment, the 25 damage must be resolved. We have 3 choices:
1. Follow the default rule which does reduce Creature B to 0 HP and renders him Unconscious and he begins the process of making Death Saving Throws.
2. Follow the rule for Knocking Out a Creature which causes Creature B to be reduced to 1 HP and is rendered Unconscious / "Knocked Out" instead of dropping to 0 HP (by default).
3. Follow the rule for Relentless Endurance, which causes Creature B to be reduced to 1 HP instead of dropping to 0 HP (by default).
Timing-wise, nothing else actually happens between the moment the damage is calculated /dealt and the moment the damage is applied / taken. It's just this decision in this moment about how to apply this damage and which rule to follow when doing so.
This argument is flawed because it assumes that knocking out rules happen when the damage is applied which is false. Wording very much matters when it determines the order in which effects trigger. As per my grammatical argument above, knocking out rules apply when you determine what the damage is supposed to be but before it is applied because "would reduce" means the action is not yet completed. So, the damage is changed to make it so that the creature would be dropped to 1 before it is actually applied to the target. Relentless Endurance only activates when the damage is actually applied not when it's being determined like Knocking out.
It absolutely matters. The way it works is
No if Creature A chooses to knock-out Creature B then this never happens. The rule doesn't say "did" or "have" but instead says "would" so it triggers before the hp are reduced.
Correct. It never happens.
But I was just referring to the default rule as being one of the three possibilities for how to handle the 25 damage. It's the rule that is used if neither creature does anything in the moment between the damage being calculated / dealt and the damage being applied / taken.
The default rule that dictates how the damage should be applied / taken is found at: Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Hit Points
Immediately followed by this default rule, found at: Playing the Game --> Damage and Healing --> Dropping to 0 Hit Points
and within that, we have the rules for the Unconscious condition:
In the case of Relentless Endurance, unless we want to rule that the creature becomes Prone and drops whatever he was holding, then in fact, that creature never actually dropped to 0 HP. An alternate rule has been followed prior to the above default rules taking effect. This is in line with the common definition of the word "instead" that is used in the feature. You never actually drop to 0 HP because you drop to 1 HP instead.
The point is . . . The damage is calculated and dealt. This is immediately and instantly followed by the damage being applied and taken which causes the creature to drop to 0 HP, triggering the default rule for dropping to 0 HP. No actual time is passing during this process.
If you want to interrupt this flow of the application of the default rules and apply a different rule instead, there is only one opportunity to do so -- one instantaneous moment where this is possible. It is the moment between the dealing of the damage and the applying of the damage. Again, no actual time is passing. There is not a range of times where we can branch off into an alternate rule. There is only this one moment.
Instead of applying enough damage to drop the creature to 0 HP and trigger the default rule, we choose to follow the alternate rule for Knocking Out a Creature.
Also
Instead of applying enough damage to drop the creature to 0 HP and trigger the default rule, we choose to follow the alternate rule for Relentless Endurance.
These two effects happen within the game at the same moment, simultaneously.
Time passing does not matter. What matters is order of evaluation. You can interrupt the flow at any point.
There is only one point in this example though. It is the point in the procedure between the calculation of the damage and the application of the damage. There aren't multiple points between those -- it's the very next thing that happens. You calculate the damage. The very next thing that happens is that the damage is applied. There is only one place to get in-between those two events. It's after the damage has been calculated and before it has been applied. At that moment, you decide which of the three rules will be used to apply the damage.
Nope. Relentless Endurance occurs after damage has been applied.
Even if we assumed the two were simultaneous, knocking out would apply before Relentless Rage could ever kick in due to the rules for Simultaneous Effects.
Incorrect. It occurs after damage has been calculated, but not yet applied
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Damage reduces Hit Points.
When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, Relentless Endurance can be used.
To my understanding, when used individually, i don't think any of those effects actually leave you reduced to 0 Hit Points but 1+ instead.
But when Knocking Out a Creature with Relentless Endurance, you instead reduce it to 1 HP when you would reduce to 0 before its reduced to 0 Hit Points and can drop to 1 instead.
Knocking someone unconscious is fundamentally a plot device anyway, even if they did come up with rules for it, so the most correct answer on how that interacts with the Relentless features is "whatever the DM thinks will be the most dramatic option/pushes the story forward the best"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)