So, I feel like this is something people have debated a lot but still haven't come to a clear consensus. With the new updated rules, under what circumstances should someone lose the Invisible condition after they successfully take the Hide action.
In the PHB 24 under the Hide [Action], the conditions for losing the Invisible condition are: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Now all of that is pretty clear except "an enemy finds you". I've seen people interpret this as only being the Search action, or being much more broad. Under these rules, can you hide behind some cover, run out, then make a melee attack with Advantage? What about hiding behind some cover, running out, and then just ending your turn next to someone?
Wanted to see what other people rule this as until we hopefully get a Sage Advice giving a bit more clarification.
To a large extent what this question devolves to is “ what is the average human reaction time to unexpected events? It turns out this is fairly variable and also depends quite a bit on situation. For single event primed reactions this can be quite low - 0.1 sec for touch stimuli, 0.17 sec for auditory stimuli and 0.20sec for visual stimuli with the general average being about 0.25 sec. However, when you take a situation far more akin to combat like driving, with multiple vehicles in multiple locations that you need to keep track of for safety reaction times slow down t between 0.75 to 1.5 sec. Hence the general driving rule to stay 2 sec behind any car in front of you. That 2 second rule is probably a good one here for surprise. If you dart out and can reach the enemy to make an attack in that 2 seconds you probably are surprising them before they can effectively react to your attack granting you advantage. 2 seconds represents 1/3 of the 6 second round so you should surprise anyone within 1/3 of your movement distance. That means 10 feet for someone with a normal 30’ move rate. Unless something has happened to significantly slow you I would set that as the normal distance ( significantly slowed would be down to 15’/ round or slower with a 5’ surprise range resulting). For those with significantly higher speeds a matching increase seems reasonable, so a 45’ speed would allow a 15’ surprise range and a 60’ speed would allow a 20’ range.
Hide requires you to remain hidden to keep the invisible condition, moving directly next to a creature is most likely not remaining hidden. So you can't just run up to a creature in plain sight and end your turn there and expect to still be hidden, since you no longer meet the prequisites of Hide.
However, if you are not in an Enemy's line of sight and you're benefiting from any form of cover or else wise Obscured (such as the effects of the Fog Cloud Spell), then you would not lose the invisible condition.
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
If you make a Ranged attack from the hidden position then you'd have advantage, if you get the same on a melee attack? I am less certain. This is more a question of "when" you lose the invisible condition. If I were to go strict RAW, you lose it the moment you're no longer obscured/behind cover and in the enemy's plain sight. So if you could get into melee range while still hidden, I would say you can use a melee attack with advantage but if you're moving through an area of plain sight, you wouldn't benefit from advantage. At least my interpretation.
Under these rules, can you hide behind some cover, run out, then make a melee attack with Advantage?
By a direct read of the rules, this would work. There's plenty of room for DM-driven circumstances that could give people Passive Perception chances to see you, advantage/disadvantage/etc... But this is likely done in combat, and it's reasonable to assume everyone is distracted by combat and does not have 360-degree vision.
Also, by the regular stealth rules, perhaps you need to make a second Stealth roll to "run out" without making too much noise. (Though I would give you one move's worth of silent movement under the original Hide roll.)
What about hiding behind some cover, running out, and then just ending your turn next to someone?
Same as above, though now you're giving them the opportunity to use a Search action to find you. If they have the Observant feat, they can even do it as a bonus action.
But outside of combat, common sense will reign over the action economy: a guard who is just standing there keeping watch will just notice you, etc.
Under these rules, can you hide behind some cover, run out, then make a melee attack with Advantage?
Yes. This is clearly implied in the level 9 Supreme Sneak ability of the Thief subclass of Rogues, which states:
Stealth Attack (Cost: 1d6). If you have the Hide action's Invisible condition, this attack doesn't end that condition on you if you end the turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover.
The Supreme Sneak ability allows a Thief to remain hidden despite making an attack, which normally causes the Thief to stop being hidden, as long as the Thief ends his or her turn behind 3/4 or Total cover. This clearly tells us that moving into and out of cover does not cause a Thief (or other Rogue) to stop being hidden.
What about hiding behind some cover, running out, and then just ending your turn next to someone?
As the rules are written, once you are hidden, you remain hidden until one of the stated conditions causes you to stop being hidden. Some have argued that coming into the line of sight of an enemy will cause you to not be hidden, but if that were true, then the Supreme Sneak ability wouldn't work at all (as soon as you came out from behind 3/4 or total cover and approached the target to make the attack, you would stop being hidden because D&D has no facing rules, meaning everyone has 360 degrees vision). The part about being out of the line of sight in the Hide description refers to one of the conditions for attempting to become hidden (although an enemy normally has line of sight to a target behind 3/4 cover, the Hide rules specifically override that and allow characters behind 3/4 to hide anyway). However, once you successfully become hidden with the DC 15 roll, you can clearly come into the line of sight of enemies. Your DM may feel that ending your turn hidden beside an enemy is unrealistic, but that is how the rules are written. The rules do seem to imply that the enemy should get a Passive Perception check to notice you, however (see PHB page 40 and DMG page 35). As @plaguescarred pointed out, the rules specifically remind everyone that a DM can override the Hide rules (although keep in mind that is always the case in D&D; this reminder appears to have been added to the Hide rules to remind DMs that do not like the way the Hide rules are written to change them to their liking).
The way i see Stealth Attack, it cause the attack to not stop being hidden immediately after you make an attack roll when behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, such as a ranged attack.
But if an enemy finds you before making that attack, because you came out of Heavily Obscured area or from behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cove to move up to an enemy, you could no longer have the Hide action's Invisible condition when you finally make that attack.
Under these rules, can you hide behind some cover, run out, then make a melee attack with Advantage?
Yes. This is clearly implied in the level 9 Supreme Sneak ability of the Thief subclass of Rogues, which states:
Stealth Attack (Cost: 1d6). If you have the Hide action's Invisible condition, this attack doesn't end that condition on you if you end the turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover.
The Supreme Sneak ability allows a Thief to remain hidden despite making an attack, which normally causes the Thief to stop being hidden, as long as the Thief ends his or her turn behind 3/4 or Total cover. This clearly tells us that moving into and out of cover does not cause a Thief (or other Rogue) to stop being hidden.
The alternative way to read this is that if you were relying on being Heavily Obscured, that the Heavily Obscured condition no longer allows you to remain hidden in this way, you have to move behind Half or Three-Quarters cover for this to work. As such it neither confirms or denies if moving into and out of cover works.
In order to successfully hide, you make a Stealth check, which sets the DC that an enemy's perception must meet in order to find you. That's what "an enemy finds you" means. It means that an enemy has met your Stealth check roll with their own perception check. It can be a passive perception check (using the enemy's passive perception score), or an active Search action.
Otherwise, while you're hidden, you are considered invisible, which means that coming out of cover after hiding will not reveal your position (you're invisible). Only exception to this is if the enemy has Blindsight or Truesight, as stated by this SAC entry: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sae/sage-advice-compendium#SAC-Adventuring1 This SAC entry is actually quite important as it makes it clear that it's having Blindsight or Truesight that allows an enemy to see you while hidden. Just being in their line of sight is not enough. Remember: you're invisible until they find you with a perception check, or if you do something that ends the condition immediately (like attacking). Unless you have the Skulker feat and miss your attack, in which case even attacking won't end your hidden state.
What's important to note here is that the requirement of cover ONLY applies to taking the hide action. You normally must not be directly observed when you take the hide action. But once you're hidden, that requirement doesn't apply anymore, as you're invisible.
I rule Halflingcan also hide while in enemy's line of sight but is found if no longer obscured by a larger creature, which i determine using Cover rule.
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So, I feel like this is something people have debated a lot but still haven't come to a clear consensus. With the new updated rules, under what circumstances should someone lose the Invisible condition after they successfully take the Hide action.
In the PHB 24 under the Hide [Action], the conditions for losing the Invisible condition are: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Now all of that is pretty clear except "an enemy finds you". I've seen people interpret this as only being the Search action, or being much more broad. Under these rules, can you hide behind some cover, run out, then make a melee attack with Advantage? What about hiding behind some cover, running out, and then just ending your turn next to someone?
Wanted to see what other people rule this as until we hopefully get a Sage Advice giving a bit more clarification.
To a large extent what this question devolves to is “ what is the average human reaction time to unexpected events? It turns out this is fairly variable and also depends quite a bit on situation. For single event primed reactions this can be quite low - 0.1 sec for touch stimuli, 0.17 sec for auditory stimuli and 0.20sec for visual stimuli with the general average being about 0.25 sec. However, when you take a situation far more akin to combat like driving, with multiple vehicles in multiple locations that you need to keep track of for safety reaction times slow down t between 0.75 to 1.5 sec. Hence the general driving rule to stay 2 sec behind any car in front of you. That 2 second rule is probably a good one here for surprise. If you dart out and can reach the enemy to make an attack in that 2 seconds you probably are surprising them before they can effectively react to your attack granting you advantage. 2 seconds represents 1/3 of the 6 second round so you should surprise anyone within 1/3 of your movement distance. That means 10 feet for someone with a normal 30’ move rate. Unless something has happened to significantly slow you I would set that as the normal distance ( significantly slowed would be down to 15’/ round or slower with a 5’ surprise range resulting). For those with significantly higher speeds a matching increase seems reasonable, so a 45’ speed would allow a 15’ surprise range and a 60’ speed would allow a 20’ range.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Hide requires you to remain hidden to keep the invisible condition, moving directly next to a creature is most likely not remaining hidden. So you can't just run up to a creature in plain sight and end your turn there and expect to still be hidden, since you no longer meet the prequisites of Hide.
However, if you are not in an Enemy's line of sight and you're benefiting from any form of cover or else wise Obscured (such as the effects of the Fog Cloud Spell), then you would not lose the invisible condition.
If you make a Ranged attack from the hidden position then you'd have advantage, if you get the same on a melee attack? I am less certain. This is more a question of "when" you lose the invisible condition. If I were to go strict RAW, you lose it the moment you're no longer obscured/behind cover and in the enemy's plain sight. So if you could get into melee range while still hidden, I would say you can use a melee attack with advantage but if you're moving through an area of plain sight, you wouldn't benefit from advantage. At least my interpretation.
By a direct read of the rules, this would work. There's plenty of room for DM-driven circumstances that could give people Passive Perception chances to see you, advantage/disadvantage/etc... But this is likely done in combat, and it's reasonable to assume everyone is distracted by combat and does not have 360-degree vision.
Also, by the regular stealth rules, perhaps you need to make a second Stealth roll to "run out" without making too much noise. (Though I would give you one move's worth of silent movement under the original Hide roll.)
Same as above, though now you're giving them the opportunity to use a Search action to find you. If they have the Observant feat, they can even do it as a bonus action.
But outside of combat, common sense will reign over the action economy: a guard who is just standing there keeping watch will just notice you, etc.
An enemy finds you with a successful Wisdom (Perception) check or Passive Perception as well as if you're within enemy’s line of sight while no longer Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover and as DM i determine circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding anymore.
Yes. This is clearly implied in the level 9 Supreme Sneak ability of the Thief subclass of Rogues, which states:
The Supreme Sneak ability allows a Thief to remain hidden despite making an attack, which normally causes the Thief to stop being hidden, as long as the Thief ends his or her turn behind 3/4 or Total cover. This clearly tells us that moving into and out of cover does not cause a Thief (or other Rogue) to stop being hidden.
As the rules are written, once you are hidden, you remain hidden until one of the stated conditions causes you to stop being hidden. Some have argued that coming into the line of sight of an enemy will cause you to not be hidden, but if that were true, then the Supreme Sneak ability wouldn't work at all (as soon as you came out from behind 3/4 or total cover and approached the target to make the attack, you would stop being hidden because D&D has no facing rules, meaning everyone has 360 degrees vision). The part about being out of the line of sight in the Hide description refers to one of the conditions for attempting to become hidden (although an enemy normally has line of sight to a target behind 3/4 cover, the Hide rules specifically override that and allow characters behind 3/4 to hide anyway). However, once you successfully become hidden with the DC 15 roll, you can clearly come into the line of sight of enemies. Your DM may feel that ending your turn hidden beside an enemy is unrealistic, but that is how the rules are written. The rules do seem to imply that the enemy should get a Passive Perception check to notice you, however (see PHB page 40 and DMG page 35). As @plaguescarred pointed out, the rules specifically remind everyone that a DM can override the Hide rules (although keep in mind that is always the case in D&D; this reminder appears to have been added to the Hide rules to remind DMs that do not like the way the Hide rules are written to change them to their liking).
The way i see Stealth Attack, it cause the attack to not stop being hidden immediately after you make an attack roll when behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, such as a ranged attack.
But if an enemy finds you before making that attack, because you came out of Heavily Obscured area or from behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cove to move up to an enemy, you could no longer have the Hide action's Invisible condition when you finally make that attack.
The alternative way to read this is that if you were relying on being Heavily Obscured, that the Heavily Obscured condition no longer allows you to remain hidden in this way, you have to move behind Half or Three-Quarters cover for this to work. As such it neither confirms or denies if moving into and out of cover works.
In order to successfully hide, you make a Stealth check, which sets the DC that an enemy's perception must meet in order to find you.
That's what "an enemy finds you" means. It means that an enemy has met your Stealth check roll with their own perception check.
It can be a passive perception check (using the enemy's passive perception score), or an active Search action.
Otherwise, while you're hidden, you are considered invisible, which means that coming out of cover after hiding will not reveal your position (you're invisible).
Only exception to this is if the enemy has Blindsight or Truesight, as stated by this SAC entry: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sae/sage-advice-compendium#SAC-Adventuring1
This SAC entry is actually quite important as it makes it clear that it's having Blindsight or Truesight that allows an enemy to see you while hidden. Just being in their line of sight is not enough. Remember: you're invisible until they find you with a perception check, or if you do something that ends the condition immediately (like attacking).
Unless you have the Skulker feat and miss your attack, in which case even attacking won't end your hidden state.
It's also possible to become hidden EVEN if you're in plain sight so long as you are in dim light and attuned to this magic item: https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/2405507-natures-mantle
What's important to note here is that the requirement of cover ONLY applies to taking the hide action. You normally must not be directly observed when you take the hide action. But once you're hidden, that requirement doesn't apply anymore, as you're invisible.
I rule Halfling can also hide while in enemy's line of sight but is found if no longer obscured by a larger creature, which i determine using Cover rule.