Hi, all! New to 5e and mostly DnD in general. A Dungeon Master looking for advice!
One of my players is a Bard with proficiency in Perform and Lute. Her Perform Bonus is +4 (Proficiency / CHA Bonus of +2). In preparation for our next session (First one set in a town!), she intends to entertain the tavern with her musical skills.
Her question is this: Would she need to make a skill check to see how the crowd likes her music? If so, what bonuses would she get to that check?
My question is this: What should the DC of entertaining a crowd be?
(Of note: The idea that she may flat-out fail to entertain is worrying to her, as "Being able to entertain tavern crowds" was a big part of her character and we're both at a loss as to how to emphasize that more on the character sheet).
I believe the ruling would be Performance Check of +4. What would you say?
Thanks!
P.S. I saw another forum that suggested a rule of "+3 Bonus with Advantage given to acknowledge the Lute Proficiency". Would this work? Would this be a good application of Advantage?
Her question is this: Would she need to make a skill check to see how the crowd likes her music? If so, what bonuses would she get to that check?
My question is this: What should the DC of entertaining a crowd be?
In my opinion as a DM, dice should only get involved if the outcome of some action is uncertain. So if you feel her character is certain to entertain the crowd, or you are certain that the crowd isn't into the style of music she plays in her attempt to entertain them, you would just narrate the crowd's reaction without any dice rolling of any sort.
I'm also of the opinion that an outcome being uncertain isn't always enough to justify a roll by itself, a die roll also has to add something important to the story that is going on. So if there isn't really any consequence besides the crowd liking or not liking her performance, no benefit or hindrance to anyone as a result, I still wouldn't roll - I'd just force myself to choose the outcome as if I were already certain of it.
But if something important hangs in the balance (i.e. failing to impress the crowd results in inconvenience to the character/party like getting charged higher than normal prices around town, or impressing the crowd results in getting some tips or other compensation like a free meal or a place to sleep, or more) what check I would call for depends on what exactly is being done. If the character is trying to play some technically complicated piece of music to show their mastery of the lute, I'd probably call for a Dexterity check and grant proficiency bonus for being proficient with the instrument, and if the character is just trying to put on a fun show (and especially if it involves singing while playing the lute) I'd probably call for a Charisma (Performance) check with the lute proficiency not doing anything (I would let it add proficiency bonus to the Charisma check if the character didn''t have performance proficiency, and would probably give the Charisma check disadvantage if the character weren't proficient with the instrument).
According to the previewed table of contents, Xanathar's Guide to Everything seems to spend a little word count on what could be done when a character is proficient in a skill and a tool that are both relevant to a check, so it might be worth taking a look at once it releases next month.
Hi, all! New to 5e and mostly DnD in general. A Dungeon Master looking for advice!
One of my players is a Bard with proficiency in Perform and Lute. Her Perform Bonus is +3 (Jack of All Trades / CHA Bonus of +2). In preparation for our next session (First one set in a town!), she intends to entertain the tavern with her musical skills.
Her question is this: Would she need to make a skill check to see how the crowd likes her music? If so, what bonuses would she get to that check?
My question is this: What should the DC of entertaining a crowd be?
(Of note: The idea that she may flat-out fail to entertain is worrying to her, as "Being able to entertain tavern crowds" was a big part of her character and we're both at a loss as to how to emphasize that more on the character sheet).
I believe the ruling would be Performance Check of +3. What would you say?
Thanks!
P.S. I saw another forum that suggested a rule of "+3 Bonus with Advantage given to acknowledge the Lute Proficiency". Would this work? Would this be a good application of Advantage?
Is she proficient with Performance or not? If she is, then Jack of all Trades does not apply, however her proficiency bonus does, so her modifier is +4
More to the point - my DM makes my bard roll on any performances. Normally gives me two or three rolls for a full set as the performance can improve/deteriorate over time.
As previously stated, +2 CHA is quite low for a bard - was she unlucky with her rolls?
So, regarding that mix-up, I was mistaken when I made her post. She did not have Perform and was using Jack of All Trades. When I edited the post, I did so half-well and it kept a confusing text in it. This thread prompted a conversation where she swapped out one proficiency for Perform. This now brings her total bonus up to 4 (Proficiency + CHA). The edited text now reads properly. My sincere apologies for screwing that up.
I like the idea of rolling for multiple performances. That's a good idea, and I'll keep that in mind!
As for the +2 CHA, what should it be? She very much wanted to be a Water Genasi as she likes the flavor of that character. We used Standard Array when making stats on DnD Beyond. Is there a way to improve her CHA further that I'm missing? If there's a way to link her character sheet for review, I'd be glad to do so!
As for the +2 CHA, what should it be? She very much wanted to be a Water Genasi as she likes the flavor of that character. We used Standard Array when making stats on DnD Beyond. Is there a way to improve her CHA further that I'm missing?
If you're playing a race that gets a bonus to your class' primary ability score, you should have +3. Otherwise, you should have +2. Until 4th level, that is.
Unrelated: I always (always being a relative term, of course, because of coursealways is relative) thought it was a bit odd that no genasi make good sorcerers; sorcerers use Cha as their spellcasting ability, but no genasi get +Cha. The fluff just lines up so well it's like it was meant to be, but the numbers . . . don't.
If there's a way to link her character sheet for review, I'd be glad to do so!
Currently, you copy the web address and only moderators and staff members can see it. They're working on a read-only character sheet.
Hi! How you decide to run the performance is up to you. As another poster mentioned, the outcome may depend on how significant you want the event to be.
Depending on what you and the player are looking for, you might not even roll dice. However, even the best performers have off nights, aren't feeling 100%, caught their finger when they were untacking their horse in the stable .. or maybe they run into a tough crowd, maybe too many of them need to be up for work the next day, or perhaps a friend just left town .. there are lots of reasons for both well received and poorly received performances.
The basic skill check would use the +4 for the characters performance skill (I would assume that would include being proficient with the instrument/know the song well etc.) .. not being proficient with the instrument could increase the DC or might be rolled at disadvantage. I would probably set the DC around 8 (it's just a bunch of tavern patrons so the standards probably aren't that high :)) and then have the degree of success reward a tip from audience members depending on how the roll compared to the DC. It would not be a success/fail but rather a reward that scales up from a couple coppers for a performance that wasn't well received (minimum result is 5) to a few silver coins for a good performance. This way the character receives some feedback. Either way, some folks could come up to chat after the performance .. the better they roll the more folks come up .. but even on a lower result there would still likely be one or two who really like the performance.
For something like a performance, a simple pass/fail result isn't usually the best approach unless there is a specific outcome that is relying on how well the performance goes.
Well you can set a different reaction to her performance depending on the dice rolled. For example simple difficulty might be 5 or 10 since it is easier to effect a tavern compared to a noble or a king. And for each 5 beat the DC the reaction might improve. If her characters selling point is performing for bigger groups anyway the DC might be even lower since we are talking about a character who got prepared for large audience and trained for most of his/her life for it. Is her background entertainer? If so I would drop DC even further (if it is possible or improve reaction of crowd)
By the book, the character can use EITHER Performance or Proficiency (Instrument) if they are making a performance check with the instrument. They cannot combine them, as proficiency rules specify you don't add them together.
Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.
Musical Instrument. If you have proficiency with a given musical instrument, you can add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to play music with the instrument.
Are you using that tool (instrument) while making that Charisma (Performance) check? If yes, you can use your Proficiency bonus.
Keep in mind performance is a VERY broad skill, the instrument is a narrow one. Narratively, using your performance skill for a crowd might mean showboating, getting people amped up, singing and stomping, and reading and working the crowd, where as using your instrument proficiency is more playing a really good version of the song.
I think a DM would be in good standing if you had both Performance AND proficiency to give you advantage on the check. As you could essentially do both and work whichever angle seemed to be working better. But this is just a DM call and is in no way a hard rule.
Based on the new tool rules contained in XgtE, being proficient in a musical instrument, having the performance skill and then presenting a performance using that instrument could allow the performer to roll the performance outcome with Advantage.
Hi, all! New to 5e and mostly DnD in general. A Dungeon Master looking for advice!
One of my players is a Bard with proficiency in Perform and Lute. Her Perform Bonus is +4 (Proficiency / CHA Bonus of +2). In preparation for our next session (First one set in a town!), she intends to entertain the tavern with her musical skills.
(Of note: The idea that she may flat-out fail to entertain is worrying to her, as "Being able to entertain tavern crowds" was a big part of her character and we're both at a loss as to how to emphasize that more on the character sheet).
I believe the ruling would be Performance Check of +4. What would you say?
Thanks!
P.S. I saw another forum that suggested a rule of "+3 Bonus with Advantage given to acknowledge the Lute Proficiency". Would this work? Would this be a good application of Advantage?
This is a very good question. Right up there with, "Why does the bard--whose spellcasting ability is Charisma--only have +1 to Charisma?"
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
My bad. She has a CHA of +2 at Level 2 and +1 from Jack of All Trades. My mistake on the character sheet. What see thee now? :D
In my opinion as a DM, dice should only get involved if the outcome of some action is uncertain. So if you feel her character is certain to entertain the crowd, or you are certain that the crowd isn't into the style of music she plays in her attempt to entertain them, you would just narrate the crowd's reaction without any dice rolling of any sort.
I'm also of the opinion that an outcome being uncertain isn't always enough to justify a roll by itself, a die roll also has to add something important to the story that is going on. So if there isn't really any consequence besides the crowd liking or not liking her performance, no benefit or hindrance to anyone as a result, I still wouldn't roll - I'd just force myself to choose the outcome as if I were already certain of it.
But if something important hangs in the balance (i.e. failing to impress the crowd results in inconvenience to the character/party like getting charged higher than normal prices around town, or impressing the crowd results in getting some tips or other compensation like a free meal or a place to sleep, or more) what check I would call for depends on what exactly is being done. If the character is trying to play some technically complicated piece of music to show their mastery of the lute, I'd probably call for a Dexterity check and grant proficiency bonus for being proficient with the instrument, and if the character is just trying to put on a fun show (and especially if it involves singing while playing the lute) I'd probably call for a Charisma (Performance) check with the lute proficiency not doing anything (I would let it add proficiency bonus to the Charisma check if the character didn''t have performance proficiency, and would probably give the Charisma check disadvantage if the character weren't proficient with the instrument).
According to the previewed table of contents, Xanathar's Guide to Everything seems to spend a little word count on what could be done when a character is proficient in a skill and a tool that are both relevant to a check, so it might be worth taking a look at once it releases next month.
Thank you so much for this wisdom! :D
How to add Tooltips
So, regarding that mix-up, I was mistaken when I made her post. She did not have Perform and was using Jack of All Trades. When I edited the post, I did so half-well and it kept a confusing text in it. This thread prompted a conversation where she swapped out one proficiency for Perform. This now brings her total bonus up to 4 (Proficiency + CHA). The edited text now reads properly. My sincere apologies for screwing that up.
I like the idea of rolling for multiple performances. That's a good idea, and I'll keep that in mind!
As for the +2 CHA, what should it be? She very much wanted to be a Water Genasi as she likes the flavor of that character. We used Standard Array when making stats on DnD Beyond. Is there a way to improve her CHA further that I'm missing? If there's a way to link her character sheet for review, I'd be glad to do so!
If you're playing a race that gets a bonus to your class' primary ability score, you should have +3. Otherwise, you should have +2. Until 4th level, that is.
Unrelated: I always (always being a relative term, of course, because of course always is relative) thought it was a bit odd that no genasi make good sorcerers; sorcerers use Cha as their spellcasting ability, but no genasi get +Cha. The fluff just lines up so well it's like it was meant to be, but the numbers . . . don't.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Hi! How you decide to run the performance is up to you. As another poster mentioned, the outcome may depend on how significant you want the event to be.
Depending on what you and the player are looking for, you might not even roll dice. However, even the best performers have off nights, aren't feeling 100%, caught their finger when they were untacking their horse in the stable .. or maybe they run into a tough crowd, maybe too many of them need to be up for work the next day, or perhaps a friend just left town .. there are lots of reasons for both well received and poorly received performances.
The basic skill check would use the +4 for the characters performance skill (I would assume that would include being proficient with the instrument/know the song well etc.) .. not being proficient with the instrument could increase the DC or might be rolled at disadvantage. I would probably set the DC around 8 (it's just a bunch of tavern patrons so the standards probably aren't that high :)) and then have the degree of success reward a tip from audience members depending on how the roll compared to the DC. It would not be a success/fail but rather a reward that scales up from a couple coppers for a performance that wasn't well received (minimum result is 5) to a few silver coins for a good performance. This way the character receives some feedback. Either way, some folks could come up to chat after the performance .. the better they roll the more folks come up .. but even on a lower result there would still likely be one or two who really like the performance.
For something like a performance, a simple pass/fail result isn't usually the best approach unless there is a specific outcome that is relying on how well the performance goes.
Well you can set a different reaction to her performance depending on the dice rolled. For example simple difficulty might be 5 or 10 since it is easier to effect a tavern compared to a noble or a king. And for each 5 beat the DC the reaction might improve. If her characters selling point is performing for bigger groups anyway the DC might be even lower since we are talking about a character who got prepared for large audience and trained for most of his/her life for it. Is her background entertainer? If so I would drop DC even further (if it is possible or improve reaction of crowd)
Performance vs Proficiency (Instrument)
By the book, the character can use EITHER Performance or Proficiency (Instrument) if they are making a performance check with the instrument. They cannot combine them, as proficiency rules specify you don't add them together.
Are you using that tool (instrument) while making that Charisma (Performance) check? If yes, you can use your Proficiency bonus.
Keep in mind performance is a VERY broad skill, the instrument is a narrow one. Narratively, using your performance skill for a crowd might mean showboating, getting people amped up, singing and stomping, and reading and working the crowd, where as using your instrument proficiency is more playing a really good version of the song.
I think a DM would be in good standing if you had both Performance AND proficiency to give you advantage on the check. As you could essentially do both and work whichever angle seemed to be working better. But this is just a DM call and is in no way a hard rule.
Just a quick update ..
Based on the new tool rules contained in XgtE, being proficient in a musical instrument, having the performance skill and then presenting a performance using that instrument could allow the performer to roll the performance outcome with Advantage.
A happy ending, to be sure! Thank you so much!!!