We had a scenario last evening where a paladin rolled a critical and added divine smite but declared that the damage is non-lethal. It was more than enough to take the creature down. (the smite damage itself was enough to bring it past zero) We grappled with this for a few minutes, because you could argue that holy magic could be able to do this, but spells themselves, to my knowledge, cannot be declared non-lethal.
The paladin has many ways to undo damage done by this (ie, he could spend an action to lay on hands if the DM permits it.)
I permitted it because it was a one-shot and it didn't matter that much, but I kind of would like to know if there is consensus on the topic. I appreciate that the paladin a holy warrior, but I also like the complexity of having to understand the gravity of smiting a non-undead/demon/devil.
Is this purely a RAW/RAI thing, or is this settled mechanics?
When you would reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points with a melee attack, you can instead reduce the creature to 1 Hit Point and give it the Unconscious condition. It then starts a Short Rest, at the end of which that condition ends on it. The condition ends early if the creature regains any Hit Points or if someone takes an action to administer first aid to it, making a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.
There is also a related question in the SAC about it:
Is the intent that only Melee weapon attacks can knock foes Unconscious, or can melee spell attacks as well?
If you reduce a creature to 0 Hit Points with a melee attack, you can knock the creature out. That melee attack isn’t restricted to weapons. Even a melee spell attack can be used to knock a creature out.
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't ask. 2014 or 2024 edition? My answer is based on the 2024 PHB, where Divine Smite is a spell rather than a feature, but regarding spells for knocking out, it's the same between editions.
The same basic principle applies to the 2014 version- smite damage is additional damage applied to a melee attack’s damage roll, so all the rules covering melee attacks apply in the same way as they would to an unmodified weapon attack. Now, if the feature instead made the damage a separate instance that damage would not qualify as nonlethal because the source would not be a melee attack, even if it was triggered by one.
The same basic principle applies to the 2014 version- smite damage is additional damage applied to a melee attack’s damage roll, so all the rules covering melee attacks apply in the same way as they would to an unmodified weapon attack. Now, if the feature instead made the damage a separate instance that damage would not qualify as nonlethal because the source would not be a melee attack, even if it was triggered by one.
There is a distinct difference between NPCs and PC on hitting 0HP. Obviously rolling death saving throws for each NPC would be a tedious waste of time. It's left to players having to use melee attacks as "non-lethal" which works but not in my opinion the optimum way for handling it.
Personally my group homebrews that if you do enough damage that it would exceed the hit point maximum as a negative number (so if the creature has 19 MaxHP and the attack would take it to -19HP) then it dies, else wise anything can be non-lethal. I would suggest requiring a medicine check on top to stabilise the creature or using spare the dying within 1 minute of downing the creature. Of course this is homebrew, not the rules. Just my personal recommendations.
But also remember, there is no such thing as it's a "settled thing", The rules exist to play the game but they do not need to be followed 100%, the DM at the table always has the last say, if something seems too out of place, you are capable of saying, it was already almost dead and that did way too much damage.
It may not be a “settled thing” as an absolute law, but changing the rule in the moment so things don’t work out the way the PC intended is not a great feeling for the table most times. The “take them alive” rules were deliberately made to be simple for players to meet in 5e; it’s best to communicate well ahead of time if you prefer a different approach.
It may not be a “settled thing” as an absolute law, but changing the rule in the moment so things don’t work out the way the PC intended is not a great feeling for the table most times. The “take them alive” rules were deliberately made to be simple for players to meet in 5e; it’s best to communicate well ahead of time if you prefer a different approach.
I would agree with that, it does need to be established ahead of time. But I think it could have been done simpler, telling the player with the state the creature is in, a smite is not going to be non-lethal against it, before the damage is rolled.
We had a scenario last evening where a paladin rolled a critical and added divine smite but declared that the damage is non-lethal. It was more than enough to take the creature down. (the smite damage itself was enough to bring it past zero) We grappled with this for a few minutes, because you could argue that holy magic could be able to do this, but spells themselves, to my knowledge, cannot be declared non-lethal.
The paladin has many ways to undo damage done by this (ie, he could spend an action to lay on hands if the DM permits it.)
I permitted it because it was a one-shot and it didn't matter that much, but I kind of would like to know if there is consensus on the topic. I appreciate that the paladin a holy warrior, but I also like the complexity of having to understand the gravity of smiting a non-undead/demon/devil.
Is this purely a RAW/RAI thing, or is this settled mechanics?
It's possible for any melee attack, even spells:
There is also a related question in the SAC about it:
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't ask. 2014 or 2024 edition? My answer is based on the 2024 PHB, where Divine Smite is a spell rather than a feature, but regarding spells for knocking out, it's the same between editions.
The same basic principle applies to the 2014 version- smite damage is additional damage applied to a melee attack’s damage roll, so all the rules covering melee attacks apply in the same way as they would to an unmodified weapon attack. Now, if the feature instead made the damage a separate instance that damage would not qualify as nonlethal because the source would not be a melee attack, even if it was triggered by one.
Agreed.
There is a distinct difference between NPCs and PC on hitting 0HP. Obviously rolling death saving throws for each NPC would be a tedious waste of time. It's left to players having to use melee attacks as "non-lethal" which works but not in my opinion the optimum way for handling it.
Personally my group homebrews that if you do enough damage that it would exceed the hit point maximum as a negative number (so if the creature has 19 MaxHP and the attack would take it to -19HP) then it dies, else wise anything can be non-lethal. I would suggest requiring a medicine check on top to stabilise the creature or using spare the dying within 1 minute of downing the creature. Of course this is homebrew, not the rules. Just my personal recommendations.
But also remember, there is no such thing as it's a "settled thing", The rules exist to play the game but they do not need to be followed 100%, the DM at the table always has the last say, if something seems too out of place, you are capable of saying, it was already almost dead and that did way too much damage.
It may not be a “settled thing” as an absolute law, but changing the rule in the moment so things don’t work out the way the PC intended is not a great feeling for the table most times. The “take them alive” rules were deliberately made to be simple for players to meet in 5e; it’s best to communicate well ahead of time if you prefer a different approach.
I would agree with that, it does need to be established ahead of time. But I think it could have been done simpler, telling the player with the state the creature is in, a smite is not going to be non-lethal against it, before the damage is rolled.
That’s fair.