Hi, I have a quick question. On some FB page I have a discussion about using EB with eldritch spear + SS + distant spell. One guy said it can't be combined, because:
"It's general rules overridden by specific rules." and EB with ES will be always only 300 ft no matter what else you have.
I never read Eldritch spear in this way and never saw another opinion than mine.
You are both right. Eldritch spear is a specific rule which sets the range of eldritch blast to 300 feet. This overrides the general rule which sets the range at 120 feet. The spell sniper feat and distant spell metamagic do not set the range of the spell--they just double whatever the range is.
All together, the range of eldritch blast would be 1200 feet in the example you gave.
Whether he chooses to rule that way in his game is up to him.
On the other hand, it is certainly not the case that three different game features that use the exact wording "when you cast ..." are any more or less specific than each other. They are all written in the form "when X, Y happens," and in a conditional rule like this, the condition tells you exactly when the exception should be applied. Each of these features have conditions that are met when casting eldritch blast, and not in conflict with eachother.
People use "specific beats general" as a rules crutch, they don't often apply it correctly. The general rule in this case is the rule that all spell casters follow: "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range." All three of these features are more specific than that, but not more specific than the other.
The range does effectively jump to 1200 feet... but except in ideal perfectly clear conditions, even in midday, that basically exceeds any character's range of sight. Although I did have an interesting experience in combat once with a Warlock who had ES and SS, as well as a broom of flying... we were battling a dragon and he basically just rocketed off into the sky and rained down Eldritch Blasts. In the first couple rounds there was a risk of the dragon getting tired of his nonsense and chasing after him, but after he cleared enough space it was basically free damage every round.
These all combine; the rule for combining game effects is that, unless the effect is a duplicate (same spell, same effect name, etc), they stack. ES overrides the normal range of EB, and SS and DS are generic modifiers to range with different effect names and requirements (SS needs an attack roll, DS expends a sorcery point). These are all different effects, so they should all stack.
Specific vs General should only be used when an effect or rule for a specific game element is in conflict with a anothergame rule. An example is Eldritch Spear overriding the range of Eldritch Blast (300ft vs 120ft are mutually exclusive ranges thus is a conflict), or the Pact of the Chain familiar attack rule overriding the text of find familiar (can attack vs can't attack are mutually exclusive concepts thus a conflict). SS does not contradict ES as one is a substitution of range and one is a modifier of range; without an inherent conflict in the mechanics (range of 300 ft vs doubling of any stated range is not mutually exclusive), there is no application for specific vs. general to enter the conversation
The range does effectively jump to 1200 feet... but except in ideal perfectly clear conditions, even in midday, that basically exceeds any character's range of sight.
One could use a spyglass ...
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"Semper in faecibus sumus, solum profundum variat" playing since 1986
Hi,
I have a quick question. On some FB page I have a discussion about using EB with eldritch spear + SS + distant spell. One guy said it can't be combined, because:
"It's general rules overridden by specific rules." and EB with ES will be always only 300 ft no matter what else you have.
I never read Eldritch spear in this way and never saw another opinion than mine.
You are both right. Eldritch spear is a specific rule which sets the range of eldritch blast to 300 feet. This overrides the general rule which sets the range at 120 feet. The spell sniper feat and distant spell metamagic do not set the range of the spell--they just double whatever the range is.
All together, the range of eldritch blast would be 1200 feet in the example you gave.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Whether he chooses to rule that way in his game is up to him.
On the other hand, it is certainly not the case that three different game features that use the exact wording "when you cast ..." are any more or less specific than each other. They are all written in the form "when X, Y happens," and in a conditional rule like this, the condition tells you exactly when the exception should be applied. Each of these features have conditions that are met when casting eldritch blast, and not in conflict with eachother.
People use "specific beats general" as a rules crutch, they don't often apply it correctly. The general rule in this case is the rule that all spell casters follow: "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range." All three of these features are more specific than that, but not more specific than the other.
Thanks all for answers
The range does effectively jump to 1200 feet... but except in ideal perfectly clear conditions, even in midday, that basically exceeds any character's range of sight. Although I did have an interesting experience in combat once with a Warlock who had ES and SS, as well as a broom of flying... we were battling a dragon and he basically just rocketed off into the sky and rained down Eldritch Blasts. In the first couple rounds there was a risk of the dragon getting tired of his nonsense and chasing after him, but after he cleared enough space it was basically free damage every round.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
These all combine; the rule for combining game effects is that, unless the effect is a duplicate (same spell, same effect name, etc), they stack. ES overrides the normal range of EB, and SS and DS are generic modifiers to range with different effect names and requirements (SS needs an attack roll, DS expends a sorcery point). These are all different effects, so they should all stack.
Specific vs General should only be used when an effect or rule for a specific game element is in conflict with a anothergame rule. An example is Eldritch Spear overriding the range of Eldritch Blast (300ft vs 120ft are mutually exclusive ranges thus is a conflict), or the Pact of the Chain familiar attack rule overriding the text of find familiar (can attack vs can't attack are mutually exclusive concepts thus a conflict). SS does not contradict ES as one is a substitution of range and one is a modifier of range; without an inherent conflict in the mechanics (range of 300 ft vs doubling of any stated range is not mutually exclusive), there is no application for specific vs. general to enter the conversation
One could use a spyglass ...
playing since 1986
Holy Crap, finally a justification for the 1,000 gp price of a Spyglass!
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Lots of ways to generate money:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/36555-money-making-strategies
playing since 1986