The most obvious answer is that-despite many attempts to frame it otherwise- this is not meant to be the setup of an offensive buff. Hide could be intended primarily as a defensive option- if you're in a heavily obscured position such as darkness or thick foliage your position would typically be known, whereas with Hide it requires a Perception check.
I'm not sure I can split the hair that fine between what counts as using it on 'offense' versus 'defense', especially once you factor in something like the Skulker feat. Are these buffing the offensive potential of the Hide action, or the defensive potential?
Fog of War. You exploit the distractions of battle, gaining Advantage on any Dexterity (Stealth) check you make as part of the Hide action during combat.
Sniper. If you make an attack roll while hidden and the roll misses, making the attack roll doesn't reveal your location.
A feat changing the paradigm doesn't disprove the idea that the baseline option- if we combine RAW with how battlefield awareness has been handled in 5e to date- doesn't support moving across clear space in combat while remaining undetected purely on a d20 roll.
A feat changing the paradigm doesn't disprove the idea that the baseline option- if we combine RAW with how battlefield awareness has been handled in 5e to date- doesn't support moving across clear space in combat while remaining undetected purely on a d20 roll.
That's... not what you said in the previous post
If that's what you meant, I agree, that interpretation of the Hide rules is flat nonsense. But that's waaaaaaaaay beyond being "an offensive buff", and far from the only way to use a Hide action on offense
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not for nothing, but they have released some errata, including two small changes to the Hide action:
In the second paragraph, “you have the Invisible condition” is now “you have the Invisible condition while hidden”. In the third paragraph, “The condition ends on you” is now “You stop being hidden”.
So, you lose the condition when you are no longer hidden, and there is an explicit list of things that cause you to be no longer hidden --- that does not include "you leave cover" --- but does still include "you make a sound louder than a whisper" or "an enemy finds you."
So, you lose the condition when you are no longer hidden, and there is an explicit list of things that cause you to be no longer hidden --- that does not include "you leave cover" --- but does still include "you make a sound louder than a whisper" or "an enemy finds you."
Well, this means we now have a 'hidden' status... that is undefined. I think I have to call it "progress but still a failure".
So, you lose the condition when you are no longer hidden, and there is an explicit list of things that cause you to be no longer hidden --- that does not include "you leave cover" --- but does still include "you make a sound louder than a whisper" or "an enemy finds you."
Well, this means we now have a 'hidden' status... that is undefined. I think I have to call it "progress but still a failure".
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
I think the RAI, at least, is clearer that you stop being hidden when you leave cover or an enemy gains line of sight on you, since those are necessary conditions for being hidden in the first place
The existence of an Invisible condition that applies when you aren't actually invisible is still a mess, though
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think the RAI, at least, is clearer that you stop being hidden when you leave cover or an enemy gains line of sight on you, since those are necessary conditions for being hidden in the first place
No, those are conditions necessary to take the Hide action, they are not mentioned as things that make you stop being hidden.
I think the RAI, at least, is clearer that you stop being hidden when you leave cover or an enemy gains line of sight on you, since those are necessary conditions for being hidden in the first place
No, those are conditions necessary to take the Hide action, they are not mentioned as things that make you stop being hidden.
Well, these are conditions necessary to take the Hide action which allows you to become hidden. While hidden, you have the Condition. While hidden, certain things can occur which will cause you to "stop being hidden immediately". This wording change which now emphasizes the word "hidden" in several places makes it a whole lot easier to make the unwritten assumption that you also "stop being hidden immediately" . . . when you stop hiding. I personally do not think that that needs to be explicitly stated.
You take the Hide action to "try to conceal yourself" on an ongoing basis. You do this by positioning yourself in a certain way and making a check to see if you were successful and then remaining this way on an ongoing basis while your persistent Stealth check value remains valid (no one's Perception score with a Search action (or Passive Perception score?) has beaten it yet). This apparently makes you "hidden" and you only have the benefits of the Invisible Condition "while hidden" (ongoing). Meaning, you have to actually remain hidden to retain these benefits. Logically, if you stop hiding you will lose these benefits since they only apply "while hidden". In addition, you might intend to remain hidden but certain other events could happen to involuntarily cause you to immediately stop being hidden.
This is definitely a pretty big improvement. I agree that it's still not perfect, but it's really quite a bit better than the original release.
This is definitely a pretty big improvement. I agree that it's still not perfect, but it's really quite a bit better than the original release.
It is? I would argue that it doesn't fix anything. The key questions for hiding, which are not addressed by this update, are
Can you lose the hidden condition in a way other than "you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component" -- for example, losing the prerequisites for the hide action.
Can an enemy 'find' you in a way other than taking the search action -- such as passive perception, or being in a position with clear unobstructed line of sight on your hiding spot.
Does hiding make you unheard (and therefore position unknown)?
I think the RAI, at least, is clearer that you stop being hidden when you leave cover or an enemy gains line of sight on you, since those are necessary conditions for being hidden in the first place
No, those are conditions necessary to take the Hide action, they are not mentioned as things that make you stop being hidden.
Which is why I specifically referred to RAI
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is definitely a pretty big improvement. I agree that it's still not perfect, but it's really quite a bit better than the original release.
It is? I would argue that it doesn't fix anything. The key questions for hiding, which are not addressed by this update, are
Can you lose the hidden condition in a way other than "you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component" -- for example, losing the prerequisites for the hide action.
Can an enemy 'find' you in a way other than taking the search action -- such as passive perception, or being in a position with clear unobstructed line of sight on your hiding spot.
Does hiding make you unheard (and therefore position unknown)?
Of these questions, I would say the one whose clarity has improved the most is the first one.
With the simple change of “you have the Invisible condition” becoming “you have the Invisible condition while hidden”, it is now clear that one additional explicit way for you to lose the condition is if you are not hidden since you now even more explicitly only have the condition "while hidden". The "while" in the phrase "while hidden" emphasizes that this is an ongoing state instead of a permanent gain at a snapshot moment. You have to continue to be successfully concealed in order to continue to enjoy the benefits. As soon as you are not hiding then the benefits are lost.
Even if we were to say that the only way that we really know if a creature is no longer hiding / hidden is if the player or the DM just declares that a creature is no longer hiding -- at least the benefits can explicitly be lost in this way now, whereas previously that was not explicitly mentioned.
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A feat changing the paradigm doesn't disprove the idea that the baseline option- if we combine RAW with how battlefield awareness has been handled in 5e to date- doesn't support moving across clear space in combat while remaining undetected purely on a d20 roll.
That's... not what you said in the previous post
If that's what you meant, I agree, that interpretation of the Hide rules is flat nonsense. But that's waaaaaaaaay beyond being "an offensive buff", and far from the only way to use a Hide action on offense
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not for nothing, but they have released some errata, including two small changes to the Hide action:
In the second paragraph, “you have the Invisible condition” is now “you have the Invisible condition while hidden”. In the third paragraph, “The condition ends on you” is now “You stop being hidden”.
So, you lose the condition when you are no longer hidden, and there is an explicit list of things that cause you to be no longer hidden --- that does not include "you leave cover" --- but does still include "you make a sound louder than a whisper" or "an enemy finds you."
Well, this means we now have a 'hidden' status... that is undefined. I think I have to call it "progress but still a failure".
The whole thing together
I think the RAI, at least, is clearer that you stop being hidden when you leave cover or an enemy gains line of sight on you, since those are necessary conditions for being hidden in the first place
The existence of an Invisible condition that applies when you aren't actually invisible is still a mess, though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No, those are conditions necessary to take the Hide action, they are not mentioned as things that make you stop being hidden.
It's not "an" Invisible condition, it is "the" Invisible condition.
I do agree that it is a mess though, their love affair with conditions really is a detriment to the rules.
Well, these are conditions necessary to take the Hide action which allows you to become hidden. While hidden, you have the Condition. While hidden, certain things can occur which will cause you to "stop being hidden immediately". This wording change which now emphasizes the word "hidden" in several places makes it a whole lot easier to make the unwritten assumption that you also "stop being hidden immediately" . . . when you stop hiding. I personally do not think that that needs to be explicitly stated.
You take the Hide action to "try to conceal yourself" on an ongoing basis. You do this by positioning yourself in a certain way and making a check to see if you were successful and then remaining this way on an ongoing basis while your persistent Stealth check value remains valid (no one's Perception score with a Search action (or Passive Perception score?) has beaten it yet). This apparently makes you "hidden" and you only have the benefits of the Invisible Condition "while hidden" (ongoing). Meaning, you have to actually remain hidden to retain these benefits. Logically, if you stop hiding you will lose these benefits since they only apply "while hidden". In addition, you might intend to remain hidden but certain other events could happen to involuntarily cause you to immediately stop being hidden.
This is definitely a pretty big improvement. I agree that it's still not perfect, but it's really quite a bit better than the original release.
It is? I would argue that it doesn't fix anything. The key questions for hiding, which are not addressed by this update, are
Which is why I specifically referred to RAI
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Of these questions, I would say the one whose clarity has improved the most is the first one.
With the simple change of “you have the Invisible condition” becoming “you have the Invisible condition while hidden”, it is now clear that one additional explicit way for you to lose the condition is if you are not hidden since you now even more explicitly only have the condition "while hidden". The "while" in the phrase "while hidden" emphasizes that this is an ongoing state instead of a permanent gain at a snapshot moment. You have to continue to be successfully concealed in order to continue to enjoy the benefits. As soon as you are not hiding then the benefits are lost.
Even if we were to say that the only way that we really know if a creature is no longer hiding / hidden is if the player or the DM just declares that a creature is no longer hiding -- at least the benefits can explicitly be lost in this way now, whereas previously that was not explicitly mentioned.