This is end game content for the Sunless Citadel campaign and clarification for the final boss battle so I wrapped it in spoilers.
If I wrapped too much in the "Spoiler" tags and need more information around the spoilers, please let me know.
Reading the online content, I understand that the Gulthias Tree has converted two NPC's into Thralls. To that effect, how do spells such as Command and Charm Person affect these characters?
Tree Thralls. If a humanoid is bound to the bole of the Gulthias Tree, over the next 24 hours the victim is sucked completely into the tree. Once the victim is completely absorbed into the tree, it becomes the tree’s thrall, and is expelled over the course of 1 hour. The Gulthias Tree can have only four thralls at any one time. A victim’s skin is rough, gray, and bark-like. A thrall is totally corrupted, becoming neutral evil. Such a creature exists only to serve the Gulthias Tree and those who tend it (such as Belak). It possesses all of its former abilities and gains the following traits:
Barkskin. The thrall’s AC can’t be lower than 16.
Tree Thrall. If the Gulthias Tree dies, the thrall dies 24 hours later.
Will they override the Dungeon's grasp on the NPC's since the characters are using PC Magic?
More Specifically:
When the Player Characters encounter Sir Braford and engage in combat, the players want to Command him to drop his weapon, I think this is pretty crafty for a team, but I dont know if this will meet the rules of Command since PC's are in a combat sequence but it is not "directly" harmful to the NPC.
Another Example is when the PC's want to save Sir Braford and Sharwyn Hucrele they want to Charm Person on the thralls as to keep them out of harms way while they do other actions around them.
Questions:
Can Sir Braford be Commanded?
Does Charm Person work since they are Thralls?
Reading around, I saw a rule clarification on Create Thrall and wondered if they are similar which one wins or does the latest spell always override the last spell?
Does the intent to harm Belak or the Gulthias Tree break these NPC's out of charm person?
Thanks in advance for help on getting these cleared up =)
I would rule that they could use Command. I don't think Charm Person would work sense the NPCs are pretty hostile as soon as they pop up, but they are still considered humanoid so I'm not completely sure.
Charm can work, insofar as all it really does is make the thralls look on the players favorably, but doesn’t necessarily mean that they are going to stand aside and let the players harm the tree. that is unreasonable, even if it’s their “friend” doing it. but if they’re wanting to open up with command or charm to get the thralls to stand down, so that they can approach it from a non-combative strategy... I don’t see why not.
A tree thrall "is totally corrupted, becoming neutral evil. Such a creature exists only to serve the Gulthias Tree and those who tend it (such as Belak). It possesses all of its former abilities"
It is still a humanoid and is still a valid target for command and charm person
Command: "You speak a one-word command to a creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or follow the command on its next turn. The spell has no effect if the target is undead, if it doesn't understand your language, or if your command is directly harmful to it."
A command to a creature to drop their weapon should work fine in this case.
Charm: "You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance."
A thrall in this case is also still a humanoid. However, all that happens is that the creature is charmed by the caster. ONLY the caster is affected ... the creature regards the caster as a friendly acquaintance ... not the party or anyone else. In addition, in this case, it would probably be quite appropriate to consider the thrall a part of the Gulthias Tree. They exist only to serve the tree and those who tend it ... so an attack against the tree or those who tend it could count as an attack against the thrall depending on how the DM wants to rule it since "thrall" is not explicitly defined in this case.
Also, the explicit effects of a charm are the following:
"A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
"The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature."
So mechanically the subject of a charm can't attack the caster and if the caster tries to convince them to do something then they would have advantage on the check. However, in this case, the thrall doesn't have any real independent personality. They live to serve the tree and its guardian. As a DM, personally, any attempt to keep a thrall out of a fight by charming them won't work since charm doesn't work that way and especially not in this case.
1) Sir Braford CAN be commanded to drop their weapon.
2) The thrall can be charmed. However, it doesn't accomplish much except prevent the caster from being attacked. I would also rule that attacking the tree or Belak would be the same as attacking the thrall since the entire purpose of their existence is to protect and serve the tree and Belak.
More spoilers ...
The players could attack the tree. It only has 10AC and 35 hit points so should be fairly easy assuming your characters are second level. Killing the tree frees the thralls from the influence of Belak and they turn on him. However, they will also turn on the players.
If your players want to save the thralls they can choose to do non-lethal damage if they reduce it to zero hit points with a melee attack.
By the rules, the thralls die 24 hours after the tree with no intervention possible to save them. I ran the module during the summer solstice and decided that the healing power of the red fruit would be sufficient to restore one thrall (though you could easily decide the fruit could restore both or neither depending on how you want to run it).
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I will explain what unfolded per the campaign my group was playing as many of you alluded to our specific rulings and how we wanted it to play out.
When the Players encountered the Thralls, Belak and the other monsters for this battle, they attempted to Charm Person, but in this case they continued to fight so effectively as DM I ruled that it wasn't effective. (Hostility on Belak and the other monsters).
I allowed the command for Sir Braford to drop his weapon as I also read this as a valid action and the players were being creative in the battlefield.
The way things played out they successfully killed all monsters except the thralls, in this scenario they attempted to Charm Person with only the Thralls and the Tree remaining. This is when it was already late and sounded like a good point in time to end the current session. ( to be continued ... as it was 3am)
It was at this point that I wanted to get some clarity because of the questions I had in the original post as I always appreciate more information and perspectives so I can help rule correctly as a DM.
With the extra information from the community I think I ruled correctly so far, and I appreciate all the feedback and clarifying statements. For the next session I think I can make the final ruling more accurate with the agreement that
Charm Person will work on Sir Braford and Sharwyn creating a "friendly" state for the caster only
So long as the tree is not attacked the Thralls can be "convinced" to not attack the other players. (Charm Person - Comment #14)
*Effectively creating a scenario to end combat.
Alternate ending ... etc
If the Tree is struck again, combat will resume and the thralls will attack all players including the caster
If the tree dies before the thralls they are released, etc
Nonlethal attacks are acceptable to allow players to strategize any alternate scenario resolutions.
@David42 I was thinking the same thing with the fruit, especially since Belak is now dead in my current scenario so they will be able to interact freely I think
Thanks again everyone!
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This is end game content for the Sunless Citadel campaign and clarification for the final boss battle so I wrapped it in spoilers.
If I wrapped too much in the "Spoiler" tags and need more information around the spoilers, please let me know.
Reading the online content, I understand that the Gulthias Tree has converted two NPC's into Thralls. To that effect, how do spells such as Command and Charm Person affect these characters?
Will they override the Dungeon's grasp on the NPC's since the characters are using PC Magic?
More Specifically:
When the Player Characters encounter Sir Braford and engage in combat, the players want to Command him to drop his weapon, I think this is pretty crafty for a team, but I dont know if this will meet the rules of Command since PC's are in a combat sequence but it is not "directly" harmful to the NPC.
Another Example is when the PC's want to save Sir Braford and Sharwyn Hucrele they want to Charm Person on the thralls as to keep them out of harms way while they do other actions around them.
Questions:
Thanks in advance for help on getting these cleared up =)
I would rule that they could use Command. I don't think Charm Person would work sense the NPCs are pretty hostile as soon as they pop up, but they are still considered humanoid so I'm not completely sure.
Hombrew: Way of Wresting, Circle of Sacrifice
Charm can work, insofar as all it really does is make the thralls look on the players favorably, but doesn’t necessarily mean that they are going to stand aside and let the players harm the tree. that is unreasonable, even if it’s their “friend” doing it. but if they’re wanting to open up with command or charm to get the thralls to stand down, so that they can approach it from a non-combative strategy... I don’t see why not.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
A few comments ...
A tree thrall "is totally corrupted, becoming neutral evil. Such a creature exists only to serve the Gulthias Tree and those who tend it (such as Belak). It possesses all of its former abilities"
It is still a humanoid and is still a valid target for command and charm person
Command: "You speak a one-word command to a creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or follow the command on its next turn. The spell has no effect if the target is undead, if it doesn't understand your language, or if your command is directly harmful to it."
A command to a creature to drop their weapon should work fine in this case.
Charm: "You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance."
A thrall in this case is also still a humanoid. However, all that happens is that the creature is charmed by the caster. ONLY the caster is affected ... the creature regards the caster as a friendly acquaintance ... not the party or anyone else. In addition, in this case, it would probably be quite appropriate to consider the thrall a part of the Gulthias Tree. They exist only to serve the tree and those who tend it ... so an attack against the tree or those who tend it could count as an attack against the thrall depending on how the DM wants to rule it since "thrall" is not explicitly defined in this case.
Also, the explicit effects of a charm are the following:
"A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
"The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature."
So mechanically the subject of a charm can't attack the caster and if the caster tries to convince them to do something then they would have advantage on the check. However, in this case, the thrall doesn't have any real independent personality. They live to serve the tree and its guardian. As a DM, personally, any attempt to keep a thrall out of a fight by charming them won't work since charm doesn't work that way and especially not in this case.
1) Sir Braford CAN be commanded to drop their weapon.
2) The thrall can be charmed. However, it doesn't accomplish much except prevent the caster from being attacked. I would also rule that attacking the tree or Belak would be the same as attacking the thrall since the entire purpose of their existence is to protect and serve the tree and Belak.
More spoilers ...
The players could attack the tree. It only has 10AC and 35 hit points so should be fairly easy assuming your characters are second level. Killing the tree frees the thralls from the influence of Belak and they turn on him. However, they will also turn on the players.
If your players want to save the thralls they can choose to do non-lethal damage if they reduce it to zero hit points with a melee attack.
By the rules, the thralls die 24 hours after the tree with no intervention possible to save them. I ran the module during the summer solstice and decided that the healing power of the red fruit would be sufficient to restore one thrall (though you could easily decide the fruit could restore both or neither depending on how you want to run it).
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I will explain what unfolded per the campaign my group was playing as many of you alluded to our specific rulings and how we wanted it to play out.
When the Players encountered the Thralls, Belak and the other monsters for this battle, they attempted to Charm Person, but in this case they continued to fight so effectively as DM I ruled that it wasn't effective. (Hostility on Belak and the other monsters).
I allowed the command for Sir Braford to drop his weapon as I also read this as a valid action and the players were being creative in the battlefield.
The way things played out they successfully killed all monsters except the thralls, in this scenario they attempted to Charm Person with only the Thralls and the Tree remaining. This is when it was already late and sounded like a good point in time to end the current session. ( to be continued ... as it was 3am)
It was at this point that I wanted to get some clarity because of the questions I had in the original post as I always appreciate more information and perspectives so I can help rule correctly as a DM.
With the extra information from the community I think I ruled correctly so far, and I appreciate all the feedback and clarifying statements. For the next session I think I can make the final ruling more accurate with the agreement that
Thanks again everyone!