the following line from tasha's cauldron of everything is the source of interest:
"Additionally, when the sidekick gains a level in this class, you can choose one of the spells it knows from this class and replace it with another spell from its spell list. The new spell must be a cantrip or of a level for which the sidekick has spell slots."
If i understand this correctly, it means that a sidekick can replace cantrips they know with spells of 1st level or higher and replace spells they know of 1st level or higher with cantips, meaning that an 20th level sidekick could end up knowing 15 cantrips yet having no uses for their many spell slots, or vice versa as they slowly replace the spells they learn of one type with spells of the other type as they level up. Like i am not shure if this is really a balance concern but it is an rather interesting quirk of the sidekick that is not replicable with any of the proper classes
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don’t read it like that. I agree the wording is awkward, though.
I think they’re trying to say you can’t swap a level 1 spell for a level 6, unless you can cast level 6 spells. So they can can swap a cantrip for another cantrip.
With leveled spells, for example, if they can cast up to level 3 spells, they could swap magic missle for fireball, but could not swap magic missle for disintegrate.
While the rules does not explicitly forbid swapping out a cantrip for a levelled spell, I do not think it is possible to meaningfully swap out cantrips for levelled spells and vice versa, due to the restrictions on number of known cantrips and spells.
When you level up from 1 to 2 for example, you can swap a cantrip for a spell, but that is no different from just learning a new spell directly, except you also lose a cantrip in the process. However, assuming learning a new cantrip/spell and swapping a cantrip/spell happen simultaneously and that you always learn a cantrip or spell if you are under the limit, since you are under the number of cantrips known, you learn a new cantrip to replace the cantrip you swapped out for a spell, which is effectively the same thing as just learning a new spell directly and swapping out a cantrip for another cantrip.
While the rules does not explicitly forbid swapping out a cantrip for a levelled spell, I do not think it is possible to meaningfully swap out cantrips for levelled spells and vice versa, due to the restrictions on number of known cantrips and spells.
in this instance i think you are overselling how set-in-stone the spells known and cantrip tables are, yes typically the number of spells and cantrips you know will align with the table that will not always be the case, for an common example the "spells known" table for bards include spells learned via magical secrets, despite the fact that the spells learned via magical secrets can be either spells or cantrips, thus an bard of 10th level or higher could easily have fewer spells known than the table assumes and more cantrips than the table assumes. This seems like a bit of a similar situation, the feature allows you to do something that would break the normal cantrip-spell ratio and there does not seem to be an inherent function in the spellcasting feature that would automatically prevent this.
I could of course be wrong, most features that allow more spells or cantrips than normal do make sure to mention that "this does not count against the number of spells/ cantrips you know", but that seems to mostly be there for maximum clarity rather than for mechanical reasons. Like this is probably something an erratra will fix as it is not intended behavior but i do not think the spell/cantrip ratio will be preserved RAW
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
for an common example the "spells known" table for bards include spells learned via magical secrets, despite the fact that the spells learned via magical secrets can be either spells or cantrips, thus an bard of 10th level or higher could easily have fewer spells known than the table assumes and more cantrips than the table assumes.
Except that isn't true. The Magical Secrets spells are restricted by the spells known table:
Magical Secrets [...] The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.
Only the 6th level Lore Bard Magical secrets don't (and explicitly says they don't).
The problem arises because DNDBeyond will let you learn more spells than you should be able to due to technical limitations - but if you do so you would be breaking the rules. A good mantra for DNDBeyond is that just because it will let you do something - doesn't mean it's RAW.
The problem arises because DNDBeyond will let you learn more spells than you should be able to due to technical limitations - but if you do so you would be breaking the rules. A good mantra for DNDBeyond is that just because it will let you do something - doesn't mean it's RAW.
why are you brining up dnd beyond here exactly? yes it is the platform we are on but i have never used it to make a bard or to make a sidekick character?
for an common example the "spells known" table for bards include spells learned via magical secrets, despite the fact that the spells learned via magical secrets can be either spells or cantrips, thus an bard of 10th level or higher could easily have fewer spells known than the table assumes and more cantrips than the table assumes.
Except that isn't true. The Magical Secrets spells are restricted by the spells known table:
Magical Secrets [...] The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.
i want you to please repeat what you think i said/ what my argument was becuase i do not see how that line from the player's handbook is supposed to be evidence against any of my claims, and in fact it is the basis for my argument alongside the second bit of text from magical secrets
[...] A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip.
as in the fact that at each level where you gain magical secrets, the value on the "spells known" column always increases by 2, these are not meant to be two unrelated bard spells you learn at the same time but are rather the very same new bard spells you learn from magical secrets, the spells from magical secrets are included in the Spells known column, like you said. But these spells do not have to be of 1st level or higher but can instead be cantrips as per the text of the class feature itself. Thus while an 10th level bard and most 10th bards in fact know 4 bard cantrips and 14 bard spells as the table assumes, they could just as easily have 6 bard cantrips and 12 bard spells or 5 bard cantrips and 13 bard spells known depending on what spells they learn using magical secrets.
That is my claim, that the spells known and cantrips known columns can differ from the cantrips and spells known by an actiual bard once they have magical secrets, even if the sum of the two will remain the same
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
At level 10 in Bard the number of spells you can learn increases by 2 and cantrips increases by 1. From the Magical Secrets you could learn 2 spells and normally learn 1 cantrip OR you could learn 1 spell and 1 cantrip from Magical Secrets and 1 spell normally. You can't learn 2 cantrips from Magical Secrets because it would put you over the number of cantrips you can know. That was my point.
That is my claim, that the spells known and cantrips known columns can differ from the cantrips and spells known by an actiual bard once they have magical secrets, even if the sum of the two will remain the same
As Emmber said, None of the features discussed here except “Addditional Magical Secrets” allow you to bypass either the cantrips known or spells known column, and AMS only does because it says so. In fact, all of the features that explicitly allow bypassing those numbers would have to say so. It is simply an unfortunate oversight or inconsistency that some features that don’t allow you to bypass those numbers don’t explicitly say so while others do.
the following line from tasha's cauldron of everything is the source of interest:
"Additionally, when the sidekick gains a level in this class, you can choose one of the spells it knows from this class and replace it with another spell from its spell list. The new spell must be a cantrip or of a level for which the sidekick has spell slots."
If i understand this correctly, it means that a sidekick can replace cantrips they know with spells of 1st level or higher and replace spells they know of 1st level or higher with cantips, meaning that an 20th level sidekick could end up knowing 15 cantrips yet having no uses for their many spell slots, or vice versa as they slowly replace the spells they learn of one type with spells of the other type as they level up. Like i am not shure if this is really a balance concern but it is an rather interesting quirk of the sidekick that is not replicable with any of the proper classes
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don’t read it like that. I agree the wording is awkward, though.
I think they’re trying to say you can’t swap a level 1 spell for a level 6, unless you can cast level 6 spells.
So they can can swap a cantrip for another cantrip.
With leveled spells, for example, if they can cast up to level 3 spells, they could swap magic missle for fireball, but could not swap magic missle for disintegrate.
I think Xalthu is right and the wording is just awkward.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I mean, many classes have a switch out feature.
However, you are still limited by your Cantrips known and your Spells known amounts.
While the rules does not explicitly forbid swapping out a cantrip for a levelled spell, I do not think it is possible to meaningfully swap out cantrips for levelled spells and vice versa, due to the restrictions on number of known cantrips and spells.
When you level up from 1 to 2 for example, you can swap a cantrip for a spell, but that is no different from just learning a new spell directly, except you also lose a cantrip in the process. However, assuming learning a new cantrip/spell and swapping a cantrip/spell happen simultaneously and that you always learn a cantrip or spell if you are under the limit, since you are under the number of cantrips known, you learn a new cantrip to replace the cantrip you swapped out for a spell, which is effectively the same thing as just learning a new spell directly and swapping out a cantrip for another cantrip.
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in this instance i think you are overselling how set-in-stone the spells known and cantrip tables are, yes typically the number of spells and cantrips you know will align with the table that will not always be the case, for an common example the "spells known" table for bards include spells learned via magical secrets, despite the fact that the spells learned via magical secrets can be either spells or cantrips, thus an bard of 10th level or higher could easily have fewer spells known than the table assumes and more cantrips than the table assumes. This seems like a bit of a similar situation, the feature allows you to do something that would break the normal cantrip-spell ratio and there does not seem to be an inherent function in the spellcasting feature that would automatically prevent this.
I could of course be wrong, most features that allow more spells or cantrips than normal do make sure to mention that "this does not count against the number of spells/ cantrips you know", but that seems to mostly be there for maximum clarity rather than for mechanical reasons. Like this is probably something an erratra will fix as it is not intended behavior but i do not think the spell/cantrip ratio will be preserved RAW
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Except that isn't true. The Magical Secrets spells are restricted by the spells known table:
Only the 6th level Lore Bard Magical secrets don't (and explicitly says they don't).
The problem arises because DNDBeyond will let you learn more spells than you should be able to due to technical limitations - but if you do so you would be breaking the rules. A good mantra for DNDBeyond is that just because it will let you do something - doesn't mean it's RAW.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
why are you brining up dnd beyond here exactly? yes it is the platform we are on but i have never used it to make a bard or to make a sidekick character?
i want you to please repeat what you think i said/ what my argument was becuase i do not see how that line from the player's handbook is supposed to be evidence against any of my claims, and in fact it is the basis for my argument alongside the second bit of text from magical secrets
as in the fact that at each level where you gain magical secrets, the value on the "spells known" column always increases by 2, these are not meant to be two unrelated bard spells you learn at the same time but are rather the very same new bard spells you learn from magical secrets, the spells from magical secrets are included in the Spells known column, like you said. But these spells do not have to be of 1st level or higher but can instead be cantrips as per the text of the class feature itself. Thus while an 10th level bard and most 10th bards in fact know 4 bard cantrips and 14 bard spells as the table assumes, they could just as easily have 6 bard cantrips and 12 bard spells or 5 bard cantrips and 13 bard spells known depending on what spells they learn using magical secrets.
That is my claim, that the spells known and cantrips known columns can differ from the cantrips and spells known by an actiual bard once they have magical secrets, even if the sum of the two will remain the same
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
At level 10 in Bard the number of spells you can learn increases by 2 and cantrips increases by 1. From the Magical Secrets you could learn 2 spells and normally learn 1 cantrip OR you could learn 1 spell and 1 cantrip from Magical Secrets and 1 spell normally. You can't learn 2 cantrips from Magical Secrets because it would put you over the number of cantrips you can know. That was my point.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Even if this is the case, DMs have pretty much full control over optional rules like sidekicks even strictly RAW.
As Emmber said, None of the features discussed here except “Addditional Magical Secrets” allow you to bypass either the cantrips known or spells known column, and AMS only does because it says so. In fact, all of the features that explicitly allow bypassing those numbers would have to say so. It is simply an unfortunate oversight or inconsistency that some features that don’t allow you to bypass those numbers don’t explicitly say so while others do.