Hi, I have a problem with a player and it gives me a headache. The player is a rogue, he attacks with a crossbow. The problem is that he wants to hide from the enemies when the combat has already started, and by RAW I think he can do it. But I don't know how this work. Is his stealth roll against the passive perception of enemies? Does has disadvantage in stealth because combat has already started? Should the enemies do perception?
Example:
E - Enemy R - a rock P1 - Rogue Player P2 - Fighter Player
(P2)(E) - - - - - (R) (P1) * (P2) fight in melee with (E)
(P) The player hides behind the rock, attacks and hides again. In the second round he repeats the operation.
Hi, I have a problem with a player and it gives me a headache. The player is a rogue, he attacks with a crossbow. The problem is that he wants to hide from the enemies when the combat has already started, and by RAW I think he can do it. But I don't know how this work. Is his stealth roll against the passive perception of enemies? Does has disadvantage in stealth because combat has already started? Should the enemies do perception?
Example:
E - Enemy R - a rock P1 - Rogue Player P2 - Fighter Player
(P2)(E) - - - - - (R) (P1) * (P2) fight in melee with (E)
(P) The player hides behind the rock, attacks and hides again. In the second round he repeats the operation.
Please help. Thank you.
E will have seen where R came from, attacked from, and went to hide themselves again. They may not be able to attack R as he's behind total cover but even though R is invisible and silent E's got a pretty good idea where he is.
So after being attacked once, enemy breaks off from P2, risks the opportunity attack. If they survive they run at the rock, jump over it and attempts to **** the rogue hiding behind.
While true that you can detect a hidden creature using passive perception, it should be noted that in the 'actions in combat' section of the basic rules, there is no mention of using passive perception to detect creatures, only using the search action. Passive perception to detect hidden creatures is typically reserved for things like ambushes and situations where the creatures would not be actively searching (which combat is not).
As for the rest of your points, while they are valid opinions, they don't really help answer the OPs question on how to resolve things per RAW.
If there ain't many Enemy creatures, you could use the Contest check method. Let the enemy's Perception check have a contest against the player's Stealth check. If there are a lot of enemies, use the Passive Perception to save time.
By the way, this is another point for your enemy, if there are other enemies in the area, the rogue cannot attempt to hide if he is in the line of vision of any of them.
Why do you think this is the case?
Hiding behind a rock from some of the enemy is certainly possible, even though other enemy might be able to see you.
Lyxen is correct in this case; to be hidden you have to break line of sight from all hostile creatures for you to be hidden, not to be hidden from them. (Hidden is a state applied to the creature taking the action and thus must be universally true, it's not a state applied to each enemy interacting with the creature).
This can be narratively reconciled by the fact that if you hide from all but one enemy, that one enemy can trivially call out "they're behind the rock"
While true that you can detect a hidden creature using passive perception, it should be noted that in the 'actions in combat' section of the basic rules, there is no mention of using passive perception to detect creatures, only using the search action. Passive perception to detect hidden creatures is typically reserved for things like ambushes and situations where the creatures would not be actively searching (which combat is not).
As per RAW, I don't see a reason to make such a distinction about Passive Perception, for me (and remembering the podcast), it is to be linked to the sentence just above in the RAW: "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
You don't need to "approach" a creature to attack it. That said, attacking from hiding reveals you so your idea of "when I see the rogue I will throw a javelin at them" would work.
As for getting back on topic, the following would not work since a rogue doesn't have enough action economy to do everything in the same turn:
The player hides behind the rock, attacks and hides again.
If combat has started they could use their bonus action to hide and their action to attack but not hide - attack -hide. They could move completely behind cover but that wouldn't make them hidden per se.
While true that you can detect a hidden creature using passive perception, it should be noted that in the 'actions in combat' section of the basic rules, there is no mention of using passive perception to detect creatures, only using the search action. Passive perception to detect hidden creatures is typically reserved for things like ambushes and situations where the creatures would not be actively searching (which combat is not).
As for the rest of your points, while they are valid opinions, they don't really help answer the OPs question on how to resolve things per RAW.
The place that mentions passive perception is the general rules for hiding (in Chapter 7 of the PHB), not “actions in combat.”
RAW is that when you try to hide, you’re not just setting the DC for active search attempts. You also have to beat a DC of the enemies’ passive perception scores or your attempt at hiding simply fails.
Yeah, that's true. I was going off specific (Actions in combat: search to find a hidden creature) beats general (stealth must beat passive to be hidden). This does seem to edge into the "Why can you roll lower than your passive?" discussion which is a whole other topic. I can't find anything specific that rules in favour of either approach, so possibly it's a case of DM call.
Yeah, that's true. I was going off specific (Actions in combat: search to find a hidden creature) beats general (stealth must beat passive to be hidden). This does seem to edge into the "Why can you roll lower than your passive?" discussion which is a whole other topic. I can't find anything specific that rules in favour of either approach, so possibly it's a case of DM call.
I’m not talking about using passive perception to search. It’s not a specific vs. general thing. The two rules aren’t in conflict with each other.
Passive perception is the DC that a hiding character needs to beat to become hidden. That’s an entirely different situation from a character taking the Search action on their turn (for which I personally would not allow passive perception; but consider: even if a DM did, it’s necessarily not enough, since the hidden character was able to successfully hide to begin with).
Lyxen is correct in this case; to be hidden you have to break line of sight from all hostile creatures for you to be hidden, not to be hidden from them. (Hidden is a state applied to the creature taking the action and thus must be universally true, it's not a state applied to each enemy interacting with the creature).
This can be narratively reconciled by the fact that if you hide from all but one enemy, that one enemy can trivially call out "they're behind the rock"
Where do you get the rule that you have to be break line-of-sight from all hostile creatures, not just individual creatures?
Where does state that Hidden is a global state for a PC, rather than a state between a PC and each individual enemy? Especially since the rules say "you can't hide from A creature that can see you"
In other discussions I've seen, you can he hidden from some but not others.
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
I've highlighted the areas that contradict what I thought and do seem to suggest that being hidden is handled on a creature by creature basis; you can be hidden from one but not another.
In a combat, just because an ally is shouting, there's one hiding behind that rock, doesn't mean that the unaware creature nows exactly where the hiding character is. If the unaware creature is fighting another enemy, then instead of attacking the nearby enemy it could use its action to deal with the hiding creature (either by readying an action, or performing a search).
Yep, if you look at my previously reply you'll see I discovered on further inspection of the rules that being hidden appears to apply on a creature by creature basis.
Yep, if you look at my previously reply you'll see I discovered on further inspection of the rules that being hidden appears to apply on a creature by creature basis.
Yes. I added my explanation as a different way of justifying the rules :)
Hi, I have a problem with a player and it gives me a headache. The player is a rogue, he attacks with a crossbow. The problem is that he wants to hide from the enemies when the combat has already started, and by RAW I think he can do it. But I don't know how this work. Is his stealth roll against the passive perception of enemies? Does has disadvantage in stealth because combat has already started? Should the enemies do perception?
Example:
E - Enemy R - a rock P1 - Rogue Player P2 - Fighter Player
(P2)(E) - - - - - (R) (P1) * (P2) fight in melee with (E)
(P) The player hides behind the rock, attacks and hides again. In the second round he repeats the operation.
Please help. Thank you.
This is the Thief's bread and butter, just accept it. But if you have more than one foe, nothing says both foes have to attack P2. E1 and E2 in a shield wall attack P2. Thief attacks E1. Fighter attack E1. ROUND 2. E2 is tired of the Thief moves 30 feet toward Thief. Etc. Play your encounters smart but not too smart.
I didn't see this being address specifically anywhere (I may have just missed it), so I'll mention this much at least:
"Hidden" is not the same thing as "Invisible". If the monster knows where the attacks are coming from and walks to the other side of the rock, he will see the Rogue no matter how high the stealth roll was unless some other factor assists (poor lighting, etc.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi,
I have a problem with a player and it gives me a headache.
The player is a rogue, he attacks with a crossbow. The problem is that he wants to hide from the enemies when the combat has already started, and by RAW I think he can do it. But I don't know how this work. Is his stealth roll against the passive perception of enemies? Does has disadvantage in stealth because combat has already started? Should the enemies do perception?
Example:
E - Enemy
R - a rock
P1 - Rogue Player
P2 - Fighter Player
(P2)(E) - - - - - (R) (P1) * (P2) fight in melee with (E)
(P) The player hides behind the rock, attacks and hides again. In the second round he repeats the operation.
Please help. Thank you.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
E will have seen where R came from, attacked from, and went to hide themselves again. They may not be able to attack R as he's behind total cover but even though R is invisible and silent E's got a pretty good idea where he is.
So after being attacked once, enemy breaks off from P2, risks the opportunity attack. If they survive they run at the rock, jump over it and attempts to **** the rogue hiding behind.
While true that you can detect a hidden creature using passive perception, it should be noted that in the 'actions in combat' section of the basic rules, there is no mention of using passive perception to detect creatures, only using the search action. Passive perception to detect hidden creatures is typically reserved for things like ambushes and situations where the creatures would not be actively searching (which combat is not).
As for the rest of your points, while they are valid opinions, they don't really help answer the OPs question on how to resolve things per RAW.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
If there ain't many Enemy creatures, you could use the Contest check method. Let the enemy's Perception check have a contest against the player's Stealth check. If there are a lot of enemies, use the Passive Perception to save time.
Why do you think this is the case?
Hiding behind a rock from some of the enemy is certainly possible, even though other enemy might be able to see you.
Lyxen is correct in this case; to be hidden you have to break line of sight from all hostile creatures for you to be hidden, not to be hidden from them. (Hidden is a state applied to the creature taking the action and thus must be universally true, it's not a state applied to each enemy interacting with the creature).
This can be narratively reconciled by the fact that if you hide from all but one enemy, that one enemy can trivially call out "they're behind the rock"
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
You don't need to "approach" a creature to attack it. That said, attacking from hiding reveals you so your idea of "when I see the rogue I will throw a javelin at them" would work.
As for getting back on topic, the following would not work since a rogue doesn't have enough action economy to do everything in the same turn:
If combat has started they could use their bonus action to hide and their action to attack but not hide - attack -hide. They could move completely behind cover but that wouldn't make them hidden per se.
The place that mentions passive perception is the general rules for hiding (in Chapter 7 of the PHB), not “actions in combat.”
RAW is that when you try to hide, you’re not just setting the DC for active search attempts. You also have to beat a DC of the enemies’ passive perception scores or your attempt at hiding simply fails.
Yeah, that's true. I was going off specific (Actions in combat: search to find a hidden creature) beats general (stealth must beat passive to be hidden). This does seem to edge into the "Why can you roll lower than your passive?" discussion which is a whole other topic. I can't find anything specific that rules in favour of either approach, so possibly it's a case of DM call.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I’m not talking about using passive perception to search. It’s not a specific vs. general thing. The two rules aren’t in conflict with each other.
Passive perception is the DC that a hiding character needs to beat to become hidden. That’s an entirely different situation from a character taking the Search action on their turn (for which I personally would not allow passive perception; but consider: even if a DM did, it’s necessarily not enough, since the hidden character was able to successfully hide to begin with).
Where do you get the rule that you have to be break line-of-sight from all hostile creatures, not just individual creatures?
Where does state that Hidden is a global state for a PC, rather than a state between a PC and each individual enemy? Especially since the rules say "you can't hide from A creature that can see you"
In other discussions I've seen, you can he hidden from some but not others.
Actually, on further reading I may be incorrect. From the basic rules on Using Ability Scores: Hiding
I've highlighted the areas that contradict what I thought and do seem to suggest that being hidden is handled on a creature by creature basis; you can be hidden from one but not another.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
In a combat, just because an ally is shouting, there's one hiding behind that rock, doesn't mean that the unaware creature nows exactly where the hiding character is. If the unaware creature is fighting another enemy, then instead of attacking the nearby enemy it could use its action to deal with the hiding creature (either by readying an action, or performing a search).
Yep, if you look at my previously reply you'll see I discovered on further inspection of the rules that being hidden appears to apply on a creature by creature basis.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Yes. I added my explanation as a different way of justifying the rules :)
Oh, I'm sorry I completely misread. Yep, that's a solid justification and narratively resolve the rules nicely. I like it!
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
This is the Thief's bread and butter, just accept it. But if you have more than one foe, nothing says both foes have to attack P2. E1 and E2 in a shield wall attack P2. Thief attacks E1. Fighter attack E1. ROUND 2. E2 is tired of the Thief moves 30 feet toward Thief. Etc. Play your encounters smart but not too smart.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
I didn't see this being address specifically anywhere (I may have just missed it), so I'll mention this much at least:
"Hidden" is not the same thing as "Invisible". If the monster knows where the attacks are coming from and walks to the other side of the rock, he will see the Rogue no matter how high the stealth roll was unless some other factor assists (poor lighting, etc.)