Precision Attack: When you make a weapon attack roll against a creature, you can expend one superiority die to add it to the roll. You can use this maneuver before or after making the attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied.
What are "Effects of the attack"? The main drive of the question being ... Does the fighter get to know if the attack missed before deciding to use Precision Attack? The way it is written isn't very clear ... as "effects of the attack" could mean damage, conditions, or other things applied when a creature "is hit".
Also, other features like the Lucky feat specify a choice must be made "after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined", which is not specified (but easily could have been) in Precision Attack.
Anecdotally, I think if you don't know the outcome, and spend a precious Superiority Dice to use Precision on a something like a 13 attack roll, it would feel pretty crappy find out later that you had already hit with that 13.
I believe the intent is that you have to use it before knowing if the attack succeeds. From what I've read you can use it after the target uses their Reaction to cast Shield or some other ability to boost their AC, but once a hit or miss is declared, the result stands. It'll be best if you talk with the DM to make sure they don't rush to declare a hit or miss before you have a chance to declare the maneuver. The closest equivalent in my mind is the Bardic Inspiration die, so barring any official ruling I'd say use the Inspiration Die's timing.
Bardic Inspiration is a good reference. But more so because it explicitly says "must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails" ... a similar statement to Lucky's "before the outcome is determined", both of which are pretty clear statements.
I guess I'm just not sure why this is worded less clear. I honestly can't tell what the designer's intent was here.
It's probably worth mentioning here that Jeremy Crawford has made a statement that's sort of adjacent to this question:
Precision Attack can follow the shield spell, as long as the attack's damage and whatnot haven't been applied.
Unfortunately "attack's damage and whatnot" isn't more clearly defined, but my interpretation of this is Crawford saying "You can use Precision Attack right up to when the attack's damage is applied -- which is pretty clearly after it is determined to hit. So with all this information:
JC apparently saying Precision can be applied up until when damage is applied
At least two other abilities (Lucky and Bardic Inspiration) explicitly define their abilities must be used before the outcome is know, where Precision does not
The extreme limit to Superiority Dice, and making them useful and fun (Like being able to roll nearly every other Maneuver adding -- and doubling -- SD to the attack after critting)
And as an addition, burning a Superiority Dice to find out it was totally unneeded is really painful, especially before level 7.
I'm calling that Precision Attack can definitely be used afterknowing the outcome of the attack (hit or miss), giving the Battle Master a chance to literally turn a miss into a hit.
There is, of course, the chance that they still miss -- say, if the Fighter rolls their attack, and the DM says it's a Miss, they can then declare Precision Attack, roll and add their SD to the attack roll and still not reach the AC.
Shield spell specifically states it is a reaction you take after you are hit with an attack or targeted by magic missile. So the caster knows they are hit. So you then know It is a hit as well, or they wouldn’t cast shield. So it would seem that you know before spending the superiority die.
Agreed, i've heard others say you don't get to know whether its Hit or Miss but I would think you do get to know, also
In this tweet Jeremy Crawford says, "Precision Attack can follow the shield spell, as long as the attack's damage and whatnot haven't been applied."
So since Shield is cast after a Hit is declared, and you can apply Precision Attack AFTER they react with Shield, then it stands to reason you can know anytime using Precision Attack whether it was a Hit or Miss i'd say.
I'd allow a Precision Attack maneuver be used after the attack hit is overturned by any effect either giving a bonus to AC or a penalty to the attack roll, ruling that the outcome can still be affected. The only instance where it would have no effect is after spell or feature turning the hit into a miss since the attack outcome is determined already.
The consensus seems to be that you can make the call up until the moment you know whether the attack hits or misses. Consequently, it's one of the things that requires good player/DM coordination.
It does. I didn't mean to suggest that Precision Attack should work exactly like Warding Flare. I saw that a number of effects (e.g. Lucky and Shield) were being discussed here that had also been a part of the Warding Flare thread, and I felt that some of the readers of this thread would find the discussion on that thread relevant.
There are many of these effects with slightly different wording, but the overall intent seems to be that we can break time down into fractions of a second as small as necessary, but we can't go backwards. You can cast Shield in the instant after my blade slips past your guard and you know you're going to be hit. But you have to do it in the instant before you know how many HP the blade cut out of you. Once the damage is rolled, the attack has landed and it's in the unalterable past. I can use a SD after I see that your casting will block my hit but I can't do it after my attack is resolved. "Everyone get their random numbers generated and all the bonuses and penalties applied for the effects they wish to generate? Final answer? Ok. These effects did x and those effects did y. Moving ahead now, all those rolls are in the past and can no longer be changed."
Seems to me that "after you see the roll but before the attack hits or misses" and "before the damage is rolled and whatnot" mean effectively the same thing: "no using your abilities to change the past, so you have to make sure there's good PC-to-DM communication about where and how the precise moment of the present is progressing in the combat timeline".
It's a confusing wording for a maneuver to be sure, but the intent seems to be that the Battle Master fighter is an expert in battle manipulation and trained in doing exactly that.
If a Battle Master fighter goes for a weapon attack with a greatsword against the hardened scaly foreleg of a Young Blue Dragon and at the moment of impact he realizes, "Damn, I didn't apply enough force for this cut to penetrate its hide.", he can swiftly turn the blade downward and shift the moment into a precise thrust towards its claw in an effort to make his strike more effective.
It's specifically an "oh crap" ability for the Battle Master similar to the Shield spell that many magic users utilize.
This is blatantly different from abilities like the Lucky Feat, the War Cleric's Guided Strike, or Bardic Inspiration because those, flavor wise, seem to be things that affect a person as they've decided to make an attack rather than as the attack is progessing. (Though, the flavorful interpretaiton of "Lucky" seems to have some metaphysical implications, the point still stands.)
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Battle Master maneuver Precision Attack:
What are "Effects of the attack"? The main drive of the question being ... Does the fighter get to know if the attack missed before deciding to use Precision Attack? The way it is written isn't very clear ... as "effects of the attack" could mean damage, conditions, or other things applied when a creature "is hit".
Also, other features like the Lucky feat specify a choice must be made "after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined", which is not specified (but easily could have been) in Precision Attack.
Anecdotally, I think if you don't know the outcome, and spend a precious Superiority Dice to use Precision on a something like a 13 attack roll, it would feel pretty crappy find out later that you had already hit with that 13.
The best discussion I could find here was a quick touch on that rule. Some agreed that the player should know the outcome first, but I wanted to see if a larger discussion could be had about this specific Maneuver and its wording. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/58782-luck-feat-vs-battle-master-precision-attack
I believe the intent is that you have to use it before knowing if the attack succeeds. From what I've read you can use it after the target uses their Reaction to cast Shield or some other ability to boost their AC, but once a hit or miss is declared, the result stands. It'll be best if you talk with the DM to make sure they don't rush to declare a hit or miss before you have a chance to declare the maneuver. The closest equivalent in my mind is the Bardic Inspiration die, so barring any official ruling I'd say use the Inspiration Die's timing.
Bardic Inspiration is a good reference. But more so because it explicitly says "must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails" ... a similar statement to Lucky's "before the outcome is determined", both of which are pretty clear statements.
I guess I'm just not sure why this is worded less clear. I honestly can't tell what the designer's intent was here.
It's probably worth mentioning here that Jeremy Crawford has made a statement that's sort of adjacent to this question:
Unfortunately "attack's damage and whatnot" isn't more clearly defined, but my interpretation of this is Crawford saying "You can use Precision Attack right up to when the attack's damage is applied -- which is pretty clearly after it is determined to hit. So with all this information:
I'm calling that Precision Attack can definitely be used after knowing the outcome of the attack (hit or miss), giving the Battle Master a chance to literally turn a miss into a hit.
There is, of course, the chance that they still miss -- say, if the Fighter rolls their attack, and the DM says it's a Miss, they can then declare Precision Attack, roll and add their SD to the attack roll and still not reach the AC.
Shield spell specifically states it is a reaction you take after you are hit with an attack or targeted by magic missile. So the caster knows they are hit. So you then know It is a hit as well, or they wouldn’t cast shield. So it would seem that you know before spending the superiority die.
but definitely check with your DM to make sure.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Agreed, i've heard others say you don't get to know whether its Hit or Miss but I would think you do get to know, also
In this tweet Jeremy Crawford says, "Precision Attack can follow the shield spell, as long as the attack's damage and whatnot haven't been applied."
So since Shield is cast after a Hit is declared, and you can apply Precision Attack AFTER they react with Shield, then it stands to reason you can know anytime using Precision Attack whether it was a Hit or Miss i'd say.
I'd allow a Precision Attack maneuver be used after the attack hit is overturned by any effect either giving a bonus to AC or a penalty to the attack roll, ruling that the outcome can still be affected. The only instance where it would have no effect is after spell or feature turning the hit into a miss since the attack outcome is determined already.
The discussion in @Gilgamesh1973's thread on the Light Domain's Warding Flare ability touches on some of these issues as well.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/cleric/95426-light-cleric-warding-flare
The consensus seems to be that you can make the call up until the moment you know whether the attack hits or misses. Consequently, it's one of the things that requires good player/DM coordination.
The Warding Flare feature specifically works before the attacker before hits or misses.
It does. I didn't mean to suggest that Precision Attack should work exactly like Warding Flare. I saw that a number of effects (e.g. Lucky and Shield) were being discussed here that had also been a part of the Warding Flare thread, and I felt that some of the readers of this thread would find the discussion on that thread relevant.
There are many of these effects with slightly different wording, but the overall intent seems to be that we can break time down into fractions of a second as small as necessary, but we can't go backwards. You can cast Shield in the instant after my blade slips past your guard and you know you're going to be hit. But you have to do it in the instant before you know how many HP the blade cut out of you. Once the damage is rolled, the attack has landed and it's in the unalterable past. I can use a SD after I see that your casting will block my hit but I can't do it after my attack is resolved. "Everyone get their random numbers generated and all the bonuses and penalties applied for the effects they wish to generate? Final answer? Ok. These effects did x and those effects did y. Moving ahead now, all those rolls are in the past and can no longer be changed."
Seems to me that "after you see the roll but before the attack hits or misses" and "before the damage is rolled and whatnot" mean effectively the same thing: "no using your abilities to change the past, so you have to make sure there's good PC-to-DM communication about where and how the precise moment of the present is progressing in the combat timeline".
It's a confusing wording for a maneuver to be sure, but the intent seems to be that the Battle Master fighter is an expert in battle manipulation and trained in doing exactly that.
If a Battle Master fighter goes for a weapon attack with a greatsword against the hardened scaly foreleg of a Young Blue Dragon and at the moment of impact he realizes, "Damn, I didn't apply enough force for this cut to penetrate its hide.", he can swiftly turn the blade downward and shift the moment into a precise thrust towards its claw in an effort to make his strike more effective.
It's specifically an "oh crap" ability for the Battle Master similar to the Shield spell that many magic users utilize.
This is blatantly different from abilities like the Lucky Feat, the War Cleric's Guided Strike, or Bardic Inspiration because those, flavor wise, seem to be things that affect a person as they've decided to make an attack rather than as the attack is progessing. (Though, the flavorful interpretaiton of "Lucky" seems to have some metaphysical implications, the point still stands.)