I think this just comes down to improvised actions, common in D&D.
The general rule is ask your DM. As a DM would probably come up with some roll the player should do to make that action work. You probably would too, and you've even listed the proposed roll you'd do, which seems fine to me!
But when you're a player, don't start making up new rules for the DM to use. If you just say you're doing a grapple, you should expect it to have the listed effects of a grapple and nothing else. If you wanted to do something else besides a grapple, just say so and let the DM adjudicate.
@ftl Of course it is right to ask the DM, but DMs need to be able to interpret the rules too. The question here is, is this "making up a new rule," or is it reading the rules as written?
The official answer is that grapple + drop prone is not allowed according to the rules as written in the Sage Advice. This answer does not explain the justification for the ruling, which leaves similar cases like grapple + standing to depend on the rules as written in the published books.
It's making up an improvised action. The justification for the ruling is that "Grapple does not say you can drop someone prone with it." Actions and abilities do, RAW, exactly what they say they do, not anything else. If grapple allowed the grappler to go prone to also make their target go prone, it would say so.
Grapple also doesn't say you can choke people, take away their weapons, hold their hands or feet, prevent them from attacking (or even hinder their attacks in any way!), prevent them from performing the verbal/somatic/material components of spells, or anything else. Any one of those things may or may not be allowed by the DM if they think it makes sense, and may or may not require additional rolls, actions, or a higher DC. But they're all not part of a "grapple" by the rules.
@ftl I don't quite see the problem you are pointing at. Are you saying that the grapple rules don't say that you can move your opponent? The grapple rules explicitly say that you can move your opponent. Using grapple to move an opponent would be "an ability doing RAW, exactly what it says it does."
Or are you saying that dropping prone and standing don't count as movement? I think this is the actual question. But the answer to that question wouldn't be written in the grapple rules.
Or are you saying that dropping prone and standing don't count as movement? I think this is the actual question. But the answer to that question wouldn't be written in the grapple rules.
It's not really movement, more it's a thing you can do that uses some (or none) of your movement. And even if it is movement, it is a very special kind of movement that does not actually move you at all - whether prone or not you occupy the exact same 5' square of space. If it is movement that doesn't move you (it just toggles a condition on yourself) then what does it mean to force someone to move with you? You moved nowhere.
The primary effect of moving someone with you while grappled is that they remain within your reach and the grapple can continue (if you didn't move them then it would automatically be broken). When you go prone or stand up, you are still in range for the grapple - there is no mechanical reason for the enemy's prone status to mirror yours.
To illustrate how prone status is not related to grappling: you are able to Grapple a standing enemy while you are prone and vice-versa. What effect would standing up have when your grappled enemy us already standing? Are they now hovering above the ground? If you go prone while your target already is, are they underground? No, because your prone status is completely unrelated to theirs.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sigred, the problem is, there is nothing else to compare standing up to that uses "an amount of movement" other than movement? Being Prone is a subsection of Chapter 9 - Movement and Position, describes using your movement, and is something that works in precisely the same way as "your movement" is described. There is no part of that section or anywhere else where "movement is defined as crossing a distance," although the section does say that you can move a distance.
Grappled explicitly sets your speed to 0, and thus you clearly can't stand while grappled. But Paralyzed merely says that you "can't move;" would you argue that a Paralyzed target can freely stand up and drop prone on its turn, because these "aren't movement"? What about Petrified, Stunned, and Unconscious?
EDIT: Then again... Pronedoes say that "A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition." So either standing isn't a "movement option", or we're dealing with two different meanings of "movement" within the rules which regrettably share a word (much like "target" does).
I think it's pretty clear am still in the camp that standing and dropping are types of movement, since holding otherwise leads to truly ridiculous conclusions for the "can't move" conditions. However, that is not to say that being able to "drag/carry with you" includes this sort of movement, because "with you" might be the link to movement across a distance that you're looking for.
The tackle is trying to take the Grapple and Shove actions and put them into one action which is why I would rule it a no no unless you're a class with the Extra Attack ability. The power behind a Grapple and a Shove is that to remove the Prone condition they have to use all of their movement but the Grapple condition sets there speed to 0 and movement takes speed. They have to first break the Grapple which uses up their action and then use all of their movement just to stand up.
Sigred, the problem is, there is nothing else to compare standing up to that uses "an amount of movement" other than movement? Being Prone is a subsection of Chapter 9 - Movement and Position, describes using your movement, and is something that works in precisely the same way as "your movement" is described. There is no part of that section or anywhere else where "movement is defined as crossing a distance," although the section does say that you can move a distance.
Grappled explicitly sets your speed to 0, and thus you clearly can't stand while grappled. But Paralyzed merely says that you "can't move;" would you argue that a Paralyzed target can freely stand up and drop prone on its turn, because these "aren't movement"? What about Petrified, Stunned, and Unconscious?
EDIT: Then again... Pronedoes say that "A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition." So either standing isn't a "movement option", or we're dealing with two different meanings of "movement" within the rules which regrettably share a word (much like "target" does).
You're using Speed and Movement interchangeably when you cannot. Per the PHB "You can dropprone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed." A Paralyzed person, assuming they are standing upright, could go prone because this takes no speed and therefore uses no movement. They cannot stand up because that takes movement. Think of it as they fall over. The same applies to Petrified and Stunned. Unconscious doesn't apply because they fall prone as part of the condition.
I'm not using them interchangeably, I'm very aware of the distinction. I am saying that I do agree that standing up and dropping prone are both "movement", since they appear in the movement section, and use the same movement rules (deduct movement cost from speed until it is used up). Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, and Unconscious all prevent movement instead of dropping speed to 0, and I do not believe that a character suffering from those conditions can choose to stand or drop prone, even though dropping prone costs 0 movement. Free movement doesn't necessarily mean that dropping is not movement. It comes down to whether you define "cannot move" as "cannot spend movement" or "cannot perform any of the activities that one would consider movement;" I think it's the latter.
But just because I agree that they are movement, that is not to say that I agree that one can drag a grappled target "with you" while standing or dropping (though I'll admit I'm on the fence).
Think of movement as a "Speed Action." Use your speed to move. If a condition prevents movement it doesn't matter what your speed is, you cannot use any of it. Dropping prone doesn't cost any speed so you can drop prone even if a condition prevents movement. The advantage to dropping prone while Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned is that ranged attacks have disadvantage. Thematically it would play out like you get Paralyzed while standing but have just enough control of your body to wobble and topple yourself over.
But things are inconsistent. Paralyzed specifically says the creature cannot move. Feign Death drops your speed to 0 but does not say you cannot move. If you could not fall prone because a condition prevents movement, Feign Death would just say you cannot move rather than drop your speed to 0. But I'll be honest, thematically I can't see when you would be affected by Feign Death and want to fall prone. So the question is, is there some ability that allows you to move while your speed is 0? This would indicate why Feign Death sets your speed to 0 rather than saying you cannot move.
If you Grapple a creature and you are both prone, I don't see why you would want to stand up and drag the creature up with you, leave it prone. If you had 40 feet of movement it would cost 20 feet to stand up alone and you could then drag yourself and the prone creature 20 feet. If you wanted the creature to be standing as well I'd say it costs all 40 feet.
If you Grapple a creature and want it to fall prone, that's a Shove and takes an extra action. As someone said earlier, you dropping prone doesn't bring the creature down with you. You're just now holding onto it's pant leg.
"Just enough control of your body" might be arguable with paralyzed, but certainly not with petrified.
But I do see how "movement is anything that uses move speed" is an attractive simplification. I'm not aware that there are any spells or abilities that cause or allow one to move distance without using move speed. Maybe that really is how it's intended (though again, that means that RAW the Prone condition prevents you from standing up, since you're only allowed to crawl (or crawl or teleport, if you refer to the movement section instead of the prone condition).
@ Chicken_Champ: I agree that the prone rule is written in an awkward way. Would it be more clear to say: "Unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition, a prone creature's only movement option is to crawl." This says the same thing, but maybe it is less confusing. I don't think it implies that standing is not movement. It is saying that unless you stand, your only movement option is to crawl.(Without this rule, it wouldn't be obvious that flying creatures also need to stand before resuming flight.)
Edit: In the movement rule, it says "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation." To say that you move while prone is to say that you are prone while moving. While crawling you are prone throughout the entire movement (at the beginning, middle, and end). You would not be prone while standing. This isn't exactly the same as what the condition says, but maybe it is helpful.
@SexyDanger: I don't think that Feign Death is inconsistent in the way you suggest. I think that Feign Death does less than it is described to do. A character under the effects of Feign Death is blinded, but is not deafened and can still touch and taste and smell. The character is still conscious. The character can still move their body as much as a character who is grappled. The character can still speak and can interact with the environment in ways that don't require an action. They can't attack or cast spells, but they should be able to maintain concentration on a spell while pretending to be dead. Apart from being blinded, a character could use Feign Death to do some pretty creative spying. Maybe it is a weird defensive option in combat too? It doesn't cause you to fall prone. The spell's fluff says "cataleptic state," but the mechanics don't back it up. A paralyzed creature auto fails strength and dexterity saving throws, but a creature under Feign Death does not. Same difference with critical hits.
I would argue that this is covered by the grappler feat and for the same reason I'd argue that one shouldn't be able to grapple a prone creature at all without its particupar ruleset.
I haven’t read every comment, but in order to understand ambiguous rules, look at clarified rules using the same wording. Mounting a creature requires half you moment, and half 0 is 0, so a grappled creature could mount, right? Wrong, it clarifies that you speed cannot be 0. Therefore, RAI would say that other things that modify how much movement something takes cannot be done to something with 0 unless it is addition. Double 0 is 0, half 0 is 0, not allowed to use half 0, so not allowed to use double 0 either. If you have a condition that makes it so that dropping prone takes, say, 5 feet of movement, then you could double five to get ten and be able to pull them down. However, the improvised actions would be a better way to do it. And it would take your action rather than your attack action.
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I think this just comes down to improvised actions, common in D&D.
The general rule is ask your DM. As a DM would probably come up with some roll the player should do to make that action work. You probably would too, and you've even listed the proposed roll you'd do, which seems fine to me!
But when you're a player, don't start making up new rules for the DM to use. If you just say you're doing a grapple, you should expect it to have the listed effects of a grapple and nothing else. If you wanted to do something else besides a grapple, just say so and let the DM adjudicate.
@ftl Of course it is right to ask the DM, but DMs need to be able to interpret the rules too. The question here is, is this "making up a new rule," or is it reading the rules as written?
The official answer is that grapple + drop prone is not allowed according to the rules as written in the Sage Advice. This answer does not explain the justification for the ruling, which leaves similar cases like grapple + standing to depend on the rules as written in the published books.
It's making up an improvised action. The justification for the ruling is that "Grapple does not say you can drop someone prone with it." Actions and abilities do, RAW, exactly what they say they do, not anything else. If grapple allowed the grappler to go prone to also make their target go prone, it would say so.
Grapple also doesn't say you can choke people, take away their weapons, hold their hands or feet, prevent them from attacking (or even hinder their attacks in any way!), prevent them from performing the verbal/somatic/material components of spells, or anything else. Any one of those things may or may not be allowed by the DM if they think it makes sense, and may or may not require additional rolls, actions, or a higher DC. But they're all not part of a "grapple" by the rules.
@ftl I don't quite see the problem you are pointing at. Are you saying that the grapple rules don't say that you can move your opponent? The grapple rules explicitly say that you can move your opponent. Using grapple to move an opponent would be "an ability doing RAW, exactly what it says it does."
Or are you saying that dropping prone and standing don't count as movement? I think this is the actual question. But the answer to that question wouldn't be written in the grapple rules.
It's not really movement, more it's a thing you can do that uses some (or none) of your movement. And even if it is movement, it is a very special kind of movement that does not actually move you at all - whether prone or not you occupy the exact same 5' square of space. If it is movement that doesn't move you (it just toggles a condition on yourself) then what does it mean to force someone to move with you? You moved nowhere.
The primary effect of moving someone with you while grappled is that they remain within your reach and the grapple can continue (if you didn't move them then it would automatically be broken). When you go prone or stand up, you are still in range for the grapple - there is no mechanical reason for the enemy's prone status to mirror yours.
To illustrate how prone status is not related to grappling: you are able to Grapple a standing enemy while you are prone and vice-versa. What effect would standing up have when your grappled enemy us already standing? Are they now hovering above the ground? If you go prone while your target already is, are they underground? No, because your prone status is completely unrelated to theirs.
That's one of the things we've been saying this whole time. It is not movement. Movement in 5e is only defined as crossing a distance (squares).
Standing from prone does not trigger the secondary effect of Booming Blade because it is not movement; it uses your movement, but moves you nowhere.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/02/would-standing-up-from-prone-trigger-the-effects-of-booming-blade/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sigred, the problem is, there is nothing else to compare standing up to that uses "an amount of movement" other than movement? Being Prone is a subsection of Chapter 9 - Movement and Position, describes using your movement, and is something that works in precisely the same way as "your movement" is described. There is no part of that section or anywhere else where "movement is defined as crossing a distance," although the section does say that you can move a distance.
Grappled explicitly sets your speed to 0, and thus you clearly can't stand while grappled. But Paralyzed merely says that you "can't move;" would you argue that a Paralyzed target can freely stand up and drop prone on its turn, because these "aren't movement"? What about Petrified, Stunned, and Unconscious?
EDIT: Then again... Prone does say that "A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition." So either standing isn't a "movement option", or we're dealing with two different meanings of "movement" within the rules which regrettably share a word (much like "target" does).
I t
hink it's pretty clearam still in the camp that standing and dropping are types of movement, since holding otherwise leads to truly ridiculous conclusions for the "can't move" conditions. However, that is not to say that being able to "drag/carry with you" includes this sort of movement, because "with you" might be the link to movement across a distance that you're looking for.dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The tackle is trying to take the Grapple and Shove actions and put them into one action which is why I would rule it a no no unless you're a class with the Extra Attack ability. The power behind a Grapple and a Shove is that to remove the Prone condition they have to use all of their movement but the Grapple condition sets there speed to 0 and movement takes speed. They have to first break the Grapple which uses up their action and then use all of their movement just to stand up.
You're using Speed and Movement interchangeably when you cannot. Per the PHB "You can drop prone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed." A Paralyzed person, assuming they are standing upright, could go prone because this takes no speed and therefore uses no movement. They cannot stand up because that takes movement. Think of it as they fall over. The same applies to Petrified and Stunned. Unconscious doesn't apply because they fall prone as part of the condition.
I'm not using them interchangeably, I'm very aware of the distinction. I am saying that I do agree that standing up and dropping prone are both "movement", since they appear in the movement section, and use the same movement rules (deduct movement cost from speed until it is used up). Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, and Unconscious all prevent movement instead of dropping speed to 0, and I do not believe that a character suffering from those conditions can choose to stand or drop prone, even though dropping prone costs 0 movement. Free movement doesn't necessarily mean that dropping is not movement. It comes down to whether you define "cannot move" as "cannot spend movement" or "cannot perform any of the activities that one would consider movement;" I think it's the latter.
But just because I agree that they are movement, that is not to say that I agree that one can drag a grappled target "with you" while standing or dropping (though I'll admit I'm on the fence).
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Think of movement as a "Speed Action." Use your speed to move. If a condition prevents movement it doesn't matter what your speed is, you cannot use any of it. Dropping prone doesn't cost any speed so you can drop prone even if a condition prevents movement. The advantage to dropping prone while Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned is that ranged attacks have disadvantage. Thematically it would play out like you get Paralyzed while standing but have just enough control of your body to wobble and topple yourself over.
But things are inconsistent. Paralyzed specifically says the creature cannot move. Feign Death drops your speed to 0 but does not say you cannot move. If you could not fall prone because a condition prevents movement, Feign Death would just say you cannot move rather than drop your speed to 0. But I'll be honest, thematically I can't see when you would be affected by Feign Death and want to fall prone. So the question is, is there some ability that allows you to move while your speed is 0? This would indicate why Feign Death sets your speed to 0 rather than saying you cannot move.
If you Grapple a creature and you are both prone, I don't see why you would want to stand up and drag the creature up with you, leave it prone. If you had 40 feet of movement it would cost 20 feet to stand up alone and you could then drag yourself and the prone creature 20 feet. If you wanted the creature to be standing as well I'd say it costs all 40 feet.
If you Grapple a creature and want it to fall prone, that's a Shove and takes an extra action. As someone said earlier, you dropping prone doesn't bring the creature down with you. You're just now holding onto it's pant leg.
"Just enough control of your body" might be arguable with paralyzed, but certainly not with petrified.
But I do see how "movement is anything that uses move speed" is an attractive simplification. I'm not aware that there are any spells or abilities that cause or allow one to move distance without using move speed. Maybe that really is how it's intended (though again, that means that RAW the Prone condition prevents you from standing up, since you're only allowed to crawl (or crawl or teleport, if you refer to the movement section instead of the prone condition).
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
@ Chicken_Champ: I agree that the prone rule is written in an awkward way. Would it be more clear to say: "Unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition, a prone creature's only movement option is to crawl." This says the same thing, but maybe it is less confusing. I don't think it implies that standing is not movement. It is saying that unless you stand, your only movement option is to crawl.(Without this rule, it wouldn't be obvious that flying creatures also need to stand before resuming flight.)
Edit: In the movement rule, it says "To move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation." To say that you move while prone is to say that you are prone while moving. While crawling you are prone throughout the entire movement (at the beginning, middle, and end). You would not be prone while standing. This isn't exactly the same as what the condition says, but maybe it is helpful.
@SexyDanger: I don't think that Feign Death is inconsistent in the way you suggest. I think that Feign Death does less than it is described to do. A character under the effects of Feign Death is blinded, but is not deafened and can still touch and taste and smell. The character is still conscious. The character can still move their body as much as a character who is grappled. The character can still speak and can interact with the environment in ways that don't require an action. They can't attack or cast spells, but they should be able to maintain concentration on a spell while pretending to be dead. Apart from being blinded, a character could use Feign Death to do some pretty creative spying. Maybe it is a weird defensive option in combat too? It doesn't cause you to fall prone. The spell's fluff says "cataleptic state," but the mechanics don't back it up. A paralyzed creature auto fails strength and dexterity saving throws, but a creature under Feign Death does not. Same difference with critical hits.
I would argue that this is covered by the grappler feat and for the same reason I'd argue that one shouldn't be able to grapple a prone creature at all without its particupar ruleset.
I haven’t read every comment, but in order to understand ambiguous rules, look at clarified rules using the same wording. Mounting a creature requires half you moment, and half 0 is 0, so a grappled creature could mount, right? Wrong, it clarifies that you speed cannot be 0. Therefore, RAI would say that other things that modify how much movement something takes cannot be done to something with 0 unless it is addition. Double 0 is 0, half 0 is 0, not allowed to use half 0, so not allowed to use double 0 either. If you have a condition that makes it so that dropping prone takes, say, 5 feet of movement, then you could double five to get ten and be able to pull them down. However, the improvised actions would be a better way to do it. And it would take your action rather than your attack action.