The rules for wild shape state that a character retains any benefits from their class or race, as long as their new form is physically capable of using it.
Why would you need one? They’re class features, listed on your class progression table and description. An ASI/feat is no less a class feature than Rage.
Why would you need one? They’re class features, listed on your class progression table and description. An ASI/feat is no less a class feature than Rage.
Interestingly, it may be true that ASIs are class features, but ability scores (which are not, and are also affected by ASIs) have specific rules in wildshape: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast..." So, your ASIs only get kept if they are for your mental stats (because your physical stats are replaced by the beasts, including any ASI modifiers to them). That is at least how D&DBeyond treats this rule interaction. It's also the most straightforward reading of "Your game statistics are replaced..."
An ASI isn’t an ability score, it’s a class feature that directs you to improve your ability score by X. Polymorphed, you would lose it. Wild Shaped, you do not.
Also, “statistic” doesn’t mean ability score either (though it includes them). See the MM intro for a detailed break down of precisely what is included in a monster’s “statistics”, which will show you what on a player’s sheet may get overwritten (prior to Wild Shape walking that back and describing types of statistics that are retained, including “class features”).
An ASI directs you to add to your ability score, but your ability score gets replaced by the beast's.
Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to get across with your second paragraph. Since (as you admit) an ability score is a statistic, the rule that covers statistics is the one you'd use for ability scores.
I'm inclined to agree that if your ability score is replaced any improvement to that score is replaced as well. It is like the ruling with band of intellect.
I'm inclined to agree that if your ability score is replaced any improvement to that score is replaced as well. It is like the ruling with band of intellect.
Shrug. I recognize that it isn’t a very simple thing to recordkeep, updating beast stat blocks to reflect your ASI, proficiency bonus, etc. is hard enough to do that I think a lot of people assume you shouldn’t. DDB interface certainly isn’t in any way a rule authority.
The RAW is clear enough to me, and I don’t see any support for letting you keep part of a feats benefit but not another for the +1 stat feats... but do whatever you like.
I get it, JC disagrees, the world follows. He’s wrong, unless Wild Shape gets errata’d to add “...except for class and race and other features which modify your ability scores.” I’m willing to accept there’s a RAI to split the hair between one type feature and the other, but Wild Shape doesn’t do that work RAW without diving between the lines. If Athletics gives me +1 strength, and I get to be an Athletic tiger, then I’m a tiger with +1 strength end of story.
it is simple, your ability scores are replaced by the ones in the statblock of the beast with few exceptions. If your ability score is a 13 because you have a 12 and the athlete feat, but that gets replaced with a 17, then it is 17... because your 13 is replaced by a 17.
I get it, JC disagrees, the world follows. He’s wrong
This is not the way D&D is meant to be played. All rules are suggestions and what is or is not allowed is solely up to the discretion of the DM. Jeremy is also THE rule designer for D&D 5e, meaning if he says the rules are meant as such and you disagree, you are the one wrong. He says that the physical stats are replaced entirely by the beast form taken, then the beast form does not benefit from any additions to your base score that deal with the body (Str, Dex, Con) though you still benefit from the actions given by the feat, such as Athlete to stand up using only 5 ft of movement. Simply, the case is close, JC has spoken, long may he reign.
You have to understand that some things that come up when you gain a level allow you to make a change to your character sheet and others allow you to do something new at any time. It is definitely a hot take that an ASI can be applied at anytime (or is being applied continuously) rather than a change that you make to your character specifically when you gain a level.
If you were level drained, would you expect to keep them? I don’t see how writing “Tavern Brawler, improvised weapon prof., 1d4 DMG, +1 Str” on my character sheet leads to the conclusion that some of that is “continuous” while other parts are over and done with. How about Tough, y’all taking the same bad position on that?
As it sounds.
Can one barbarian rage and wildshape at the same time?
The rules for wild shape state that a character retains any benefits from their class or race, as long as their new form is physically capable of using it.
Yes. You also still have your unarmored defense if that matters, and basically all your other class features.
Give new meaning to bearbarian.
You also keep feats, and ASI (but ASI won't provide any increase over 20 in an ability score, even if your beast exceeds that cap).
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Is there a link to the ruling about Beast Forms getting ASI benefits?
Why would you need one? They’re class features, listed on your class progression table and description. An ASI/feat is no less a class feature than Rage.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Because a link validates speculation. RAW are important and if there's evidence that this is true then we're better off for it.
Interestingly, it may be true that ASIs are class features, but ability scores (which are not, and are also affected by ASIs) have specific rules in wildshape: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast..." So, your ASIs only get kept if they are for your mental stats (because your physical stats are replaced by the beasts, including any ASI modifiers to them). That is at least how D&DBeyond treats this rule interaction. It's also the most straightforward reading of "Your game statistics are replaced..."
An ASI isn’t an ability score, it’s a class feature that directs you to improve your ability score by X. Polymorphed, you would lose it. Wild Shaped, you do not.
Also, “statistic” doesn’t mean ability score either (though it includes them). See the MM intro for a detailed break down of precisely what is included in a monster’s “statistics”, which will show you what on a player’s sheet may get overwritten (prior to Wild Shape walking that back and describing types of statistics that are retained, including “class features”).
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
An ASI directs you to add to your ability score, but your ability score gets replaced by the beast's.
Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to get across with your second paragraph. Since (as you admit) an ability score is a statistic, the rule that covers statistics is the one you'd use for ability scores.
I'm inclined to agree that if your ability score is replaced any improvement to that score is replaced as well. It is like the ruling with band of intellect.
And, again, apparently so is DDB.
Shrug. I recognize that it isn’t a very simple thing to recordkeep, updating beast stat blocks to reflect your ASI, proficiency bonus, etc. is hard enough to do that I think a lot of people assume you shouldn’t. DDB interface certainly isn’t in any way a rule authority.
The RAW is clear enough to me, and I don’t see any support for letting you keep part of a feats benefit but not another for the +1 stat feats... but do whatever you like.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/09/08/do-attribute-increases-or-feats-that-effect-physical-stats-carryover-to-druid-wildshape-as-class-feautures/
Well, someone else reads it that your physical ability scores are replaced as well. (It is, after all, what the text says to do...)
I get it, JC disagrees, the world follows. He’s wrong, unless Wild Shape gets errata’d to add “...except for class and race and other features which modify your ability scores.” I’m willing to accept there’s a RAI to split the hair between one type feature and the other, but Wild Shape doesn’t do that work RAW without diving between the lines. If Athletics gives me +1 strength, and I get to be an Athletic tiger, then I’m a tiger with +1 strength end of story.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
it is simple, your ability scores are replaced by the ones in the statblock of the beast with few exceptions. If your ability score is a 13 because you have a 12 and the athlete feat, but that gets replaced with a 17, then it is 17... because your 13 is replaced by a 17.
This is not the way D&D is meant to be played. All rules are suggestions and what is or is not allowed is solely up to the discretion of the DM. Jeremy is also THE rule designer for D&D 5e, meaning if he says the rules are meant as such and you disagree, you are the one wrong. He says that the physical stats are replaced entirely by the beast form taken, then the beast form does not benefit from any additions to your base score that deal with the body (Str, Dex, Con) though you still benefit from the actions given by the feat, such as Athlete to stand up using only 5 ft of movement. Simply, the case is close, JC has spoken, long may he reign.
ASIs applying in wild shape has come up before. Chicken champ is definitely taking a minority position here.
You have to understand that some things that come up when you gain a level allow you to make a change to your character sheet and others allow you to do something new at any time. It is definitely a hot take that an ASI can be applied at anytime (or is being applied continuously) rather than a change that you make to your character specifically when you gain a level.
If you were level drained, would you expect to keep them? I don’t see how writing “Tavern Brawler, improvised weapon prof., 1d4 DMG, +1 Str” on my character sheet leads to the conclusion that some of that is “continuous” while other parts are over and done with. How about Tough, y’all taking the same bad position on that?
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.