Hi! In one of my campaigns, my party is being hunted by an assassin. One of my players was stabbed in the night, and it brought up a question among my group.
If you are stabbed (Not cut, stabbed) By a dagger (In D&D) would you only take the 1d4 damage listed on the weapon's page? I mean, it seems sort of unlikely that you get stabbed straight in the gut and if you are above level 3 it seems merely a scratch.
Could someone answer this or tell me where in the rules I am missing this.
The rules are an abstraction for gameplay, not a physics simulator. That said,
An assassin is likely to have the Sneak Attack feature, and possible other abilities that will dramatically increase the damage beyond weapon damage (Such as poison).
Also, being asleep counts as unconscious, which means the attack would have had advantage and would have been an automatic critical hit.
So, this assassin(?) would probably have dealt: {1d4 (weapon)+4d6 (Sneak Attack)} [2x Critical Hit] +Dex Mod for an average of around 36 points of damage. Which happens to be more than enough to incapacitate most 3rd level characters. Or closer to half of that, depending on the creature's statblock.
The rules are an abstraction for gameplay, not a physics simulator. That said,
An assassin is likely to have the Sneak Attack feature, and possible other abilities that will dramatically increase the damage beyond weapon damage (Such as poison).
Also, being asleep counts as unconscious, which means the attack would have had advantage and would have been an automatic critical hit.
So, this assassin(?) would probably have dealt: {1d4 (weapon)+4d6 (Sneak Attack)} [2x Critical Hit] +Dex Mod for an average of around 36 points of damage. Which happens to be more than enough to incapacitate most 3rd level characters. Or closer to half of that, depending on the creature's statblock.
Yeah there is a lot of disconnect between the HP game mechanic and real damage/wounds in the rules.
Auto crits on unconscious creatures is good to remember. As a DM you can also just do narrative damage, "you take X damage," done. You want a death "you are dead," done (now this should be for an interesting narrative reason, not just to be a jerk).
Yeah there is a lot of disconnect between the HP game mechanic and real damage/wounds in the rules.
I completely disagree here. It's not a question of "disconnect", it's a question of understanding what D&D is and is not. It's not a simulation of the reality. It is a game made to emulate High Fantasy books and Movies of the genre... [Snip]
Completely disagrees there is a disconnect, then explained the disconnect in its entirety.
So yeah, all that. That is what I was talking about. I know it is a game and not a simulation. That is my point. And I wasn't just talking about the heroes. Killing a strong enemy while they sleep is a valid strategy that just doesn't work if they were too strong.
And if you have to explain why a stab in the heart or slit throat while you're asleep doesn't kill you as "well you woke up just in time," why are there rules for attacking sleeping targets (if they are always going to wake up)?
Yeah there is a lot of disconnect between the HP game mechanic and real damage/wounds in the rules.
I completely disagree here. It's not a question of "disconnect", it's a question of understanding what D&D is and is not. It's not a simulation of the reality. It is a game made to emulate High Fantasy books and Movies of the genre... [Snip]
Completely disagrees there is a disconnect, then explained the disconnect in its entirety.
Uses a word that means something to explain something else entirely. A disconnect between what and what ?
"Game mechanics and real damage" as I said. Then you said it is not real, it is a fantasy game [paraphrased]. So yeah, we completely agree here.
And if you have to explain why a stab in the heart or slit throat while you're asleep doesn't kill you as "well you woke up just in time," why are there rules for attacking sleeping targets (if they are always going to wake up)?
YOu need to learn to read the whole sentences: " because, for some reason, they are awake, or turn away by luck, or they hear the divine voice of their god and suddenly wake up, whatever plot device is necessary to explain"
You can attack a sleeping target but there is a high likelihood that they will wake up anyway. And no, the assassin may intend to slit a throat or stab a heart, that is its declaration of intention. But the end result, once you roll the dice and apply the damage is that the description of what actually happens in the game is something else entirely. Exactly like in combat, you can say "I try to cut him in half with my greataxe", but the result can certainly be a miss, or just a scratch.
I did read the whole sentence including the 2 examples of them not being a sleeping target. That is why I called that out specifically.
They certainly have a high likelihood of waking up from damage, but not in time to avoid the attack. Unless the attacker rolls 2 misses maybe, but if they are not in combat they don't really have any reason to miss and thus no reason to roll and an ex machina can't be expected to happen every single time a 2d4 crit with a dagger doesn't do lethal damage (which will be averaging 10 or less damage usually, so most attempts).
I just wouldn't even make them roll if there is no reason the attack should miss (so after successful stealth checks etc). If it is a boss or creature that could have survived, then it survived but takes a lot of damage. DMs have more than enough freedom to make the narrative make sense and reward (or punish) players and not feel too much like a video game. That is basically their job.
The assassin example is a bad one IMO. There are plenty fantasy novels (among other things) where people die to assassins in their sleep or to poison. The "something's not right" moment feels like it's much rarer.
If anything, usually the "movie physics" gets more leeway - riding the shockwave, not breaking bones when it's likely, not falling unconscious from blood loss etc.
But assassin? If an author needs a scene where there is a silent attacker during the night and the hero needs to survive, I feel like they take the "I wasn't in the bed in the first place" trope.
Andd again, if you play D&D as intended, their job is to tell a high fantasy story where heroes and high level villains do not die in their bed from a single incompetent dagger thrust.
If you take a hero with 100 hp, there is no way, ever, that a 1d4 dagger strike, even critical in their sleep is going to kill them. It's not a question of realism, once more D&D is not meant to be realistic. It's meant to tell a really good story of epic heroes. So this is why you can decide, in your game, that such a dagger thrust kills a hero despite everything, but it will certainly not be supported by RAW and even less by the spirit of the game.
Who said anything about incompetent? A level 20 assassin can't 1 shot a level 15 fighter that is unarmored and asleep even with MAX damage.
Really epic stories often have strong characters dying to sneak attacks. Like all the time. So that is a terrible argument.
And as for RAW, if it isn't combat, it doesn't need to follow combat rules. Which means attack actions and attack damage also aren't being used. As I've been saying, it is perfectly reasonable for DM to just assign narrative damage for narrative events.
The rules are an abstraction for gameplay, not a physics simulator. That said,
An assassin is likely to have the Sneak Attack feature, and possible other abilities that will dramatically increase the damage beyond weapon damage (Such as poison).
Also, being asleep counts as unconscious, which means the attack would have had advantage and would have been an automatic critical hit.
So, this assassin(?) would probably have dealt: {1d4 (weapon)+4d6 (Sneak Attack)} [2x Critical Hit] +Dex Mod for an average of around 36 points of damage. Which happens to be more than enough to incapacitate most 3rd level characters. Or closer to half of that, depending on the creature's statblock.
That assassin just one shot my lv 5 ranger by dealing 67 damage when my DM rolls a natural 20. My ranger goes from 49 full HP to zero. It could instantly kill an lv3 character.
Who said anything about incompetent? A level 20 assassin can't 1 shot a level 15 fighter that is unarmored and asleep even with MAX damage.
That is another story entirely. If the assassin is higher level, he is the hero/villain and yes, in terms of plots, it can go in that direction. But no one in those stories ever dies from a servant to stab him even when sleeping.
My point with this statement was actually that it is impossible to kill someone in one shot (even if helpless) unless you were already so much stronger than them that you could easily beat them normally. Servant or no. Scenes where the hero/villain kills an enemy in a single strike are impossible.
Really epic stories often have strong characters dying to sneak attacks. Like all the time. So that is a terrible argument.
OK, give me examples. Even in the Malazan Book of the Fallen, where there are plenty of magical assassins and guilds, and tons of attempts even by assassin gods, whereas they slaughter secondary characters in droves, none of the major characters actually falls to simple assassination.
The only example I can think of off the top of my head is order 66 in star wars. Dozens (hundreds?) of highly skilled jedi killed by their subordinates suddenly turning on them (obviously not all, but most).
And it is really hard to google assassinations and sneak attacks in fantasy. Partly because the successful ones either happen off screen or the plot focuses on them. I guess "stab, dead" is boring to focus on.
And as for RAW, if it isn't combat, it doesn't need to follow combat rules.
Pray tell, where is that rule ? I would be interested to know where it says that you can do combat actions like attacking out of combat. And where there is a rule that says that you can ignore hit points and death saves when out of combat.
You know what, you might be right. Attacks can't happen out of combat which means you always have to roll initiative first. A bit awkward if you are just trying to break an object, but that is the RAW.
That also means that no real life assassination strategy of approaching with a hidden weapon or as a spy/traitor will ever work because surprise only happens if the attacker is hidden, not the intent. If you can't surprise anyone, there is no guarantee you will even get a chance to attack even if you were standing next to the target when you revealed your intent to attack.
This rests my case. I was hoping that you might remember something from your own viewing / readings, but I have read tons of books (in particular about assassins and guilds, Malazan, Royal Assassin, Way of Shadows, etc.) and seen tons of movies, and what I'm telling you is that there is a reason for D&D Hit Points in particular working the way they do.
Funny you should mention the Night Angel Trilogy.
Didn't Kylar die from a bow/crossbow one-shot? I guess you are allowed to one shot your hero if you have means of bringing him back. I vaguely remember the ka'kari telling him to duck and he didn't and poof, he was gone.
Not strictly assassinations but I remember from Sword of Truth series
Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander one shotting the main villain off screen in a prequel novel and himself getting decapitated without being able to put up a fight in one of the latest.
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Hi!
In one of my campaigns, my party is being hunted by an assassin. One of my players was stabbed in the night, and it brought up a question among my group.
If you are stabbed (Not cut, stabbed) By a dagger (In D&D) would you only take the 1d4 damage listed on the weapon's page? I mean, it seems sort of unlikely that you get stabbed straight in the gut and if you are above level 3 it seems merely a scratch.
Could someone answer this or tell me where in the rules I am missing this.
Thanks a lot.
I Love Gelatinous Cubes
And Gelatinous Humanoids.
I am a full supporter of the LGBTQ+ community.
Black Lives matter
Dont forget your mask!
The rules are an abstraction for gameplay, not a physics simulator. That said,
An assassin is likely to have the Sneak Attack feature, and possible other abilities that will dramatically increase the damage beyond weapon damage (Such as poison).
Also, being asleep counts as unconscious, which means the attack would have had advantage and would have been an automatic critical hit.
So, this assassin(?) would probably have dealt: {1d4 (weapon)+4d6 (Sneak Attack)} [2x Critical Hit] +Dex Mod for an average of around 36 points of damage. Which happens to be more than enough to incapacitate most 3rd level characters. Or closer to half of that, depending on the creature's statblock.
Oh. I didn't think about it like that.
Thanks very much!
I Love Gelatinous Cubes
And Gelatinous Humanoids.
I am a full supporter of the LGBTQ+ community.
Black Lives matter
Dont forget your mask!
Yeah there is a lot of disconnect between the HP game mechanic and real damage/wounds in the rules.
Auto crits on unconscious creatures is good to remember. As a DM you can also just do narrative damage, "you take X damage," done. You want a death "you are dead," done (now this should be for an interesting narrative reason, not just to be a jerk).
Completely disagrees there is a disconnect, then explained the disconnect in its entirety.
So yeah, all that. That is what I was talking about. I know it is a game and not a simulation. That is my point. And I wasn't just talking about the heroes. Killing a strong enemy while they sleep is a valid strategy that just doesn't work if they were too strong.
And if you have to explain why a stab in the heart or slit throat while you're asleep doesn't kill you as "well you woke up just in time," why are there rules for attacking sleeping targets (if they are always going to wake up)?
"Game mechanics and real damage" as I said. Then you said it is not real, it is a fantasy game [paraphrased]. So yeah, we completely agree here.
I did read the whole sentence including the 2 examples of them not being a sleeping target. That is why I called that out specifically.
They certainly have a high likelihood of waking up from damage, but not in time to avoid the attack. Unless the attacker rolls 2 misses maybe, but if they are not in combat they don't really have any reason to miss and thus no reason to roll and an ex machina can't be expected to happen every single time a 2d4 crit with a dagger doesn't do lethal damage (which will be averaging 10 or less damage usually, so most attempts).
I just wouldn't even make them roll if there is no reason the attack should miss (so after successful stealth checks etc). If it is a boss or creature that could have survived, then it survived but takes a lot of damage. DMs have more than enough freedom to make the narrative make sense and reward (or punish) players and not feel too much like a video game. That is basically their job.
The assassin example is a bad one IMO. There are plenty fantasy novels (among other things) where people die to assassins in their sleep or to poison. The "something's not right" moment feels like it's much rarer.
If anything, usually the "movie physics" gets more leeway - riding the shockwave, not breaking bones when it's likely, not falling unconscious from blood loss etc.
But assassin? If an author needs a scene where there is a silent attacker during the night and the hero needs to survive, I feel like they take the "I wasn't in the bed in the first place" trope.
Who said anything about incompetent? A level 20 assassin can't 1 shot a level 15 fighter that is unarmored and asleep even with MAX damage.
Really epic stories often have strong characters dying to sneak attacks. Like all the time. So that is a terrible argument.
And as for RAW, if it isn't combat, it doesn't need to follow combat rules. Which means attack actions and attack damage also aren't being used. As I've been saying, it is perfectly reasonable for DM to just assign narrative damage for narrative events.
That assassin just one shot my lv 5 ranger by dealing 67 damage when my DM rolls a natural 20. My ranger goes from 49 full HP to zero. It could instantly kill an lv3 character.
My point with this statement was actually that it is impossible to kill someone in one shot (even if helpless) unless you were already so much stronger than them that you could easily beat them normally. Servant or no. Scenes where the hero/villain kills an enemy in a single strike are impossible.
And it is really hard to google assassinations and sneak attacks in fantasy. Partly because the successful ones either happen off screen or the plot focuses on them. I guess "stab, dead" is boring to focus on.
You know what, you might be right. Attacks can't happen out of combat which means you always have to roll initiative first. A bit awkward if you are just trying to break an object, but that is the RAW.
That also means that no real life assassination strategy of approaching with a hidden weapon or as a spy/traitor will ever work because surprise only happens if the attacker is hidden, not the intent. If you can't surprise anyone, there is no guarantee you will even get a chance to attack even if you were standing next to the target when you revealed your intent to attack.
Funny you should mention the Night Angel Trilogy.
Didn't Kylar die from a bow/crossbow one-shot? I guess you are allowed to one shot your hero if you have means of bringing him back. I vaguely remember the ka'kari telling him to duck and he didn't and poof, he was gone.
Not strictly assassinations but I remember from Sword of Truth series
Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander one shotting the main villain off screen in a prequel novel and himself getting decapitated without being able to put up a fight in one of the latest.