Further, Jeremy Crawford's rules were considered official at the time he had addressed the question of magic missile. Additionally, the decision to rule his tweets as no longer official was not made without JC's input; he specifically stated that he did not wish for people to crawl through his tweets to find clarification on rules, not that his judgement is suspect. Lastly, even if his posts are not RAW as of 2019, they are still and have always been rules as intended.
As of the January edition of the Sage Advice Compendium PDF, my tweets aren't official rulings. I don't want people having to sift through my tweets for official rules calls. My tweets will preview official rulings in the compendium. And remember, the DM has the final say.
Which means when the 2019 SAC came out, all of his tweets lost any official creditability in being deemed RAW and RAI.
He knew he overstepped with the 2018 Magic Missile tweet, and WotC made that clear with the very same statement in the beginning of the 2019 SAC that is the very same as the 2020 SAC.
So, no not confused what-so-ever. JC stuck his head out, and was lucky it didn't get chopped off. His 2018 Magic Missile tweet is unofficial and therefore NOT RAW.
But according to that tweet, it is not an official ruling that his tweets are not official rulings....
I will repeat, though, that I am not claiming his MM tweet to be a ruling from him, but, based on the wording, a conveyance of what he believes the official WotC ruling. Again, he cites RoI as being 'DM's choice,' which implies that is what he thinks the interpretation should be (rather than what he believes it is, officially).
WotC's statement - "The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes a preview of rulings that appear here." in the SAC along with JC's tweet was the agreement both made that the tweets were unofficial, as he was using them to unofficially playtest them.
I am with you on the MM tweet he made, though I see it as what he thought the MM RAW should have been as it would have speeded up gameplay, but the individuals that comprised the rules committee decided on sticking with the general intent of how the spell works based on the fact that the Magic Missile spell has been a core part of the D&D game since the 1978 BECMI days and changed little till 4e reared it's ugly head. They kept the spirit, but shortened the body of text of the spells intent.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
How? At the level you get empowered evocation there are so many better options than magic missile.
Which options? Magic missile with +5 damage per dart is at least comparable to and usually better than other spells for a single target.
You' argument is that at level 10 and only at level 10 is magic missile worth it. Especially cosidering a tier 3 cantrip, just one level higher, does one point less damage, on average, and doesn't cost a spell slot at all.
How? At the level you get empowered evocation there are so many better options than magic missile.
Which options? Magic missile with +5 damage per dart is at least comparable to and usually better than other spells for a single target.
You' argument is that at level 10 and only at level 10 is magic missile worth it. Especially cosidering a tier 3 cantrip, just one level higher, does one point less damage, on average, and doesn't cost a spell slot at all.
You're clearly misunderstanding something. Even with a first level spell slot, magic missile is doing 25.5 damage on average with no chance to miss. Fire bolt at 11th-level is doing 16.5 if it hits; assuming a 60% hit change, that's 9.9 damage, less than 40% of magic missile. But at 11th level, You can cast magic missile with a 6th-level spell slot, so its damage becomes 68, of a rarely-resisted type, with exactly 0 chance of missing. That's certainly not as good as chain lightning if you manage to get four targets who all fail their saving throws, but with two targets, chain lightning is now averaging 67.5 lightning damage (assuming a 50% save rate). 67.5 lightning versus 68 force? Lunali's argument is definitely sound.
How? At the level you get empowered evocation there are so many better options than magic missile.
Which options? Magic missile with +5 damage per dart is at least comparable to and usually better than other spells for a single target.
You' argument is that at level 10 and only at level 10 is magic missile worth it. Especially cosidering a tier 3 cantrip, just one level higher, does one point less damage, on average, and doesn't cost a spell slot at all.
You're clearly misunderstanding something. Even with a first level spell slot, magic missile is doing 25.5 damage on average with no chance to miss. Fire bolt at 11th-level is doing 16.5 if it hits; assuming a 60% hit change, that's 9.9 damage, less than 40% of magic missile. But at 11th level, You can cast magic missile with a 6th-level spell slot, so its damage becomes 68, of a rarely-resisted type, with exactly 0 chance of missing. That's certainly not as good as chain lightning if you manage to get four targets who all fail their saving throws, but with two targets, chain lightning is now averaging 67.5 lightning damage (assuming a 50% save rate). 67.5 lightning versus 68 force? Lunali's argument is definitely sound.
Hardly, I was sticking to cantrips and 1st level spells. If you upcast then you open up a whole host of other options, chain liightning, fireball, lightning bolt, etc. Then you get the duration spells like cloud kill, and bigby's hand and animate object. And before you argue about AoE being included, this is only for evokers and they got sculpt spell at 2nd level. Looking at single target hold person and hold monster or charm monster, charm person, suggestion, etc.
Going back to 1st level though, if 25.5 damage is going to take a target out then sleep is a valid option and only 3 pts lower.
With due respect, I don't think you understood what I was saying. RAI is how things should be. RAW is how things are. In a perfect world, intent is conveyed perfectly by RAW and the two are identical, but this world being imperfect, they usually are not.
Crawford tweeted that he believes RAI, i.e. how how it should be interpreted if you care about what they were trying to say, is DM choice of interpretations, i.e. deliberately open ended. I am arguing that reflects his intent better than WotC's.
Thus when he says RAW is only the one die being rolled, I take that as being his understanding of WotC's official stand on this rule (RAW), since it disagrees with how he thinks it should be interpreted (RAI).
i.e. in this case, when he is talking about RAW, he is talking about opinions other than his own, those of WotC.
If your talking about using one roll and applying the result to all darts created, I have no issue with it, and use that method off and on. if Crawford had simply put "Roll 1d4+1 and apply to all darts created." it would have put to bed the rolling of multiple dice rolls.
However, if your talking about using only one roll for damage and then using that to apply the RAW from p196: Damage and Healing, then you have a massive problem.
The problem would be you would ether have to ignore nearly 70% of the Magic Missile spell as written, or completely rewrite the spell around that singular change. That would constitute a huge shift of both Intent and Interpretation, not to mention a complete change in printing of the rules book, and the headache it would bring.
If WotC's intent was to have the spell make only one roll for damage for the purpose of referring/applying the RAW of p196 , then that would have been the RAW and RAI of the spell from the getgo, and this would all be moot.
But he (Crawford) added the RAW p196 reference, and shot himself in the foot. Maybe he was trying to clarify the "simultaneous" part of MM, in that all darts hitting a target is considered a single hit for purposes of death saves and class abilities?
As the Knight in the third RotLA said: "He chose poorly"
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You seem to be discounting the concept that a spell can hit the same target multiple times. Applying this ruling to other similar spells, with Melf's Minute Meteors, the caster would roll 2d6 and if someone is hit by the blasts of two meteors, they take whatever was rolled twice (subject to a saving throw, of course). Similar on a much larger scale (both area and damage) with Meteor Swarm.
A single blast AE like Fireball, in contrast, only does one blast, so no one his hit twice by the same fireball.
If anything, it is the 'only one death or concentration save' rule that is artificial and inconsistent.
The differences are that magic missile is explicitly called out as simultaneous, and that the damage from the darts don't depend on additional rolls (saving throws/attack rolls).
You seem to be discounting the concept that a spell can hit the same target multiple times.
A spell cannot in fact hit the same target multiple times simultaneously -- if the durations overlap (which, for instantaneous spells, is only possible if the effects are simultaneous) only the largest effect applies. This isn't a problem for most spells because they don't specify simultaneous (meteor swarm specifically forbids affecting the same target multiple times).
With due respect, I don't think you understood what I was saying. RAI is how things should be. RAW is how things are. In a perfect world, intent is conveyed perfectly by RAW and the two are identical, but this world being imperfect, they usually are not.
Crawford tweeted that he believes RAI, i.e. how how it should be interpreted if you care about what they were trying to say, is DM choice of interpretations, i.e. deliberately open ended. I am arguing that reflects his intent better than WotC's.
Thus when he says RAW is only the one die being rolled, I take that as being his understanding of WotC's official stand on this rule (RAW), since it disagrees with how he thinks it should be interpreted (RAI).
i.e. in this case, when he is talking about RAW, he is talking about opinions other than his own, those of WotC.
If your talking about using one roll and applying the result to all darts created, I have no issue with it, and use that method off and on. if Crawford had simply put "Roll 1d4+1 and apply to all darts created." it would have put to bed the rolling of multiple dice rolls.
However, if your talking about using only one roll for damage and then using that to apply the RAW from p196: Damage and Healing, then you have a massive problem.
The problem would be you would ether have to ignore nearly 70% of the Magic Missile spell as written, or completely rewrite the spell around that singular change. That would constitute a huge shift of both Intent and Interpretation, not to mention a complete change in printing of the rules book, and the headache it would bring.
If WotC's intent was to have the spell make only one roll for damage for the purpose of referring/applying the RAW of p196 , then that would have been the RAW and RAI of the spell from the getgo, and this would all be moot.
But he (Crawford) added the RAW p196 reference, and shot himself in the foot. Maybe he was trying to clarify the "simultaneous" part of MM, in that all darts hitting a target is considered a single hit for purposes of death saves and class abilities?
As the Knight in the third RotLA said: "He chose poorly"
You seem to be discounting the concept that a spell can hit the same target multiple times. Applying this ruling to other similar spells, with Melf's Minute Meteors, the caster would roll 2d6 and if someone is hit by the blasts of two meteors, they take whatever was rolled twice (subject to a saving throw, of course). Similar on a much larger scale (both area and damage) with Meteor Swarm.
A single blast AE like Fireball, in contrast, only does one blast, so no one his hit twice by the same fireball.
If anything, it is the 'only one death or concentration save' rule that is artificial and inconsistent.
Didn't discount the multi-strike part of the rule at all, and if you look back several dozen or more post I had addressed it.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
5e has death saves, class abilities, and etc that are triggered per their rules when hit, had the bolded and italicized wording been used as part of the written rule, the whole matter of "simultaneous" means AOE so RAW per p196 would never have become an issue.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
Patently false. There are multiple consequences of being simultaneous, not just your personal favorite.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
Patently false. There are multiple consequences of being simultaneous, not just your personal favorite.
Didn't discount the multi-strike part of the rule at all, and if you look back several dozen or more post I had addressed it.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
5e has death saves, class abilities, and etc that are triggered per their rules when hit, had the bolded and italicized wording been used as part of the written rule, the whole matter of "simultaneous" means AOE so RAW per p196 would never have become an issue.
Again, the counter-argument is that it is not an AE in the normal sense but X missiles worth of individual target damage.
To direct you back to the rules on AE's:
"Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell’s effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn’t included in the spell’s area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."
Magic Missile can hit multiple targets but does not 'cover an area.' It is a spell with X individual effects, not a spell that hits X targets. If you direct all the missiles at the same target, it is no longer a spell that deals damage to more than one target.
And as for that intent with death saves, the wording in sage advice regarding concentration checks seems to disagree with you.
First, where the the RAW of Magic Missile spell does it give any indication of where the spells "Point of Origin" is and the shape of the spell if it were an AoE? self? If that were the case, ether the spells description header or the description text would make that clear, as per the spells you used as examples, and the wording of AOE : A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere.
All we get is a distance range, and no idea where in space a missile(s)/dart(s) is created. could be right next to it's target, could be 120 feet away.
Second, the very word "simultaneously" means "at the same time." If all directed missiles/darts hit their target(s)/creature(s) at the same time as individual effects how do you differentiate which missile/dart does what damage, or forces any sort of check? Are you going to slow, or even possibly stop, the game to sit there and hash out the details?
And as for the edge cases where you choose and hit a single target, those are few given the larger number of cases where multiple targets may be selected with a variable number of darts. Are you going to ignore the many, for just a few? Or will you cover the many, covering all?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
Patently false. There are multiple consequences of being simultaneous, not just your personal favorite.
Didn't discount the multi-strike part of the rule at all, and if you look back several dozen or more post I had addressed it.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
5e has death saves, class abilities, and etc that are triggered per their rules when hit, had the bolded and italicized wording been used as part of the written rule, the whole matter of "simultaneous" means AOE so RAW per p196 would never have become an issue.
Again, the counter-argument is that it is not an AE in the normal sense but X missiles worth of individual target damage.
To direct you back to the rules on AE's:
"Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell’s effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn’t included in the spell’s area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."
Magic Missile can hit multiple targets but does not 'cover an area.' It is a spell with X individual effects, not a spell that hits X targets. If you direct all the missiles at the same target, it is no longer a spell that deals damage to more than one target.
And as for that intent with death saves, the wording in sage advice regarding concentration checks seems to disagree with you.
First, where the the RAW of Magic Missile spell does it give any indication of where the spells "Point of Origin" is and the shape of the spell if it were an AoE? self? If that were the case, ether the spells description header or the description text would make that clear, as per the spells you used as examples, and the wording of AOE : A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere.
All we get is a distance range, and no idea where in space a missile(s)/dart(s) is created. could be right next to it's target, could be 120 feet away.
Second, the very word "simultaneously" means "at the same time." If all directed missiles/darts hit their target(s)/creature(s) at the same time as individual effects how do you differentiate which missile/dart does what damage, or forces any sort of check? Are you going to slow, or even possibly stop, the game to sit there and hash out the details?
And as for the edge cases where you choose and hit a single target, those are few given the larger number of cases where multiple targets may be selected with a variable number of darts. Are you going to ignore the many, for just a few? Or will you cover the many, covering all?
1) Point of origin is you. 'You fire.'
2) I was arguing that the spell is not an AE, so shape of the AE is not applicable.
3) Whether the missiles hit for the same damage each or separately rolled damage, they all hit their respective targets. So if the target was conscious before the spell, there are no checks for death saves because they were not unconscious when the darts all hit. For concentration checks, again, one check per dart. It does not matter if the person fails on their first or their Nth check. If they lose concentration, it does not fall until after all the damage has concluded. Why would this be so hard to resolve?
4) Why would it be an edge case to fire them all at a single target? Unless you are still only 1st level, you are almost certainly better concentrating fire.
I agree on point 2, not an AOE.
point 1, again nowhere in the description, so moot.
point 4, edge cases are if you target one creature and upcast the spell then that would be 9 edge cases verses the cases where there are multiple targets getting variable numbers of darts and the spell is upcasted. The shear number of non edges cases far outweigh the number of edge cases. But do agree if are targeting a single creature, best to unload everything and overkill then find yourself short one shot.
point 3, split on agreement:
The first part "Whether the missiles hit for the same damage each or separately rolled damage, they all hit their respective targets. So if the target was conscious before the spell, there are no checks for death saves because they were not unconscious when the darts all hit." On this I agree.
The second part is where I disagree: "For concentration checks, again, one check per dart."
This points back to the "simultaneously" aka "all at the same time" part of the rule. It's a cheap way to address what a player/creature has to do with regards to death saves, concentration checks, etc. and appears as the primary source of contention of what the intention of the spell is. The creature(s) get hit by all darts directed at them "at the same time", not one dart at a time. If they were hit one at a time, that "simultaneously" word would not have been used, and instead wording such as "checks are made for each dart that targets and hits one creature or several."
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
1) 'You fire' is in the description. Nowhere in the description is any other origin point than yourself mentioned.
Magic Missile:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot above 1st.
So where again does it say ANYWHERE in the description "you fire"? [ nowhere in the MM spell description anywhere has "You fire" unless your playing an old Forgotten Realms edition ]
3) Where, exactly, is this 'simultaneous must all be the same source' qualifier? You make a check per source. If you, say, tripped three separate traps at once (say, overlapping glyph of warding triggers), does that all count as one 'source' simply because they are all simultaneous? The argument is that each missile is a separate source, since the missiles are targeted individually.
The "simultaneous must all be the same source" qualifier comes from the description of the MM spell itself. "The darts all strike simultaneously" is the same as "The darts all strike at the same time". If all the darts are striking at the same time, instantaneously, you cannot say the darts strike "one at a time". So for concentration checks, death saves, only one death failure is gained, one concentration check is made.
Just because individually you must choose what creatures you target, does not mean when the instantaneous simultaneous effect of the spell triggers you can "check per dart". [ unless you want to homerule that, then just remember balance means if you as a player can do it, so can the DM and vice-versa. ]
And yes I have looked at both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm, Melf is just a way smaller version of Meteor Swarm as both are AOE's. MM as you agreed is not an AOE, as it does not have the check for half, or a specified "area of effect from a point of origin" that those two spells have within their respective descriptions.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
1) 'You fire' is in the description. Nowhere in the description is any other origin point than yourself mentioned.
Magic Missile:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot above 1st.
So where again does it say ANYWHERE in the description "you fire"? [ nowhere in the MM spell description anywhere has "You fire" unless your playing an old Forgotten Realms edition ]
3) Where, exactly, is this 'simultaneous must all be the same source' qualifier? You make a check per source. If you, say, tripped three separate traps at once (say, overlapping glyph of warding triggers), does that all count as one 'source' simply because they are all simultaneous? The argument is that each missile is a separate source, since the missiles are targeted individually.
The "simultaneous must all be the same source" qualifier comes from the description of the MM spell itself. "The darts all strike simultaneously" is the same as "The darts all strike at the same time". If all the darts are striking at the same time, instantaneously, you cannot say the darts strike "one at a time". So for concentration checks, death saves, only one death failure is gained, one concentration check is made.
Just because individually you must choose what creatures you target, does not mean when the instantaneous simultaneous effect of the spell triggers you can "check per dart". [ unless you want to homerule that, then just remember balance means if you as a player can do it, so can the DM and vice-versa. ]
And yes I have looked at both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm, Melf is just a way smaller version of Meteor Swarm as both are AOE's. MM as you agreed is not an AOE, as it does not have the check for half, or a specified "area of effect from a point of origin" that those two spells have within their respective descriptions.
Ok, 'you fire' vs 'you create.' It does not specify them being created remotely, so the assumption is they fly from you to the target.
I asked you where the rule is that simultaneous damage is therefore all from the same source. I did NOT ask you why you thought the darts were simultaneous. I repeat my contention, which you have yet to even acknowledge, that regardless of being simultaneous, each dart is still an individual dart and therefore each its own source.
My point regarding the meteor spells is that they are similar. Have you even read them? They are not 'one AE.' They create multiple separate directable AE's. So while they are AE's, my point is each AE is its own separate source of damage.
Yes, I have read both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm. Both are AoE in the context of their respective descriptions, that from a specified distance from a point of impact ( aka spell effects "point of origin" ), both force save checks for half damage, and both have several "point of origin" for the number of meteors that are created. these spells create no conflict per RAW p196.
However, your trying to compare apples to oranges. Magic Missile does not force save checks for half, has no relative absolute "point of origin" from which damage to multiple targets/creatures is based on "one roll for all" per RAW p196, and is specific in it's (Magic Missile spell) wording and context in how a DM and caster apply the effect of the spell at the completion of said spell.
WotC and Jeremy Crawford have said, the DM adjudicates the rules as they wish. Yet nowhere in any official printed text, SAC, Errata, or elsewhere has a change to RAW of the Magic Missile spell been made.
Just because one individual in name and title tried to change the context and wording of a specific set of Rules As Written, years after they were official by WotC standards, do people still try and use his words as official rulings.
WotC has a team of designers that agreed/agree to what the wording of the rules were/are, and one has to go though that WotC team review process before any alteration is published and official.
The context of the RAW of Magic Missile is that at the completion of the spell, all darts instantaneously and simultaneously hit their respective target(s)/creature(s) as though they ( the darts ) were one.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
1) 'You fire' is in the description. Nowhere in the description is any other origin point than yourself mentioned.
Magic Missile:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot above 1st.
So where again does it say ANYWHERE in the description "you fire"? [ nowhere in the MM spell description anywhere has "You fire" unless your playing an old Forgotten Realms edition ]
3) Where, exactly, is this 'simultaneous must all be the same source' qualifier? You make a check per source. If you, say, tripped three separate traps at once (say, overlapping glyph of warding triggers), does that all count as one 'source' simply because they are all simultaneous? The argument is that each missile is a separate source, since the missiles are targeted individually.
The "simultaneous must all be the same source" qualifier comes from the description of the MM spell itself. "The darts all strike simultaneously" is the same as "The darts all strike at the same time". If all the darts are striking at the same time, instantaneously, you cannot say the darts strike "one at a time". So for concentration checks, death saves, only one death failure is gained, one concentration check is made.
Just because individually you must choose what creatures you target, does not mean when the instantaneous simultaneous effect of the spell triggers you can "check per dart". [ unless you want to homerule that, then just remember balance means if you as a player can do it, so can the DM and vice-versa. ]
And yes I have looked at both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm, Melf is just a way smaller version of Meteor Swarm as both are AOE's. MM as you agreed is not an AOE, as it does not have the check for half, or a specified "area of effect from a point of origin" that those two spells have within their respective descriptions.
Ok, 'you fire' vs 'you create.' It does not specify them being created remotely, so the assumption is they fly from you to the target.
I asked you where the rule is that simultaneous damage is therefore all from the same source. I did NOT ask you why you thought the darts were simultaneous. I repeat my contention, which you have yet to even acknowledge, that regardless of being simultaneous, each dart is still an individual dart and therefore each its own source.
My point regarding the meteor spells is that they are similar. Have you even read them? They are not 'one AE.' They create multiple separate directable AE's. So while they are AE's, my point is each AE is its own separate source of damage.
Yes, I have read both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm. Both are AoE in the context of their respective descriptions, that from a specified distance from a point of impact ( aka spell effects "point of origin" ), both force save checks for half damage, and both have several "point of origin" for the number of meteors that are created. these spells create no conflict per RAW p196.
However, your trying to compare apples to oranges. Magic Missile does not force save checks for half, has no relative absolute "point of origin" from which damage to multiple targets/creatures is based on "one roll for all" per RAW p196, and is specific in it's (Magic Missile spell) wording and context in how a DM and caster apply the effect of the spell at the completion of said spell.
WotC and Jeremy Crawford have said, the DM adjudicates the rules as they wish. Yet nowhere in any official printed text, SAC, Errata, or elsewhere has a change to RAW of the Magic Missile spell been made.
Just because one individual in name and title tried to change the context and wording of a specific set of Rules As Written, years after they were official by WotC standards, do people still try and use his words as official rulings.
WotC has a team of designers that agreed/agree to what the wording of the rules were/are, and one has to go though that WotC team review process before any alteration is published and official.
The context of the RAW of Magic Missile is that at the completion of the spell, all darts instantaneously and simultaneously hit their respective target(s)/creature(s) as though they ( the darts ) were one.
Please show me where there is anything about having to force saves for half in the AE damage rules. 'As though they (the darts) were one' is nowhere in the rules. Yes, they hit simultaneously. However, there is nothing saying whether they are all considered the same source or separate sources.
Proof of this is simple. If you take it literally that all the darts are treated as one, then every target would take the full damage as if hit by all the darts. The moment you say 'Well it is all the darts hitting that target,' you have veered away from the pg. 196 rule. That rule on pg. 196 clearly relates to conventional AE's. The examples given are fireball and flame strike, which affect each creature in the area (and more specifically, within the area of a single blast, respectively) equally. There is no dice allocation with a fireball. Each die is not a separately targeted ball of fire. There is only one effect. That is the context of that rule.
Meteor Swarm: Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw.
Melf's Minute Meteor: Each creature within 5 feet of the point where the meteor explodes must make a Dexterity saving throw.
Sound to me like a forced saving throw.
I have now pointed out several of your attempts to argue the merits of your belief and have proved you wrong.
You can nit pick the conversation all you wish, the spell speaks for itself, and Crawford was completely wrong. Magic Missile is nowhere near any type of AOE spell nor does to conform to RAW per page 196.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
1) 'You fire' is in the description. Nowhere in the description is any other origin point than yourself mentioned.
Magic Missile:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot above 1st.
So where again does it say ANYWHERE in the description "you fire"? [ nowhere in the MM spell description anywhere has "You fire" unless your playing an old Forgotten Realms edition ]
3) Where, exactly, is this 'simultaneous must all be the same source' qualifier? You make a check per source. If you, say, tripped three separate traps at once (say, overlapping glyph of warding triggers), does that all count as one 'source' simply because they are all simultaneous? The argument is that each missile is a separate source, since the missiles are targeted individually.
The "simultaneous must all be the same source" qualifier comes from the description of the MM spell itself. "The darts all strike simultaneously" is the same as "The darts all strike at the same time". If all the darts are striking at the same time, instantaneously, you cannot say the darts strike "one at a time". So for concentration checks, death saves, only one death failure is gained, one concentration check is made.
Just because individually you must choose what creatures you target, does not mean when the instantaneous simultaneous effect of the spell triggers you can "check per dart". [ unless you want to homerule that, then just remember balance means if you as a player can do it, so can the DM and vice-versa. ]
And yes I have looked at both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm, Melf is just a way smaller version of Meteor Swarm as both are AOE's. MM as you agreed is not an AOE, as it does not have the check for half, or a specified "area of effect from a point of origin" that those two spells have within their respective descriptions.
I don’t agree with the assertion multiple darts hitting simultaneously would somehow be a single death save or concentration save. I’m not sure how that conclusion was reached either.
part of the strength of magic missile is that it’s accuracy and usually small damage from each dart would cause concentration saves to be made. This does have mechanical impact on creatures with low and high Con saves. 3 or more darts firing a probable DC 10 con save for concentration is part of what keeps this spell somewhat useful at higher levels. It’s also part of what would make it so dangerous at low levels with the multiple death save failures for PCs.
This also means that when facing a creature with substantial Constitution saves, that failure will be unlikely to impossible.
"dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target." This means that for each target you make a roll.
like if you do fireball its one big hit that can hit multiple people but magic missile is 3 smaller fireballs that a magical projectiles and deal force damage.
But say if you made all of them hit 1 person then you would roll 1d4+1 three times or 3d4+3 to get those modifiers. If its one attack then it would just end up being 3d4+1.
"dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target." This means that for each target you make a roll.
like if you do fireball its one big hit that can hit multiple people but magic missile is 3 smaller fireballs that a magical projectiles and deal force damage.
But say if you made all of them hit 1 person then you would roll 1d4+1 three times or 3d4+3 to get those modifiers. If its one attack then it would just end up being 3d4+1.
This feels like an argument that isn't really based in the language and function of the rules of the game. It looks to me to just be an assertion. What I mean is that the rules don't specifically say the things that you do; so what you've got here is your premade decision then some words from the rules that don't disagree with it.
I certainly understand that more dice is more fun, and I'd actually run the spell that way in my games. But in all honesty, the rules try their best to actually treat magic missile like other spells that damage more than one target simultaneously, and it sure seems like the authors want you to treat it that way based on the text of the spell.
And again, it is pretty expressly written that the damage is allocated per dart with this spell, and each dart gets its own target. So you'd have to be saying that each dart's target gets different damage, which, I repeat, I think the spell is trying to go out of its way to say shouldn't be the case. Otherwise it wouldn't tell you the damage was simultaneous, and you could treat the damage like firebolt or eldritch blast, whose damage occur expressly in sequence due to each coming from an attack.
But if you want to ignore that, as I said, that isn't really material to the balance of the game. I just certainly won't be rolling 8d6 for each creature that I hit with a fireball.
Also, your response sort of missed the point of my previous post, which was that the quote didn't really address rules, it just gave an assertion with ambiguous rules text as proof.
Historically magic missile has always been roll per dart, even back in 1e AD&D where it was a machine gun effect at higher levels. Magic missile isn't an AE spell, it isn't a single target spell, it is a multi-target spell.
Here is an analogy: Hold Person (don't worry about damage and ST for now)
Hold Person at 2nd level will target one person. The target will make a ST. Meaning its a single target spell at that level. Now up-cast Hold Person to 5th level. It now targets four people. Each individual making their own ST. One spell, multiple targets and individual effect for each.
WotC's statement - "The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes a preview of rulings that appear here." in the SAC along with JC's tweet was the agreement both made that the tweets were unofficial, as he was using them to unofficially playtest them.
I am with you on the MM tweet he made, though I see it as what he thought the MM RAW should have been as it would have speeded up gameplay, but the individuals that comprised the rules committee decided on sticking with the general intent of how the spell works based on the fact that the Magic Missile spell has been a core part of the D&D game since the 1978 BECMI days and changed little till 4e reared it's ugly head. They kept the spirit, but shortened the body of text of the spells intent.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You' argument is that at level 10 and only at level 10 is magic missile worth it. Especially cosidering a tier 3 cantrip, just one level higher, does one point less damage, on average, and doesn't cost a spell slot at all.
You're clearly misunderstanding something. Even with a first level spell slot, magic missile is doing 25.5 damage on average with no chance to miss. Fire bolt at 11th-level is doing 16.5 if it hits; assuming a 60% hit change, that's 9.9 damage, less than 40% of magic missile. But at 11th level, You can cast magic missile with a 6th-level spell slot, so its damage becomes 68, of a rarely-resisted type, with exactly 0 chance of missing. That's certainly not as good as chain lightning if you manage to get four targets who all fail their saving throws, but with two targets, chain lightning is now averaging 67.5 lightning damage (assuming a 50% save rate). 67.5 lightning versus 68 force? Lunali's argument is definitely sound.
Hardly, I was sticking to cantrips and 1st level spells. If you upcast then you open up a whole host of other options, chain liightning, fireball, lightning bolt, etc. Then you get the duration spells like cloud kill, and bigby's hand and animate object. And before you argue about AoE being included, this is only for evokers and they got sculpt spell at 2nd level. Looking at single target hold person and hold monster or charm monster, charm person, suggestion, etc.
Going back to 1st level though, if 25.5 damage is going to take a target out then sleep is a valid option and only 3 pts lower.
If your talking about using one roll and applying the result to all darts created, I have no issue with it, and use that method off and on. if Crawford had simply put "Roll 1d4+1 and apply to all darts created." it would have put to bed the rolling of multiple dice rolls.
However, if your talking about using only one roll for damage and then using that to apply the RAW from p196: Damage and Healing, then you have a massive problem.
The problem would be you would ether have to ignore nearly 70% of the Magic Missile spell as written, or completely rewrite the spell around that singular change. That would constitute a huge shift of both Intent and Interpretation, not to mention a complete change in printing of the rules book, and the headache it would bring.
If WotC's intent was to have the spell make only one roll for damage for the purpose of referring/applying the RAW of p196 , then that would have been the RAW and RAI of the spell from the getgo, and this would all be moot.
But he (Crawford) added the RAW p196 reference, and shot himself in the foot. Maybe he was trying to clarify the "simultaneous" part of MM, in that all darts hitting a target is considered a single hit for purposes of death saves and class abilities?
As the Knight in the third RotLA said: "He chose poorly"
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The differences are that magic missile is explicitly called out as simultaneous, and that the damage from the darts don't depend on additional rolls (saving throws/attack rolls).
A spell cannot in fact hit the same target multiple times simultaneously -- if the durations overlap (which, for instantaneous spells, is only possible if the effects are simultaneous) only the largest effect applies. This isn't a problem for most spells because they don't specify simultaneous (meteor swarm specifically forbids affecting the same target multiple times).
Didn't discount the multi-strike part of the rule at all, and if you look back several dozen or more post I had addressed it.
The "simultaneous" part refers to the intent that regardless of the number of darts that hit any number of target(s)/creature(s) "at the same time", it is treated as though the target(s)/creature(s) were hit once with the total damage rolled per dart.
5e has death saves, class abilities, and etc that are triggered per their rules when hit, had the bolded and italicized wording been used as part of the written rule, the whole matter of "simultaneous" means AOE so RAW per p196 would never have become an issue.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Patently false. There are multiple consequences of being simultaneous, not just your personal favorite.
First, where the the RAW of Magic Missile spell does it give any indication of where the spells "Point of Origin" is and the shape of the spell if it were an AoE? self? If that were the case, ether the spells description header or the description text would make that clear, as per the spells you used as examples, and the wording of AOE : A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere.
All we get is a distance range, and no idea where in space a missile(s)/dart(s) is created. could be right next to it's target, could be 120 feet away.
Second, the very word "simultaneously" means "at the same time." If all directed missiles/darts hit their target(s)/creature(s) at the same time as individual effects how do you differentiate which missile/dart does what damage, or forces any sort of check? Are you going to slow, or even possibly stop, the game to sit there and hash out the details?
And as for the edge cases where you choose and hit a single target, those are few given the larger number of cases where multiple targets may be selected with a variable number of darts. Are you going to ignore the many, for just a few? Or will you cover the many, covering all?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I agree on point 2, not an AOE.
point 1, again nowhere in the description, so moot.
point 4, edge cases are if you target one creature and upcast the spell then that would be 9 edge cases verses the cases where there are multiple targets getting variable numbers of darts and the spell is upcasted. The shear number of non edges cases far outweigh the number of edge cases. But do agree if are targeting a single creature, best to unload everything and overkill then find yourself short one shot.
point 3, split on agreement:
The first part "Whether the missiles hit for the same damage each or separately rolled damage, they all hit their respective targets. So if the target was conscious before the spell, there are no checks for death saves because they were not unconscious when the darts all hit." On this I agree.
The second part is where I disagree: "For concentration checks, again, one check per dart."
This points back to the "simultaneously" aka "all at the same time" part of the rule. It's a cheap way to address what a player/creature has to do with regards to death saves, concentration checks, etc. and appears as the primary source of contention of what the intention of the spell is. The creature(s) get hit by all darts directed at them "at the same time", not one dart at a time. If they were hit one at a time, that "simultaneously" word would not have been used, and instead wording such as "checks are made for each dart that targets and hits one creature or several."
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Magic Missile:
So where again does it say ANYWHERE in the description "you fire"? [ nowhere in the MM spell description anywhere has "You fire" unless your playing an old Forgotten Realms edition ]
The "simultaneous must all be the same source" qualifier comes from the description of the MM spell itself. "The darts all strike simultaneously" is the same as "The darts all strike at the same time". If all the darts are striking at the same time, instantaneously, you cannot say the darts strike "one at a time". So for concentration checks, death saves, only one death failure is gained, one concentration check is made.
Just because individually you must choose what creatures you target, does not mean when the instantaneous simultaneous effect of the spell triggers you can "check per dart". [ unless you want to homerule that, then just remember balance means if you as a player can do it, so can the DM and vice-versa. ]
And yes I have looked at both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm, Melf is just a way smaller version of Meteor Swarm as both are AOE's. MM as you agreed is not an AOE, as it does not have the check for half, or a specified "area of effect from a point of origin" that those two spells have within their respective descriptions.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yes, I have read both Melf's Minute Meteor and Meteor Swarm. Both are AoE in the context of their respective descriptions, that from a specified distance from a point of impact ( aka spell effects "point of origin" ), both force save checks for half damage, and both have several "point of origin" for the number of meteors that are created. these spells create no conflict per RAW p196.
However, your trying to compare apples to oranges. Magic Missile does not force save checks for half, has no relative absolute "point of origin" from which damage to multiple targets/creatures is based on "one roll for all" per RAW p196, and is specific in it's (Magic Missile spell) wording and context in how a DM and caster apply the effect of the spell at the completion of said spell.
WotC and Jeremy Crawford have said, the DM adjudicates the rules as they wish. Yet nowhere in any official printed text, SAC, Errata, or elsewhere has a change to RAW of the Magic Missile spell been made.
Just because one individual in name and title tried to change the context and wording of a specific set of Rules As Written, years after they were official by WotC standards, do people still try and use his words as official rulings.
WotC has a team of designers that agreed/agree to what the wording of the rules were/are, and one has to go though that WotC team review process before any alteration is published and official.
The context of the RAW of Magic Missile is that at the completion of the spell, all darts instantaneously and simultaneously hit their respective target(s)/creature(s) as though they ( the darts ) were one.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Meteor Swarm: Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw.
Melf's Minute Meteor: Each creature within 5 feet of the point where the meteor explodes must make a Dexterity saving throw.
Sound to me like a forced saving throw.
I have now pointed out several of your attempts to argue the merits of your belief and have proved you wrong.
You can nit pick the conversation all you wish, the spell speaks for itself, and Crawford was completely wrong. Magic Missile is nowhere near any type of AOE spell nor does to conform to RAW per page 196.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Why can't we delete posts from our phones?
I don’t agree with the assertion multiple darts hitting simultaneously would somehow be a single death save or concentration save. I’m not sure how that conclusion was reached either.
part of the strength of magic missile is that it’s accuracy and usually small damage from each dart would cause concentration saves to be made. This does have mechanical impact on creatures with low and high Con saves. 3 or more darts firing a probable DC 10 con save for concentration is part of what keeps this spell somewhat useful at higher levels. It’s also part of what would make it so dangerous at low levels with the multiple death save failures for PCs.
This also means that when facing a creature with substantial Constitution saves, that failure will be unlikely to impossible.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/magic-missile
"dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target." This means that for each target you make a roll.
like if you do fireball its one big hit that can hit multiple people but magic missile is 3 smaller fireballs that a magical projectiles and deal force damage.
But say if you made all of them hit 1 person then you would roll 1d4+1 three times or 3d4+3 to get those modifiers. If its one attack then it would just end up being 3d4+1.
This feels like an argument that isn't really based in the language and function of the rules of the game. It looks to me to just be an assertion. What I mean is that the rules don't specifically say the things that you do; so what you've got here is your premade decision then some words from the rules that don't disagree with it.
I certainly understand that more dice is more fun, and I'd actually run the spell that way in my games. But in all honesty, the rules try their best to actually treat magic missile like other spells that damage more than one target simultaneously, and it sure seems like the authors want you to treat it that way based on the text of the spell.
And again, it is pretty expressly written that the damage is allocated per dart with this spell, and each dart gets its own target. So you'd have to be saying that each dart's target gets different damage, which, I repeat, I think the spell is trying to go out of its way to say shouldn't be the case. Otherwise it wouldn't tell you the damage was simultaneous, and you could treat the damage like firebolt or eldritch blast, whose damage occur expressly in sequence due to each coming from an attack.
But if you want to ignore that, as I said, that isn't really material to the balance of the game. I just certainly won't be rolling 8d6 for each creature that I hit with a fireball.
Also, your response sort of missed the point of my previous post, which was that the quote didn't really address rules, it just gave an assertion with ambiguous rules text as proof.
Historically magic missile has always been roll per dart, even back in 1e AD&D where it was a machine gun effect at higher levels. Magic missile isn't an AE spell, it isn't a single target spell, it is a multi-target spell.
Here is an analogy: Hold Person (don't worry about damage and ST for now)
Hold Person at 2nd level will target one person. The target will make a ST. Meaning its a single target spell at that level. Now up-cast Hold Person to 5th level. It now targets four people. Each individual making their own ST. One spell, multiple targets and individual effect for each.