I know I'm creating a lot of stealth posts but the next session stealth will be crucial and I want to have a solid grasp in how to execute it. My problem is with the rules of moving stealthy. The manual says that you must perform stealth checks to keep hidden until you stop being stealthy but it doesn't specify frecuency. Searching in internet i have found that people say you can move (with stealth) freely behind a cover as long as being hidden is a posibility and you pass one stealth check. Even if that's true, wich seems to me a bit strange, What do you do when you can be stealthy in a huge area, due to darkness or invisibility?
So, in summary, what do you do with stealth. One check if you can be hidden due to cover, darkness or invisibility? Many checks? When do you perform the checks? etc... any advises would be helpfull.
I'm also a bit confused with moving stealthy behind enemies (like in a videogame) is that a thing that you allow in your games? I know you can attack an enemy with stealth in a combat but I'm thinking more of infiltrating behind them.
Unless you're in an active combat where one or more of the guards are aware and hostile of one or more of the character, I would limit the amounts of rolls to a few segments. So roll once to approach/enter the location, then a (more difficult) roll to sneak around to find the position of interest (or more rolls, if they first failed at perception or investigation to find it), and one roll to leave.
In a combat situation, leaving your cover effectively blows your stealth, as does the opponents moving around the cover to get a clear sight at you, so I'd call for a stealth roll every turn they move or act except if behind total cover.
Well that sucks a bit from me. I really want to use a system that I can consistently apply to most of the situations, as I tend to be a villain DM and I really want to be 100% fair to the players to guarentee that, even do it can be hard I'm not trying to "win" them. Also, I like your approach twooshort, but it doesn't seem enough to me, as it still has the problem that barely takes into account the time that you must keep stealthy.
What I'm really going for is limiting the amount of repeated rolls, because one only has to roll badly once to fail completely in most stealth situations. I'd raise the DC instead for tense situations where everything is on the line rather than force a failure by asking for multiple rolls.
This post has a link to a podcast, I believe where Jeremy Crawford talks about stealth. I think it is a few minutes in, but it has some good info on it.
D&D isn’t really designed for stealth boards like a video game. As tooshort noted, one bad roll (or good perception roll from the guards) can turn it into a combat real quick. In video games, players have been trained that they can usually just hide for a few seconds, and the guards will give up looking; and if there’s a fight in one room, the guards in the hallway won’t hear it and come running; and no one thinks to wonder why a cardboard box just appears in the middle of a field. D&D assumes that people will hear things and notice things and think like people instead of AI.
My suggestion would be to certainly have a way for players to sneak past some obstacles, but be prepared for the dice to say otherwise.
As for how often to make checks, you could do it say once per round. Even if you haven’t rolled initiative, you know a person moves at half speed while sneaking, so if they move and dash, most can go 25-30’ per round, so you could do a check every 30’. Or as above, and particularly if you want to make it likely for the players to succeed, do fewer checks. One to get close, one to get by, one to get away, maybe.
For simple reconnaissance, I usually make may players do a check to approach, and a check to leave. If they are interacting with stuff i have them do sleight of hand checks or stealth checks (depends on the interaction) for each interaction while using stealth if the interaction could reasonably be detected by the guard.
Also, a failed check doesn't always mean combat, but it might put the guard on alert (active perception vs passive) of make them come search the area the PC is in.
It seems to me the Basic Rules would indicate making a Stealth check when conditions allow and comparing it against either a Passive Perception that can have a modifier applied due to circumstances.
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
I feel that a character may use their action to make a Perception roll if they have reason to suspect the need for doing so.
I was one month out, but thank you all guys for your answers.
For me the problem is still the "when" to perform the stealth checks. For me Lyxen has the RAW answer, but I just have to say i really don't like it.
For example, in my last game a player went invisible, crossed the streets of a city, entered the royal hall, slided behind the king and killed him. For me the scene was perfect, but i really struggle with the stealth. If I only performed one stealth check and it failed, How could I decide if it failed in the streets (low risk of having trouble) or in the palace (high risk of having trouble). And, with multiple checks, when should i call for them? When entering the streets? In the streets? When entering the palace? When moving through the palace? When placing behind the king? You may tell me that, as DM, I should make judgement calls, but, in my opinion, without basic guidelines, they would be arbitrary calls, and, as DM, I hate being arbitrary (each day i will tend to segment stealth areas more or less depending on my mood, making the success of stealth more dependent in my mood than in pc stats, player decisions and rolls).
I think that the designers created stealth considering that a player could only be stealthy in reduced areas using cover. But with invisibility and/or darkness you can move through large areas in stealth, making that system (for me) very inadecuate.
What I'm really going for is limiting the amount of repeated rolls, because one only has to roll badly once to fail completely in most stealth situations. I'd raise the DC instead for tense situations where everything is on the line rather than force a failure by asking for multiple rolls.
It does not have to be a single bad roll that ends the whole stealth attempt.
This is a difficult question that comes up from time to time and it usually ends in "Maybe."
If the DM requires too many stealth checks the consequence is the players always fail. Eventually you will roll poorly no matter what modifier. However, if only a single roll is required, then the player might "get away" with pulling off the seemingly impossible. I was in a similar situation not many days ago where my DM required each PC to make a stealth check as we tried to sneak in a little closer to the enemy camp. The Ranger had a great modifier but the Paladin in heavy armor was terrible.
I like the way Matt Colville (watch his Youtube videos called "Running the Game") handles this. When a PC wishes to sneak around the enemy they have to make a stealth roll. If that fails during the attempt, the enemy has to make an investigation or a perception check. And usually there is a third or fourth check before the situation deteriorates into "Roll for Initiative."
There is one specific video I can't locate at the moment that goes through his idea of making a series of rolls to check for sneaking around successfully.
Thanks for your help Lyxen. I'm kind of a new breed DM. I started as DM two years ago (I never played as a player) and only directed 5th edition (and one cthulhu game). I listened the complete saga advice part of the podcast. The assassination of the king was not a problem at all, it was the main quest and he was more like a pretentious local chieftain that called himself king.
My problem was rulling it. Situation: The streets where full of commoners and guards; inside the king's hall, there were six guards, two veterans and one noble (the king).
The problem appeared when he went invisible, left his house and started walking towards the hall. I asked for one stealth check and he failed it (had less than the guards passive perception) and in that moment i didn't knew what to do. How could I decide where he was detected? If he was detected the moment he performed the failed roll he would be detected by the first guards and he could easily avoid them and repeat the process until he got a roll good enough to pass the first guards, and once he passed the first guards he would be undetectable because there wasn't any in the city (well more like a small, underground town) with more passive perception. If, in the other hand, I choose that a failed roll means that he will be detected somewhere else in all the stealth segment, how can I decide where he was detected? I cannot just make that decision by myself because telling him "you have been detected outside the royal hall" means he can just do it again and telling him "you have been detected in the royal hall" means that he is basically dead. I don't mind killing characters, but, puting a extreme example, if i had to decide if they were teleported inside a pit lava or flowers, I would need to roll a die for that decision, because if I didn't roll i would always lean to the kind option. And yes, in this case is easy to decide with a roll because it's a binary option but in an stealth segment options don't tend to be so simple.
In the end the player just used luck (bullshit) and got a roll good enough to perform his assassination with success, but for a few seconds all that i wrote in this message went through my head while I entered panic. And for the next time I want to be prepared.
Hi guys.
I know I'm creating a lot of stealth posts but the next session stealth will be crucial and I want to have a solid grasp in how to execute it.
My problem is with the rules of moving stealthy. The manual says that you must perform stealth checks to keep hidden until you stop being stealthy but it doesn't specify frecuency. Searching in internet i have found that people say you can move (with stealth) freely behind a cover as long as being hidden is a posibility and you pass one stealth check. Even if that's true, wich seems to me a bit strange, What do you do when you can be stealthy in a huge area, due to darkness or invisibility?
So, in summary, what do you do with stealth. One check if you can be hidden due to cover, darkness or invisibility? Many checks? When do you perform the checks? etc... any advises would be helpfull.
I'm also a bit confused with moving stealthy behind enemies (like in a videogame) is that a thing that you allow in your games? I know you can attack an enemy with stealth in a combat but I'm thinking more of infiltrating behind them.
Unless you're in an active combat where one or more of the guards are aware and hostile of one or more of the character, I would limit the amounts of rolls to a few segments. So roll once to approach/enter the location, then a (more difficult) roll to sneak around to find the position of interest (or more rolls, if they first failed at perception or investigation to find it), and one roll to leave.
In a combat situation, leaving your cover effectively blows your stealth, as does the opponents moving around the cover to get a clear sight at you, so I'd call for a stealth roll every turn they move or act except if behind total cover.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
The rules intentionally put your sutiation squarely in the realm of the DM's judgment.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well that sucks a bit from me.
I really want to use a system that I can consistently apply to most of the situations, as I tend to be a villain DM and I really want to be 100% fair to the players to guarentee that, even do it can be hard I'm not trying to "win" them.
Also, I like your approach twooshort, but it doesn't seem enough to me, as it still has the problem that barely takes into account the time that you must keep stealthy.
What I'm really going for is limiting the amount of repeated rolls, because one only has to roll badly once to fail completely in most stealth situations. I'd raise the DC instead for tense situations where everything is on the line rather than force a failure by asking for multiple rolls.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2793-stealth-advice-from-jeremy-crawford
This post has a link to a podcast, I believe where Jeremy Crawford talks about stealth. I think it is a few minutes in, but it has some good info on it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
D&D isn’t really designed for stealth boards like a video game. As tooshort noted, one bad roll (or good perception roll from the guards) can turn it into a combat real quick. In video games, players have been trained that they can usually just hide for a few seconds, and the guards will give up looking; and if there’s a fight in one room, the guards in the hallway won’t hear it and come running; and no one thinks to wonder why a cardboard box just appears in the middle of a field. D&D assumes that people will hear things and notice things and think like people instead of AI.
My suggestion would be to certainly have a way for players to sneak past some obstacles, but be prepared for the dice to say otherwise.
As for how often to make checks, you could do it say once per round. Even if you haven’t rolled initiative, you know a person moves at half speed while sneaking, so if they move and dash, most can go 25-30’ per round, so you could do a check every 30’. Or as above, and particularly if you want to make it likely for the players to succeed, do fewer checks. One to get close, one to get by, one to get away, maybe.
For simple reconnaissance, I usually make may players do a check to approach, and a check to leave. If they are interacting with stuff i have them do sleight of hand checks or stealth checks (depends on the interaction) for each interaction while using stealth if the interaction could reasonably be detected by the guard.
Also, a failed check doesn't always mean combat, but it might put the guard on alert (active perception vs passive) of make them come search the area the PC is in.
It seems to me the Basic Rules would indicate making a Stealth check when conditions allow and comparing it against either a Passive Perception that can have a modifier applied due to circumstances.
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
I feel that a character may use their action to make a Perception roll if they have reason to suspect the need for doing so.
I was one month out, but thank you all guys for your answers.
For me the problem is still the "when" to perform the stealth checks. For me Lyxen has the RAW answer, but I just have to say i really don't like it.
For example, in my last game a player went invisible, crossed the streets of a city, entered the royal hall, slided behind the king and killed him. For me the scene was perfect, but i really struggle with the stealth. If I only performed one stealth check and it failed, How could I decide if it failed in the streets (low risk of having trouble) or in the palace (high risk of having trouble). And, with multiple checks, when should i call for them? When entering the streets? In the streets? When entering the palace? When moving through the palace? When placing behind the king?
You may tell me that, as DM, I should make judgement calls, but, in my opinion, without basic guidelines, they would be arbitrary calls, and, as DM, I hate being arbitrary (each day i will tend to segment stealth areas more or less depending on my mood, making the success of stealth more dependent in my mood than in pc stats, player decisions and rolls).
I think that the designers created stealth considering that a player could only be stealthy in reduced areas using cover. But with invisibility and/or darkness you can move through large areas in stealth, making that system (for me) very inadecuate.
It does not have to be a single bad roll that ends the whole stealth attempt.
This is a difficult question that comes up from time to time and it usually ends in "Maybe."
If the DM requires too many stealth checks the consequence is the players always fail. Eventually you will roll poorly no matter what modifier. However, if only a single roll is required, then the player might "get away" with pulling off the seemingly impossible. I was in a similar situation not many days ago where my DM required each PC to make a stealth check as we tried to sneak in a little closer to the enemy camp. The Ranger had a great modifier but the Paladin in heavy armor was terrible.
I like the way Matt Colville (watch his Youtube videos called "Running the Game") handles this. When a PC wishes to sneak around the enemy they have to make a stealth roll. If that fails during the attempt, the enemy has to make an investigation or a perception check. And usually there is a third or fourth check before the situation deteriorates into "Roll for Initiative."
There is one specific video I can't locate at the moment that goes through his idea of making a series of rolls to check for sneaking around successfully.
This video is about who should make the roll, the DM or the Player: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dScrFJdcb5s
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thanks for your help Lyxen.
I'm kind of a new breed DM. I started as DM two years ago (I never played as a player) and only directed 5th edition (and one cthulhu game). I listened the complete saga advice part of the podcast.
The assassination of the king was not a problem at all, it was the main quest and he was more like a pretentious local chieftain that called himself king.
My problem was rulling it.
Situation: The streets where full of commoners and guards; inside the king's hall, there were six guards, two veterans and one noble (the king).
The problem appeared when he went invisible, left his house and started walking towards the hall. I asked for one stealth check and he failed it (had less than the guards passive perception) and in that moment i didn't knew what to do. How could I decide where he was detected?
If he was detected the moment he performed the failed roll he would be detected by the first guards and he could easily avoid them and repeat the process until he got a roll good enough to pass the first guards, and once he passed the first guards he would be undetectable because there wasn't any in the city (well more like a small, underground town) with more passive perception.
If, in the other hand, I choose that a failed roll means that he will be detected somewhere else in all the stealth segment, how can I decide where he was detected? I cannot just make that decision by myself because telling him "you have been detected outside the royal hall" means he can just do it again and telling him "you have been detected in the royal hall" means that he is basically dead.
I don't mind killing characters, but, puting a extreme example, if i had to decide if they were teleported inside a pit lava or flowers, I would need to roll a die for that decision, because if I didn't roll i would always lean to the kind option. And yes, in this case is easy to decide with a roll because it's a binary option but in an stealth segment options don't tend to be so simple.
In the end the player just used luck (bullshit) and got a roll good enough to perform his assassination with success, but for a few seconds all that i wrote in this message went through my head while I entered panic. And for the next time I want to be prepared.
I'm not sure if blind rolls is an option when players have the ability of rerolling one check after seing the roll but before hearing the outcome.
Raw is one check. That check stands until stealth is broken (by npc or player)