What is even happening? Why are we ignoring the multiclass rule?:
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
I have no idea. That's what I was trying to point out in post #137.
to address both @DxJxC and @Farling : Not ignoring the Multiclass spell slots, the player in multiclassing still uses the spell slot table for the TOTAL player level. I am just addressing the point that chapter 10 of the rules directs you to the specific class description table you use as per the multiclass rules for known and prepared spells. [ Warlock is the only class without a table ]
Yes, the spellcasting rules in ch10 do tell you how to generally find your spell slots. Not sure what that has to do with the multiclassing rules in ch6 saying to learn/prepare spells according to class, other than that both rules refer to the same chart.
(Also, warlock does have a table. Not sure what that is about either).
Basically, everything you said is confusing. What are you even arguing for and against?
What is even happening? Why are we ignoring the multiclass rule?:
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
I have no idea. That's what I was trying to point out in post #137.
to address both @DxJxC and @Farling : Not ignoring the Multiclass spell slots, the player in multiclassing still uses the spell slot table for the TOTAL player level. I am just addressing the point that chapter 10 of the rules directs you to the specific class description table you use as per the multiclass rules for known and prepared spells. [ Warlock is the only class without a table ]
Yes, the spellcasting rules in ch10 do tell you how to generally find your spell slots. Not sure what that has to do with the multiclassing rules in ch6 saying to learn/prepare spells according to class, other than that both rules refer to the same chart.
(Also, warlock dies have a table. Not sure what that is about either).
Basically, everything you said is confusing. What are you even arguing for and against?
just agreeing with everyone that for multiclassing, the multiclass spell slot table is not used for the purpose of knowing or preparing a class' spells.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class",
so you cannot refer to anything in the multiclass section of the book while preparing spells, as the multiclass rules do not apply to a single-class character, and you cannot refer to spell slots gained from classes other than Sorcerer as a single-class Sorcerer wouldn't have access to those spell slots either, therefore we must refer to the Sorcerer table only when determining what spell slots our multiclass sorcerer would have as that is what a single-class Sorcerer would do.
The Multiclass rules have a section for spells known/prepared and another section for spell slots. Two different sections. If they were just one section, then what you said above here would be correct. But they're not one section. The rule that you know and prepare spells as a single class character doesn't have any effect on your multiclass spell slots. As the spell slots is a seperate section of the rules from the section telling you to single-class it up.
You're also right in the sense that that is what everyone actually does in reality, and they just ignore the RAW. Which is the general consensus of everyone.
"When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level", so when we level up from a wizard 4/sorcerer 5 to a wizard 4/sorcerer 6 we gain the features a 6th level sorcerer would gain, so we must refer to the 6th level entry of the Sorcerer table to determine what spell slots we have.
This here is just incorrect though. Because you're a multiclass caster you never refer to that table again for spell slots. Per the multiclass rules you throw your class "Spellcasting" rules out wherever superseded by the multiclass rules. So Spell Slots rules from your base classes are forever after ignored entirely. You don't have them anymore.
Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.
The only exception to this would be if some other feature was to specifically reference the spell slot table for your single class... like the multiclass known/prepared rules tells us to do for our wizard Spells Known/Prepared section. That is the exact thing the Sorcerer Spells Known section fails to do.
Spell slots are spells slots. None of them belong to any particular class. They're just all your spell slots.
Preparing/knowing spells as if you were single class means that, by RAW, when a multiclassed sorcerer levels up, they only use spell slots obtained from their sorcerer levels to learn new spells.
I would also say that ASI would be ignored if it came from the non-sorcerer class too by RAW
Not to be too much of a downer but was there really any need to resurrect a thread from almost 2 years ago when all you where going to do was re-state an answer that had already been given multiple times?
I'm going to give my own two cents in the debate: a multiclass sorcerer could, in all likelihood RAW learn any spell which it has a spell slot to cast, but that is only because both the multiclass rules are vague on what "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class" means and also what sorcerer means by "Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots". RAI is very clear here thanks to the examples, but RAW is very murky.
I'm gonna address a few points I saw throughout the thread:
"Multiclass spell slots are not single class spell slots": This one really annoys me because it's really easy to disprove. There is no mechanical distinction between the spell slots from multiclassing and spell slots from a single class: they're all spell slots. Your character's spell slots are your character's, they don't belong to any one class. The Sorcerer class states that you can learn any spell for which you have a spell slot of the same level: it is never specified that the spell slot has to be from the sorcerer class.
"Jeremy Crawford said otherwise!" Jeremy Crawford's word is not RAW, it's by definition RAI.
"The examples state differently!" Once again examples are not RAW rules text, they're illustrations of RAI.
As a post word yeah, it's very clear how the rules are supposed to work, but the corner cases are such that they should really be rewritten for clarity's sake. And on another note: ...honestly? I think multiclass casters should be able to learn spells that match their actual spell slots rather than their "single-class spell slots". The current RAI leave mixed casters lagging far behind on important spells known compared to full single-class casters, which is a shame, and being able to pick higher levels of spells for a class you just multiclassed could add interesting character flavor. So, in large, consider this for a house rule, even if practically it's not how the game was originally designed.
RAW is clear enough on this and matches RAI. I do agree it could use some cleanup around multiclassing but the text is clear enough (it refers you directly to the class table only) and also provides an example if you are lost.
But I also think you are wrong about the idea that it is balanced that a single level of wizard is enough to get you complete access to the best spells. No. 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells should be a reward for sticking with a single class.
Yes, the spellcasting rules in ch10 do tell you how to generally find your spell slots. Not sure what that has to do with the multiclassing rules in ch6 saying to learn/prepare spells according to class, other than that both rules refer to the same chart.
(Also, warlock does have a table. Not sure what that is about either).
Basically, everything you said is confusing. What are you even arguing for and against?
just agreeing with everyone that for multiclassing, the multiclass spell slot table is not used for the purpose of knowing or preparing a class' spells.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Preparing/knowing spells as if you were single class means that, by RAW, when a multiclassed sorcerer levels up, they only use spell slots obtained from their sorcerer levels to learn new spells.
I would also say that ASI would be ignored if it came from the non-sorcerer class too by RAW
Not to be too much of a downer but was there really any need to resurrect a thread from almost 2 years ago when all you where going to do was re-state an answer that had already been given multiple times?
I'm going to give my own two cents in the debate: a multiclass sorcerer could, in all likelihood RAW learn any spell which it has a spell slot to cast, but that is only because both the multiclass rules are vague on what "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class" means and also what sorcerer means by "Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots". RAI is very clear here thanks to the examples, but RAW is very murky.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm gonna address a few points I saw throughout the thread:
"Multiclass spell slots are not single class spell slots": This one really annoys me because it's really easy to disprove. There is no mechanical distinction between the spell slots from multiclassing and spell slots from a single class: they're all spell slots. Your character's spell slots are your character's, they don't belong to any one class. The Sorcerer class states that you can learn any spell for which you have a spell slot of the same level: it is never specified that the spell slot has to be from the sorcerer class.
"Jeremy Crawford said otherwise!" Jeremy Crawford's word is not RAW, it's by definition RAI.
"The examples state differently!" Once again examples are not RAW rules text, they're illustrations of RAI.
------------------------------------------------------------
As a post word yeah, it's very clear how the rules are supposed to work, but the corner cases are such that they should really be rewritten for clarity's sake. And on another note: ...honestly? I think multiclass casters should be able to learn spells that match their actual spell slots rather than their "single-class spell slots". The current RAI leave mixed casters lagging far behind on important spells known compared to full single-class casters, which is a shame, and being able to pick higher levels of spells for a class you just multiclassed could add interesting character flavor. So, in large, consider this for a house rule, even if practically it's not how the game was originally designed.
RAW is clear enough on this and matches RAI. I do agree it could use some cleanup around multiclassing but the text is clear enough (it refers you directly to the class table only) and also provides an example if you are lost.
But I also think you are wrong about the idea that it is balanced that a single level of wizard is enough to get you complete access to the best spells. No. 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells should be a reward for sticking with a single class.