What does the spell do? It forces (affected) creature movement to the 4-to-1 ratio while in the area. How does the spell affect the pre-existing difficult terrain? By making the terrain cost 4-to-1 instead of 2-to-1.
This is how I see it. Plant Growth specifically states "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves." It doesn't say it modifies anything. It just states how many feet it takes.
You can also imagine a common sense reason for this, described in the previous sentence in the spell description: "All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown." So they may cover the difficult terrain. You're interacting with the plants now, and not the underlying terrain.
Because the buffs say something along the line of "double" or "twice as fast"
But the defuffs say "1 extra" or "4 instead of" not half.
And everyone knows it is impossible to combine "×4" and "+1" so one must take priority over the other.
Yeah, no. They clearly can stack, the only issue is what order. Is it (1+1)×4 or (1×4)+1? It is up to the DM to decide.
There is no multiplying. Difficult terrain says 1 extra. Plant Growth says 4 for every.
So It's 4 for every foot plus 1 for difficult. 4+1 = 5
It does NOT say quadruple cost so there is no multiplying. You are trying to add a penalty to the penalty.
The one specific 1 foot floor tile will cost you 1 extra foot if it is difficult. That same tile will cost you 4 with Plant Growth. You are only traveling over 1 foot on the ground so there is no additional 4 feet to add.
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"real life is a super high CR."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Because the buffs say something along the line of "double" or "twice as fast"
But the defuffs say "1 extra" or "4 instead of" not half.
And everyone knows it is impossible to combine "×4" and "+1" so one must take priority over the other.
Yeah, no. They clearly can stack, the only issue is what order. Is it (1+1)×4 or (1×4)+1? It is up to the DM to decide.
There is no multiplying. Difficult terrain says 1 extra. Plant Growth says 4 for every.
So It's 4 for every foot plus 1 for difficult. 4+1 = 5
It does NOT say quadruple cost so there is no multiplying. You are trying to add a penalty to the penalty.
The one specific 1 foot floor tile will cost you 1 extra foot if it is difficult. That same tile will cost you 4 with Plant Growth. You are only traveling over 1 foot on the ground so there is no additional 4 feet to add.
Right, it says 1=4 so 1+1=8. It all depends on how you apply the penalties. It isn't my argument, it is the people who want it to stack to 8's argument.
Personally, after discussing it on this thread, I've concluded it should be 5.
Because the buffs say something along the line of "double" or "twice as fast"
But the defuffs say "1 extra" or "4 instead of" not half.
And everyone knows it is impossible to combine "×4" and "+1" so one must take priority over the other.
Yeah, no. They clearly can stack, the only issue is what order. Is it (1+1)×4 or (1×4)+1? It is up to the DM to decide.
As I posted a long while back in this thread it is simple, since both modifiers say how it will affect how much of your speed is used to move 1 actual foot.
One says it will cost your 4 feet of your speed to move through 1 actual foot; the other says it will cost 1 extra foot of speed to move through 1 actual foot. Thus the combined effect effect would be 5 feet of your speed to move 1 actual foot.
And everyone knows it is impossible to combine "×4" and "+1" so one must take priority over the other.
Yeah, no. They clearly can stack, the only issue is what order. Is it (1+1)×4 or (1×4)+1? It is up to the DM to decide.
As I posted a long while back in this thread it is simple, since both modifiers say how it will affect how much of your speed is used to move 1 actual foot.
One says it will cost your 4 feet of your speed to move through 1 actual foot; the other says it will cost 1 extra foot of speed to move through 1 actual foot. Thus the combined effect effect would be 5 feet of your speed to move 1 actual foot.
And as I posted in the comment immediately before this: I agree.
But then I also explained the logic behind the other (very popular) option.
And everyone knows it is impossible to combine "×4" and "+1" so one must take priority over the other.
Yeah, no. They clearly can stack, the only issue is what order. Is it (1+1)×4 or (1×4)+1? It is up to the DM to decide.
As I posted a long while back in this thread it is simple, since both modifiers say how it will affect how much of your speed is used to move 1 actual foot.
One says it will cost your 4 feet of your speed to move through 1 actual foot; the other says it will cost 1 extra foot of speed to move through 1 actual foot. Thus the combined effect effect would be 5 feet of your speed to move 1 actual foot.
And as I posted in the comment immediately before this: I agree.
But then I also explained the logic behind the other (very popular) option.
There's also the option that both are like formulas modifying the same thing (speed), like unarmored defense/draconic resilience/mage armor, and probably shouldn't combine at all. I realize that's a minority opinion, but if they do combine it should be 1-to-5 instead of 1-to-8.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
There's also the option that both are like formulas modifying the same thing (speed), like unarmored defense/draconic resilience/mage armor, and probably shouldn't combine at all. I realize that's a minority opinion, but if they do combine it should be 1-to-5 instead of 1-to-8.
They aren't modifying speed, they are modifying the way that you calculate how speed translates into actual movement. :-)
I think this is the problem - the flavor text says "You move at half speed in difficult terrain". Which, alone would imply the results are multiplicative (which I used to be a proponent of). But in reading the follow up, it's not "half speed", it's actually just a cost-per-foot of movement, just like Plant Growth. I'm firmly in the Additive camp now I think.
I think this is the problem - the flavor text says "You move at half speed in difficult terrain". Which, alone would imply the results are multiplicative (which I used to be a proponent of). But in reading the follow up, it's not "half speed", it's actually just a cost-per-foot of movement, just like Plant Growth. I'm firmly in the Additive camp now I think.
In Chapter 9: Combat, it never mentions the half-speed. So it should be additive in the combat situation. Fethuremore, it also says "Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain". Therefore, Difficult terrain doesn't stack each other.
However, since Plant Growth isn't a difficult terrain. It is a special terrain cost more extra movement speed. Plant Growth can stack with another Difficult terrain.
I think this is the problem - the flavor text says "You move at half speed in difficult terrain". Which, alone would imply the results are multiplicative (which I used to be a proponent of). But in reading the follow up, it's not "half speed", it's actually just a cost-per-foot of movement, just like Plant Growth. I'm firmly in the Additive camp now I think.
The full quote from Chapter 8 would be "You move at half speed in difficult terrain--moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed--so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day." Notice that it specifically mentions the 1 foot costs 2 feet of speed as clarification of the half speed.
All the various modifiers being discuss are ADDITIVE, not Multiplicative.
Here is what it is:
Plant Growth: 4:1 ratio
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain: 5:1 ratio
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain + Crawling (Page 191 of the PHB) : 6:1 ratio
My favourite: Plant Growth + Sleet Storm: Still 5:1, but there is a distinct possibility of starting from a Prone Position. That would cut the Movement phase in half, but the Dash phase is unaffected. A char with a movement of 30, starting from the Prone position, would have a total of 45 feet available, using Dash. At a 5:1 ratio, that is 9, and we round down, to one square or hex. A char with a movement of 40, starting Prone, would have a total distance of 60 available, which works out to 12 feet, which is 2 squares or hexes.
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain + Fog in Druid Grove: 7:1 ratio
I would say that spells like Plant Growth stack with difficult terrain, since they do not have the same name But as others have said, difficult terrain + difficult terrain = regular difficult terrain.
No, Sigred has a good point. You've got two conflicting rules (spend 2 points for every 1 foot moved vs spend 4 points for every 1 foot moved.) Difficult terrain is part of the game's general rules. Plant Growth is an exceptional effect with its own rules. You can definitely make the case that Plant Growth is the more specific rule of the two.
It's not necessarily the only valid way to approach the rules conflict but it's a valid option.
I'd like to point out that RAW - the rule for difficult terrain specifically states "You move at half speed in difficult terrain" - it does NOT say that the movement cost for moving in difficult terrain is doubled.
PHB p182
While plant growth says: "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves"
So RAW, difficult terrain halves your movement speed while plant growth increases the cost of moving - they are specifically stated differently so a DM could easily choose to stack the effects.
Plant growth in difficult terrain - movement speed of creature is halved due to difficult terrain AND movement costs 4 feet for every 1' it moves.
EDITS:
1) Page 190 specifies that difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot of movement - it doesn't halve the creatures speed.
PHB p 190
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain"
2) The full quote on p 182 is
"You move at half speed in difficult terrain - moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed - so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day."
I was reading the rule as "you move at half speed in difficult terrain" while the rest of the sentence of moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costing 2 would be the example of application.
However, when you combine it with the text later in the book on page 190 which explicitly states that difficult terrain costs 1' extra movement - it becomes clear that in the earlier reference the rule is that a move that normally costs 1' will cost 2' in difficult terrain and that the result is that your movement rate is effectively halved.
My fault since I didn't see all the definitions of difficult terrain costs when I looked it up and simply stopped at the first which stated that difficult terrain causes you to move at half speed with what I thought was an example of how that works.
I would say that spells like Plant Growth stack with difficult terrain, since they do not have the same name But as others have said, difficult terrain + difficult terrain = regular difficult terrain.
No, Sigred has a good point. You've got two conflicting rules (spend 2 points for every 1 foot moved vs spend 4 points for every 1 foot moved.) Difficult terrain is part of the game's general rules. Plant Growth is an exceptional effect with its own rules. You can definitely make the case that Plant Growth is the more specific rule of the two.
It's not necessarily the only valid way to approach the rules conflict but it's a valid option.
I'd like to point out that RAW - the rule for difficult terrain specifically states "You move at half speed in difficult terrain" - it does NOT say that the movement cost for moving in difficult terrain is doubled.
PHB p182
It says both: "You move at half speed in difficult terrain — moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed — so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day."
All the various modifiers being discuss are ADDITIVE, not Multiplicative.
Here is what it is:
Plant Growth: 4:1 ratio
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain: 5:1 ratio
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain + Crawling (Page 191 of the PHB) : 6:1 ratio
My favourite: Plant Growth + Sleet Storm: Still 5:1, but there is a distinct possibility of starting from a Prone Position. That would cut the Movement phase in half, but the Dash phase is unaffected. A char with a movement of 30, starting from the Prone position, would have a total of 45 feet available, using Dash. At a 5:1 ratio, that is 9, and we round down, to one square or hex. A char with a movement of 40, starting Prone, would have a total distance of 60 available, which works out to 12 feet, which is 2 squares or hexes.
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain + Fog in Druid Grove: 7:1 ratio
PHB p 190
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain"
However PHB p 182 also says
"You move at half speed in difficult terrain"
which aren't exactly the same thing.
Moving at half speed is only the same as increasing the movement cost by 1' if the movement cost is initially 1'
Anyway, I agree with you that difficult terrain as written on p192 would increase the cost by 1' making plant growth in difficult terrain 5' for 1'.
Also, the rule on difficult terrain specifically states that they don't stack if there are multiple sources.
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain."
Nicely removed from context, p 182 does say “You move half speed in difficult terrain...”
Unfortunately, the rest of that sentence, which you conveniently left out, provides important detail completely consistent with p. 190: “...1 foot of difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed — so you can only curry half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.”
Nicely removed from context, p 182 does say “You move half speed in difficult terrain...”
Unfortunately, the rest of that sentence, which you conveniently left out, provides important detail completely consistent with p. 190: “...1 foot of difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed — so you can only curry half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.”
Sorry - I thought the first half of the sentence was the rule and the rest was an example of application. My mistake.
""You move at half speed in difficult terrain - moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed - so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day."
The intent becomes clear when reading the other definition of difficult terrain on page 190.
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain"
Unfortunately, I stopped at the first definition where it seems to state that you move at half speed and here is an example where if the base cost is 1' it costs you 2'. If it wanted to be consistent with the later definition it should have said that difficult terrain costs 1' of additional movement so for terrain that normally costs 1' this becomes 2', effectively halving your speed.
Of course, if you are moving in a region with plant growth and difficult terrain (or any other effect that slows movement and stacks with difficult terrain) , it costs 5' to move 1' (or 1' additional for difficult terrain) and in this case difficult terrain is not halving your speed.
The problem is the wording for some spells like plant growth and speak with plants.
Speak with plants states
"You can also turn difficult terrain caused by plant growth (such as thickets and undergrowth) into ordinary terrain that lasts for the duration. Or you can turn ordinary terrain where plants are present into difficult terrain that lasts for the duration"
The issue is what cost is it 2 per 1 or 4 per 1.
But overall it is dm discretion as some spells like spirit guardians and plant growth might stack bec 1 only affects terrain while the other is an aura
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This is how I see it. Plant Growth specifically states "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves." It doesn't say it modifies anything. It just states how many feet it takes.
You can also imagine a common sense reason for this, described in the previous sentence in the spell description: "All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown." So they may cover the difficult terrain. You're interacting with the plants now, and not the underlying terrain.
[Edited for specificity]
There is no multiplying. Difficult terrain says 1 extra. Plant Growth says 4 for every.
So It's 4 for every foot plus 1 for difficult. 4+1 = 5
It does NOT say quadruple cost so there is no multiplying. You are trying to add a penalty to the penalty.
The one specific 1 foot floor tile will cost you 1 extra foot if it is difficult. That same tile will cost you 4 with Plant Growth. You are only traveling over 1 foot on the ground so there is no additional 4 feet to add.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Right, it says 1=4 so 1+1=8. It all depends on how you apply the penalties. It isn't my argument, it is the people who want it to stack to 8's argument.
Personally, after discussing it on this thread, I've concluded it should be 5.
As I posted a long while back in this thread it is simple, since both modifiers say how it will affect how much of your speed is used to move 1 actual foot.
One says it will cost your 4 feet of your speed to move through 1 actual foot; the other says it will cost 1 extra foot of speed to move through 1 actual foot. Thus the combined effect effect would be 5 feet of your speed to move 1 actual foot.
And as I posted in the comment immediately before this: I agree.
But then I also explained the logic behind the other (very popular) option.
There's also the option that both are like formulas modifying the same thing (speed), like unarmored defense/draconic resilience/mage armor, and probably shouldn't combine at all. I realize that's a minority opinion, but if they do combine it should be 1-to-5 instead of 1-to-8.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
They aren't modifying speed, they are modifying the way that you calculate how speed translates into actual movement. :-)
I think this is the problem - the flavor text says "You move at half speed in difficult terrain". Which, alone would imply the results are multiplicative (which I used to be a proponent of). But in reading the follow up, it's not "half speed", it's actually just a cost-per-foot of movement, just like Plant Growth. I'm firmly in the Additive camp now I think.
Actually, "You move at half speed in difficult terrain" is in Chapter 8: Adventuring.
In Chapter 9: Combat, it never mentions the half-speed. So it should be additive in the combat situation. Fethuremore, it also says "Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain". Therefore, Difficult terrain doesn't stack each other.
However, since Plant Growth isn't a difficult terrain. It is a special terrain cost more extra movement speed. Plant Growth can stack with another Difficult terrain.
The full quote from Chapter 8 would be "You move at half speed in difficult terrain--moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed--so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day." Notice that it specifically mentions the 1 foot costs 2 feet of speed as clarification of the half speed.
All the various modifiers being discuss are ADDITIVE, not Multiplicative.
Here is what it is:
Plant Growth: 4:1 ratio
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain: 5:1 ratio
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain + Crawling (Page 191 of the PHB) : 6:1 ratio
My favourite: Plant Growth + Sleet Storm: Still 5:1, but there is a distinct possibility of starting from a Prone Position. That would cut the Movement phase in half, but the Dash phase is unaffected. A char with a movement of 30, starting from the Prone position, would have a total of 45 feet available, using Dash. At a 5:1 ratio, that is 9, and we round down, to one square or hex. A char with a movement of 40, starting Prone, would have a total distance of 60 available, which works out to 12 feet, which is 2 squares or hexes.
Plant Growth + Difficult Terrain + Fog in Druid Grove: 7:1 ratio
I'd like to point out that RAW - the rule for difficult terrain specifically states "You move at half speed in difficult terrain" - it does NOT say that the movement cost for moving in difficult terrain is doubled.
PHB p182
While plant growth says: "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves"
So RAW, difficult terrain halves your movement speedwhile plant growth increases the cost of moving - they are specifically stated differently so a DM could easily choose to stack the effects.Plant growth in difficult terrain - movement speed of creature is halved due to difficult terrain AND movement costs 4 feet for every 1' it moves.
EDITS:
1) Page 190 specifies that difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot of movement - it doesn't halve the creatures speed.
PHB p 190
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain"
2) The full quote on p 182 is
"You move at half speed in difficult terrain - moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed - so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day."
I was reading the rule as "you move at half speed in difficult terrain" while the rest of the sentence of moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costing 2 would be the example of application.
However, when you combine it with the text later in the book on page 190 which explicitly states that difficult terrain costs 1' extra movement - it becomes clear that in the earlier reference the rule is that a move that normally costs 1' will cost 2' in difficult terrain and that the result is that your movement rate is effectively halved.
My fault since I didn't see all the definitions of difficult terrain costs when I looked it up and simply stopped at the first which stated that difficult terrain causes you to move at half speed with what I thought was an example of how that works.
It says both: "You move at half speed in difficult terrain — moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed — so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day."
PHB p 190
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain"
However PHB p 182 also says
"You move at half speed in difficult terrain"
which aren't exactly the same thing.
Moving at half speed is only the same as increasing the movement cost by 1' if the movement cost is initially 1'
Anyway, I agree with you that difficult terrain as written on p192 would increase the cost by 1' making plant growth in difficult terrain 5' for 1'.
Also, the rule on difficult terrain specifically states that they don't stack if there are multiple sources.
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain."
Nicely removed from context, p 182 does say “You move half speed in difficult terrain...”
Unfortunately, the rest of that sentence, which you conveniently left out, provides important detail completely consistent with p. 190: “...1 foot of difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed — so you can only curry half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.”
Sorry - I thought the first half of the sentence was the rule and the rest was an example of application. My mistake.
""You move at half speed in difficult terrain - moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed - so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day."
The intent becomes clear when reading the other definition of difficult terrain on page 190.
"Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain"
Unfortunately, I stopped at the first definition where it seems to state that you move at half speed and here is an example where if the base cost is 1' it costs you 2'. If it wanted to be consistent with the later definition it should have said that difficult terrain costs 1' of additional movement so for terrain that normally costs 1' this becomes 2', effectively halving your speed.
Of course, if you are moving in a region with plant growth and difficult terrain (or any other effect that slows movement and stacks with difficult terrain) , it costs 5' to move 1' (or 1' additional for difficult terrain) and in this case difficult terrain is not halving your speed.
Pancakes and squeezing.
Squeezing: a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there. (Movement cost +1)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would agree as a multiplier so 1/2 + 1/2 is 1/4
The problem is the wording for some spells like plant growth and speak with plants.
Speak with plants states
"You can also turn difficult terrain caused by plant growth (such as thickets and undergrowth) into ordinary terrain that lasts for the duration. Or you can turn ordinary terrain where plants are present into difficult terrain that lasts for the duration"
The issue is what cost is it 2 per 1 or 4 per 1.
But overall it is dm discretion as some spells like spirit guardians and plant growth might stack bec 1 only affects terrain while the other is an aura