Hello everyone :D I'm a dungeon master who's basically running out of the Abyss. And so I've been learning the lore of the Abyss more and more in depth. I learnt what being the Prince of Demons actually entails, and that it allows Demogorgon to control demons around him. However, in the 5e stat block, he doesn't have this, and he's CR 26, same as Orcus. Given my new understanding of the title of Prince of Demons, I wondered two things. Why isn't Demogorgon more powerful? And why doesn't he just control a huge army of demons and take more of the Abyss? I have considered the possibility of him not wanting to risk leaving his domain (eg to protect his demonic talisman), however in Out of the Abyss he is forced to leave anyway, and there are still many entities still in the Abyss (eg Lolth, Laogzed, and succubi). So if Demogorgon can't leave his domain for security reasons, what could Lolth do with Demogorgon's absence and what does this entail for the material plane and blood war (war between devils and demons). If Demogorgon can leave his domain safely, then why doesn't he take over more of the Abyss?
Secondly, Lolth is a goddess. And that makes her absurdly powerful. In Out of the Abyss, the campaign is basically set into motion by Lolth's scheme to take over the Abyss. But as a goddess, why can't she just take it over? Obviously there is plenty to gain from becoming the Prince (or Princess/Queen) of Demons, as you can control a ton of demons around you. I have considered the possibility of people (and maybe gods) like Mordekainen wanting preserve the great balance (maintain the war between devils and demons) who would want to keep Lolth from doing that, but if that is the case then there is little point to Lolth's scheme in Out of the Abyss.
Thank you in advance for your answers. :) Have a nice day.
I'm no expert in the matter, but I do know that Demon Lords have sort of a symbiotic relationship with their layer of the Abyss. To an extent, they're one and the same entity. That makes it extremely difficult for one Demon Lord to wrestle control over another one's layer from that other Demon Lord, and the same goes for deities who despite their personal power simply don't have that connection with and control over a part of the Abyss.
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Their not strong enough, the lower your region / farther down you are in the abyss, the weaker you get, the Shard of Eternal Evil is constantly producing stronger monster in the Abyss due to the Obyrith (Ancient Demons) and the Queen of Chaos are both still alive meaning LLoth can't become the Queen of Demons, just that they can't grasp any control of the Shard of Eternal Evil. Second It has something to do with Tharizdun I forgot what it has to do with him but I remember that he is fueled by the shard of eternal evil. Secondly the Blood War is still on going Meaning the Tanari Demons and Abyss Fiends are fighting a war against each other. Remember there are bigger monsters in the Abyss, bigger then the Tarrasque, we are talking CR 50 Titans. Demogorgon from what I know is the discarded first Tanari Demon by the Queen of Chaos maybe it has something to do with Demons revering him rather than being under his control. Also A fragment of Obon - Ob is still alive so all in all both are being suppressed.The Queen of Chaos is trying to free her prince, Obon - Ob is in hiding and the rest of the Obyrith, Demogorgon has a lot of Stronger Monsters to deal with.
Also on top of that, Lolth isn't even the only god in the abyss. There are also Umberlee, Garyx and Apep. (Off the top of my head, there might be even more)
Plus weakening the existing structure to much is also not ideal, as a weakened Abyss will only be an invitation for the Nine Hells to invade.
(Thanks for that, Wizards of the Coast, Ryan Miller, and Adam Phillips. It's your fault for trying to hype of 4th edition. I can't take that Demon Prince of Chaos seriously anymore.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Demons are not like devils. They are not organized and do not form hierarchies. They're Chaotic (with a capitol C) and I don't think such a being is even capable of taking over a place like the Abyss, even with their influence over other demons.
I like to think that even if Demogorgan got his sh*t together and gave an honest stab at ruling the Abyss, the chaotic nature of demons would probably cause the new regime to crumble into infighting before long anyways.
Demons are just anathema to the kind of order required to be a total ruler.
Yeah, I think demon and demon lords don't have "dominate" the Abyss as motivation, it's more "spread the abyss" through planar incursion and absorbing worlds into the Abyss. Mord's Tome of Foes gives a pretty good account of how Abyssal incursions work in the Prime Material and other planes. Note, it's note described as a military/political power conquest. Rather it's more like a pathogenic infection that sort of spreads virally within its new host.
In other words, the desire of a demon is not to dwell on demon navel gazing internal conflicts, but to spread the Abyss further. For me, even the more intelligent demons, I play them more as a logic of consumption than a logic of establishment. And as others have pointing to the structure of the Abyss making all but the most minor clashes somewhat counter productive, demonic energy tends to flow outward spreading maniacal entropy rather than shorting itself internally. It's not even so much a "strategy" as it is a compulsion.
Thank you for your assistance. From what I've gathered here so far, I've come to the following conclusions:
1. Demogorgon knows that he can't take over the Abyss anyway. While he is absent on a layer it will no longer be under his control anyway, so there is little point. 2. Lair actions and regional effects are pretty strong, so its particularly hard to fight on another demon lord's turf. This may be why Lolth can't brute force control some other layers and has started the demonic incursion.
However there is a particular line in the comments that confuses me. "... the Obyrith (Ancient Demons) and the Queen of Chaos are both still alive meaning LLoth can't become the Queen of Demons, just that they can't grasp any control of the Shard of Eternal Evil." Is this saying Lolth has something to do with preventing the Queen of Chaos and other Obyrith from getting the Shard of Eternal Evil? And if Lolth taking over some layers is not ideal, then why is she trying to do this? Given her ridiculously high intelligence stat?
Actually Lolth was a goddess first - she was Correllon’s first wife but tried to get ther son and daughter (Vhaeraun and Eistrelliee) to assassinate him. When he avoided that she was banished to the abyss becoming a Tannari. She has her own compulsion to rule everyone so even if it doesn’t fit the model of the other tannari lords she would try to gain control of all of the abyss, impossible as it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Hello everyone :D
I'm a dungeon master who's basically running out of the Abyss. And so I've been learning the lore of the Abyss more and more in depth. I learnt what being the Prince of Demons actually entails, and that it allows Demogorgon to control demons around him. However, in the 5e stat block, he doesn't have this, and he's CR 26, same as Orcus. Given my new understanding of the title of Prince of Demons, I wondered two things. Why isn't Demogorgon more powerful? And why doesn't he just control a huge army of demons and take more of the Abyss? I have considered the possibility of him not wanting to risk leaving his domain (eg to protect his demonic talisman), however in Out of the Abyss he is forced to leave anyway, and there are still many entities still in the Abyss (eg Lolth, Laogzed, and succubi). So if Demogorgon can't leave his domain for security reasons, what could Lolth do with Demogorgon's absence and what does this entail for the material plane and blood war (war between devils and demons). If Demogorgon can leave his domain safely, then why doesn't he take over more of the Abyss?
Secondly, Lolth is a goddess. And that makes her absurdly powerful. In Out of the Abyss, the campaign is basically set into motion by Lolth's scheme to take over the Abyss. But as a goddess, why can't she just take it over? Obviously there is plenty to gain from becoming the Prince (or Princess/Queen) of Demons, as you can control a ton of demons around you. I have considered the possibility of people (and maybe gods) like Mordekainen wanting preserve the great balance (maintain the war between devils and demons) who would want to keep Lolth from doing that, but if that is the case then there is little point to Lolth's scheme in Out of the Abyss.
Thank you in advance for your answers. :)
Have a nice day.
I'm no expert in the matter, but I do know that Demon Lords have sort of a symbiotic relationship with their layer of the Abyss. To an extent, they're one and the same entity. That makes it extremely difficult for one Demon Lord to wrestle control over another one's layer from that other Demon Lord, and the same goes for deities who despite their personal power simply don't have that connection with and control over a part of the Abyss.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Their not strong enough, the lower your region / farther down you are in the abyss, the weaker you get, the Shard of Eternal Evil is constantly producing stronger monster in the Abyss due to the Obyrith (Ancient Demons) and the Queen of Chaos are both still alive meaning LLoth can't become the Queen of Demons, just that they can't grasp any control of the Shard of Eternal Evil. Second It has something to do with Tharizdun I forgot what it has to do with him but I remember that he is fueled by the shard of eternal evil. Secondly the Blood War is still on going Meaning the Tanari Demons and Abyss Fiends are fighting a war against each other. Remember there are bigger monsters in the Abyss, bigger then the Tarrasque, we are talking CR 50 Titans. Demogorgon from what I know is the discarded first Tanari Demon by the Queen of Chaos maybe it has something to do with Demons revering him rather than being under his control. Also A fragment of Obon - Ob is still alive so all in all both are being suppressed.The Queen of Chaos is trying to free her prince, Obon - Ob is in hiding and the rest of the Obyrith, Demogorgon has a lot of Stronger Monsters to deal with.
Also on top of that, Lolth isn't even the only god in the abyss. There are also Umberlee, Garyx and Apep. (Off the top of my head, there might be even more)
Plus weakening the existing structure to much is also not ideal, as a weakened Abyss will only be an invitation for the Nine Hells to invade.
I am also here.
Am snek.
Every time I see that name, I can't not think of anything other than Demogorgon has monkey heads.
(Thanks for that, Wizards of the Coast, Ryan Miller, and Adam Phillips. It's your fault for trying to hype of 4th edition. I can't take that Demon Prince of Chaos seriously anymore.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Demons are not like devils. They are not organized and do not form hierarchies. They're Chaotic (with a capitol C) and I don't think such a being is even capable of taking over a place like the Abyss, even with their influence over other demons.
I like to think that even if Demogorgan got his sh*t together and gave an honest stab at ruling the Abyss, the chaotic nature of demons would probably cause the new regime to crumble into infighting before long anyways.
Demons are just anathema to the kind of order required to be a total ruler.
Yeah, I think demon and demon lords don't have "dominate" the Abyss as motivation, it's more "spread the abyss" through planar incursion and absorbing worlds into the Abyss. Mord's Tome of Foes gives a pretty good account of how Abyssal incursions work in the Prime Material and other planes. Note, it's note described as a military/political power conquest. Rather it's more like a pathogenic infection that sort of spreads virally within its new host.
In other words, the desire of a demon is not to dwell on demon navel gazing internal conflicts, but to spread the Abyss further. For me, even the more intelligent demons, I play them more as a logic of consumption than a logic of establishment. And as others have pointing to the structure of the Abyss making all but the most minor clashes somewhat counter productive, demonic energy tends to flow outward spreading maniacal entropy rather than shorting itself internally. It's not even so much a "strategy" as it is a compulsion.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thank you for your assistance. From what I've gathered here so far, I've come to the following conclusions:
1. Demogorgon knows that he can't take over the Abyss anyway. While he is absent on a layer it will no longer be under his control anyway, so there is little point.
2. Lair actions and regional effects are pretty strong, so its particularly hard to fight on another demon lord's turf. This may be why Lolth can't brute force control some other layers and has started the demonic incursion.
However there is a particular line in the comments that confuses me.
"... the Obyrith (Ancient Demons) and the Queen of Chaos are both still alive meaning LLoth can't become the Queen of Demons, just that they can't grasp any control of the Shard of Eternal Evil."
Is this saying Lolth has something to do with preventing the Queen of Chaos and other Obyrith from getting the Shard of Eternal Evil?
And if Lolth taking over some layers is not ideal, then why is she trying to do this? Given her ridiculously high intelligence stat?
Thank you again for your assistance. :)
Actually Lolth was a goddess first - she was Correllon’s first wife but tried to get ther son and daughter (Vhaeraun and Eistrelliee) to assassinate him. When he avoided that she was banished to the abyss becoming a Tannari. She has her own compulsion to rule everyone so even if it doesn’t fit the model of the other tannari lords she would try to gain control of all of the abyss, impossible as it is.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.