I just don't believe we can possibly anticipate what that world would look like no matter how hard we break our heads over it.
That said, the most important perspective, I believe, is this: It's a game.
... I definitely think it's valuable to consider how magic has affected society when you're building cities and such, especially when they are wealthy and powerful, but ultimately it's just another detail of hundreds to consider and, like many of those details, it can be taken too far.
So, by all means, it's a topic worthy of discussion. But, as an old boss of mine used to be fond of saying, "Let's not get wrapped around the axle."
I'm grateful to read a dissonant voice, but I'm not sure where you might actually draw this line in the sand.
...my players want a relatable, recognizable pseudo-medieval society with all those "problems" firmly in place.
I find this urge problematic in that it doesn't always allow the setting to sound plausible, making it tough to sometimes suspend disbelief, which I need in the game to... well, to play it. Having said that, I agree that familiar fantasy tropes are necessary for immediacy of immersion. Although I love Dark Sun, it was problematic that they recast traditional races in dramatically different ways, because everyone knew, more or less, what an elf was before then, and then suddenly the sky was green, in the sense that it broke with strong traditions.
This thread is super interesting. I may steal a lot of this stuff for the Lord's Alliance "playbook" in the FR campaign I'm running right now. I may even use Nazim and Bricing as important LA NPCs. Thanks all.
Dwarf were-wolf, if possible. Or a dwarf with a wolf crest or something. 👍
This is a relatively common topic of discussion in FRPG circles and the debate goes back and forth on just how much the availability of magic affects a pseudo-medieval society. I tend to believe that, just as technology has rendered most parts of the world unrecognizable in a span so small as 100 years, the pervasive availability of minor magic (going with the 1% number for casters, a medium town of 10,000 will have 100 of them) would have sweeping effects on society. But, just as no one in 1917 could even really conceive of what the world would look like in 2017, I think it's rather academic to argue what the world would and could look like with the pervasive influence of magic, minor and otherwise. I just don't believe we can possibly anticipate what that world would look like no matter how hard we break our heads over it.
That said, the most important perspective, I believe, is this: It's a game.
It's a game that's already full of anachronisms, silly stereotypes, and defiance of natural physics. That's not a problem - that's the beauty of the whole thing.
While I love to throw in the occasional "NPC hacking life in a clever, magical way" moment, my players want a relatable, recognizable pseudo-medieval society with all those "problems" firmly in place. I definitely think it's valuable to consider how magic has affected society when you're building cities and such, especially when they are wealthy and powerful, but ultimately it's just another detail of hundreds to consider and, like many of those details, it can be taken too far.
So, by all means, it's a topic worthy of discussion. But, as an old boss of mine used to be fond of saying, "Let's not get wrapped around the axle."
:)
FOr my group it's the opposite. Non of us care about simulating medieval Europe, or Tolkien, or whatever. We want fantasy worlds that make some sense, and surprise us with new elements.
FOr my group it's the opposite. Non of us care about simulating medieval Europe, or Tolkien, or whatever. We want fantasy worlds that make some sense, and surprise us with new elements.
I never said the world doesn't need to make sense. I just said it's a game, it's impossible to simulate a true, full world, and that it's a topic one must just keep in mind and move on... Lots of debate on the specifics is fruitless.
Everybody wants a world that is familiar. It's human nature. If it's not familiar, you've got no reference points on which to attach emotion and motivation.
...my players want a relatable, recognizable pseudo-medieval society with all those "problems" firmly in place.
I find this urge problematic in that it doesn't always allow the setting to sound plausible, making it tough to sometimes suspend disbelief, which I need in the game to... well, to play it.
Well, then start by getting rid of the Monk class entirely. It's based on an absurd stereotype that never truly existed and doesn't make much sense. Also axe (so to speak) most of the weapons from the game and re-introduce only those that truly suit the period and societal influences of the world and area in question. In the end, you'll end up re-inventing a bulk of the 5E rules set in order to cleanly confine to a realistic setting - because it's designed with all those classic fantasy elements at its core.
I never said to run around willy-nilly and forego awareness on the suspension of disbelief. If you re-read my OP, I think you'll find I advocate constant attention to consistency and sensible detail. But if there's one thing I've become certain of over 30 years of playing, DM'ing, and game design, it's that we have to keep perspective on the fact it is, in the end, a game and there are elements far more important to the fun of the game than how (pseudo-)realistic it seems.
I mean, in the end, a person's gotta structure their world and their game to best suit themselves and their group. As I said already, I think some thought as to how magic affects society is a very good thing. But if you're focusing too distinctly on any one element, your game is going to suffer.
That's why 5E exists... Throughout the late 80's and 90's, and then bleeding over into 3E / d20, the big push in FRPG's was to make the game feel more realistic (give Rolemaster a shot if you haven't already). They found out the hard way that wasn't the best approach to making a solid, playable FRPG that strikes the proper balance of sensible, logical, and keeps the rhythm of gameplay where it needs to be.
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PBP "Beregost Blues" - Dungeon Master of Gnome Slaying +5
What about the life spans and birth rates of the races? Think about how many elves there would be if their birthrates are any thing like human birthrates... over the course of 700 years.
What about the life spans and birth rates of the races? Think about how many elves there would be if their birthrates are any thing like human birthrates... over the course of 700 years.
Great point! Eberron has some interesting ideas of how to deal with this, but they don't work for all worlds.
What impact does the availability of Alchemists Fire, and Healing Potions, have on the world?
That's a great question. It really depends a lot on how DMs rule on the requirements for magic item creation. Otherwise, the time and resources to make magic items seems similar to mundane items, so it has the potential to have a lot of impact. I haven't really looked at 4e magic items, though. I imagine it won't be like 3.x/PF where magic items were super-abundant, and a wand of Cure Wounds would be the most common way of casting the spell. But it would make wands of Message the equivalent of walkie-talkies, improving law enforcement dramatically, giving cause to raise towers every 240 feet to receive and relay such messages...
I'm more interested in the sorts of things you see in Eberron. Magic items that aren't attractive to adventurers, but make a difference to the every day world.
Take all those spells we've talked about, and imagine being able to spend a few months making them into a permanent item. Hell, if you can spend a year's work making a plow that enriches the soil it plows, or a tuning fork that lets a person redirect water, or move, or mold, earth, or create a campfire size fire that lasts as long as you like, they would be worth the cost. But using 5e's crafting rules, it wouldn't take a year, because those are all very low level, and would thus be uncommon at the worst. So we are talking months, at most, assuming no help.
Even if we assume you have to be able to use magic of the same level to use the item, that means the one guy who can cast 1st level spells of any kind can use all of those items.
I honestly don't think wands of message would be make it worthwhile to build that many towers, but enchantments built into the tower might, not really for law enforcement, but for defense, coordinating public works, sending messages more quickly than you can by horse, etc.
The First Persian Empire had well maintained roads with hostels and messenger posts no more than 1 day ride apart. I'd see the same thing in a world with low level magic items as discussed.
With hearths that can burn without fuel, pots that purify their own water, and wands of mending for fix anything that breaks.
There really isn't any way such a world could ever develop, much less maintain, the gross distopia that was "dark ages" Europe.
I'm more interested in the sorts of things you see in Eberron. Magic items that aren't attractive to adventurers, but make a difference to the every day world.
That is an interesting notion. I imagine that only relatively common magic items would make this list. The only ones under the ruleset that are available at the moment are the Potion of Climbing, the Potion of Healing, and first and cantrip level Spell Scrolls. Potions of Healing would certainly have an impact. Cantrips and first level spells, even on scrolls, we've covered. I'm not sure how much impact Potions of Climbing will have.
If we look at uncommon items, however, the options expand quite a bit. Just the Broom of Flying or the Winged Boots would dramatically change the world. The Decanter of Endless Water certainly would have the impact described in earlier posts. If items like this were available in most cities, it would certainly lead to an Eberron- or Faerun-like (believe or not, magic items are very abundant in Faerun as well) world. But I think that many campaigns would consider this to be a bit extreme.
I think the new crafting rules, and maybe the DMG rules, allow for spells to be enchanted into objects, so I don't see why the list of items would be especially limited.
Also, the DMG is focused on things player characters will use.
Hey, been lurking for a few days now and just been thinking about who would use and pay for such services.
Skilled workers get around 2GP/day, 10GP/week or 520GP/year (5 day workweek) Unskilled workers get around 2SP/day, 1Gp/week or 52GP/year
So unskilled hirelings who live in poor to squalid conditions might be able to save 16GP/year. Skilled Hirelings on the other hand can have a modest lifestyle and save around 160GP/year. A healing potion costs 50GP, or 5 weeks wages for a skilled hireling, and almost unaffordable for unskilled.
Hiring someone to cast a relatively common spell of 1st or 2nd level, such as cure wounds or identify, is easy enough in a city or town, and might cost 10(1st level) to 50(2nd Level) gold pieces (plus the cost of any expensive material components). Maybe someone would cast a cantrip for 1GP, but even so you could probably get a tinkerer to repair that pot for you for less then a mending spell. If a visit to the cleric is going to cost 10GP (a week's wage), are you going to go to them unless you absolutely need to?
That is part of the point, though, the economics of all that are designed with 5e assumptions about keeping the economy similar to the target of psuedo-medieval europe.
I don't think we should be assuming that those costs will remain that high, especially in a world built from scratch with ~1% or more of the population being able to cast at least lvl 1 spells, and either the DMG or new UA item creation rules.
And even that ignores the idea of something like Eberron's Magewrights, who train for years to do 1 or 2 ritual spells, which they then do for a living, and who can use wands.
I am not entirely familiar with high magic realms like Eberron, are they to the point that magical items are common place for everyday activities? If so then I would suggest that every magic item moves one step more common, with common items being treated as mundane.
If most equipment had even a low level magical ability that made it work then mending would not be as effective, those that do repairs on items would have to be able to restore the magical effect.
Due to the number of spell casters and items available law enforcement and security would have to adapt, as would criminals. Perhaps most street lanterns would be lanterns of revealing so that invisible characters would just appear.
I would imagine that most wealthy residences would have something that would stop magical access, so demission door or misty step into those houses would no longer work.
I would also adjust the cost of spell services so that cantrips cost ~1 SP, 1st level ~1GP and 2nd ~10GP.
As for the plant growth spell, why would druids do this? have they had guarantees that certain wild land will not be turned into pastures as long as they keep the farmland fertile? what would happen if those promises are broken?
I am currently running a game in the forgotten realms shortly after the spell plague. I thought it would be interesting to run a realm that had been starting to build up magical technology only to have it devastated by unseen events, now the citizens no longer trust magic and will only turn to it in times of need.
Eberron isn't high magic. Even mid level magic is *very* rare.
low level magic is more common, but not so common that most mundane equipment has an enchantment.
Eberron still assumes that even fairly low level PCs are quite rare, and his to high level characters are the stuff of legend.
So, most villages has a washing stone in the town center where you can have your clothes magically cleaned, but street lights are just a "normal" cantrip level enchantment, no detect invisibility.
Skilled workers get around 2GP/day, 10GP/week or 520GP/year (5 day workweek) Unskilled workers get around 2SP/day, 1Gp/week or 52GP/year
So unskilled hirelings who live in poor to squalid conditions might be able to save 16GP/year. Skilled Hirelings on the other hand can have a modest lifestyle and save around 160GP/year. A healing potion costs 50GP, or 5 weeks wages for a skilled hireling, and almost unaffordable for unskilled.
I love this post, because it really gives a good basis on which to develop this conversation further. Thanks for posting it. Your skilled laborer is clearly equivalent to my middle class citizen, which I flesh out below.
That is part of the point, though, the economics of all that are designed with 5e assumptions about keeping the economy similar to the target of psuedo-medieval europe.
I don't think we should be assuming that those costs will remain that high, especially in a world built from scratch with ~1% or more of the population being able to cast at least lvl 1 spells, and either the DMG or new UA item creation rules.
The problem with that line of thought is that we lose sight of the track that the game is providing for us to flesh out these details. If we say "well, these rules must be wrong, therefore we should ignore them," we don't have a sound basis to keep working out more details on. Also, we will probably wind up with a much greater difference of opinions than if we stayed within the ruleset.
And god knows I'm not a stickler for the rules (check my houserules, linked in my signature). But, otherwise, we wind up with one person talking about flying cars for everyone while the rest of us wonder what she or he is talking about and the thread dries up. There are plenty of threads to develop your own campaign lore. Here, I think it's best to just look at what inferences we can make from the books. At least in my opinion.
So, most villages has a washing stone in the town center where you can have your clothes magically cleaned, but street lights are just a "normal" cantrip level enchantment, no detect invisibility.
This is how I imagine things too. Here's what I have for my campaign's description of the setting's wealth levels (which I stole from an Enworld poster that I've since lost track of):
Less than 1% of the population are wealthy individuals that spend around 200 gp per month. That kind of cash establishes you as a person of power, lets you develop useful contacts, and yields other in-game benefits.
About 2% to 10% of the population belong to a growing minority, the middle-class, and spends about 40 gp per month. For most people, this is a successful life, and it includes skilled craftsmen, officials, most nobles, officials and officers.
About 10% to 20% of the population spends about 10 gp per month. This is the category of individuals who are clawing their way out of poverty. For the unsuccessful or novice adventurer, they sleep 5 to a room (1 sp) and eat 1 meal/day (2 sp), the 3 sp/day is 2 gp/week or 8 gp/month for long-term stay. Call it 10 gp/month including equipment, clothes, booze & sundries. A little less than what a mercenary sergeant or elite soldier makes. Also covers journeyman artisans and similar levels.
The remaining majority (70-99%) of people live by spending about 3 gp per month, or living off the land they cultivate. A peasant labourer sleeps in a ragged blanket on a dry(ish) stone/reed floor with 30 other men for 1 cp/day, gets your food from the market with plenty of hot broth and porridge and you can eat for ca 5 cp/day, if there's regular work you still have 4 cp/day for patching your rags and drinking plenty of weak beer at ca 2 cp/gallon... Not such a bad life by historical standards. But if there's no regular work, you better hope you saved some cps, or it's a choice (at best) between starvation, slavery and begging.
Costs roughly equate to 1 cp = $1, 1gp = $100.
While this sounds like a very gritty world, it's actually pretty average, based on thesesources, for what the setting has to be like. So, relatively few people running around with magic items.
My 5e Houserule Considerations. Please comment freely.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I mean, in the end, a person's gotta structure their world and their game to best suit themselves and their group. As I said already, I think some thought as to how magic affects society is a very good thing. But if you're focusing too distinctly on any one element, your game is going to suffer.
That's why 5E exists... Throughout the late 80's and 90's, and then bleeding over into 3E / d20, the big push in FRPG's was to make the game feel more realistic (give Rolemaster a shot if you haven't already). They found out the hard way that wasn't the best approach to making a solid, playable FRPG that strikes the proper balance of sensible, logical, and keeps the rhythm of gameplay where it needs to be.
Way to negativity spam the thread into silence.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
Anyone got ideas for magic items?
How rare is "uncommon"?
What impact does the availability of Alchemists Fire, and Healing Potions, have on the world?
What about the abilities of the races?
We do bones, motherf***ker!
What about the life spans and birth rates of the races? Think about how many elves there would be if their birthrates are any thing like human birthrates... over the course of 700 years.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
My 5e Houserule Considerations. Please comment freely.
I'm more interested in the sorts of things you see in Eberron. Magic items that aren't attractive to adventurers, but make a difference to the every day world.
Take all those spells we've talked about, and imagine being able to spend a few months making them into a permanent item. Hell, if you can spend a year's work making a plow that enriches the soil it plows, or a tuning fork that lets a person redirect water, or move, or mold, earth, or create a campfire size fire that lasts as long as you like, they would be worth the cost. But using 5e's crafting rules, it wouldn't take a year, because those are all very low level, and would thus be uncommon at the worst. So we are talking months, at most, assuming no help.
Even if we assume you have to be able to use magic of the same level to use the item, that means the one guy who can cast 1st level spells of any kind can use all of those items.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I honestly don't think wands of message would be make it worthwhile to build that many towers, but enchantments built into the tower might, not really for law enforcement, but for defense, coordinating public works, sending messages more quickly than you can by horse, etc.
The First Persian Empire had well maintained roads with hostels and messenger posts no more than 1 day ride apart. I'd see the same thing in a world with low level magic items as discussed.
With hearths that can burn without fuel, pots that purify their own water, and wands of mending for fix anything that breaks.
There really isn't any way such a world could ever develop, much less maintain, the gross distopia that was "dark ages" Europe.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
My 5e Houserule Considerations. Please comment freely.
I think the new crafting rules, and maybe the DMG rules, allow for spells to be enchanted into objects, so I don't see why the list of items would be especially limited.
Also, the DMG is focused on things player characters will use.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
Hey, been lurking for a few days now and just been thinking about who would use and pay for such services.
Skilled workers get around 2GP/day, 10GP/week or 520GP/year (5 day workweek)
Unskilled workers get around 2SP/day, 1Gp/week or 52GP/year
So unskilled hirelings who live in poor to squalid conditions might be able to save 16GP/year.
Skilled Hirelings on the other hand can have a modest lifestyle and save around 160GP/year.
A healing potion costs 50GP, or 5 weeks wages for a skilled hireling, and almost unaffordable for unskilled.
Hiring someone to cast a relatively common spell of 1st or 2nd level, such as cure wounds or identify, is easy enough in a city or town, and might cost 10(1st level) to 50(2nd Level) gold pieces (plus the cost of any expensive material components).
Maybe someone would cast a cantrip for 1GP, but even so you could probably get a tinkerer to repair that pot for you for less then a mending spell.
If a visit to the cleric is going to cost 10GP (a week's wage), are you going to go to them unless you absolutely need to?
That is part of the point, though, the economics of all that are designed with 5e assumptions about keeping the economy similar to the target of psuedo-medieval europe.
I don't think we should be assuming that those costs will remain that high, especially in a world built from scratch with ~1% or more of the population being able to cast at least lvl 1 spells, and either the DMG or new UA item creation rules.
And even that ignores the idea of something like Eberron's Magewrights, who train for years to do 1 or 2 ritual spells, which they then do for a living, and who can use wands.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I am not entirely familiar with high magic realms like Eberron, are they to the point that magical items are common place for everyday activities?
If so then I would suggest that every magic item moves one step more common, with common items being treated as mundane.
If most equipment had even a low level magical ability that made it work then mending would not be as effective, those that do repairs on items would have to be able to restore the magical effect.
Due to the number of spell casters and items available law enforcement and security would have to adapt, as would criminals.
Perhaps most street lanterns would be lanterns of revealing so that invisible characters would just appear.
I would imagine that most wealthy residences would have something that would stop magical access, so demission door or misty step into those houses would no longer work.
I would also adjust the cost of spell services so that cantrips cost ~1 SP, 1st level ~1GP and 2nd ~10GP.
As for the plant growth spell, why would druids do this? have they had guarantees that certain wild land will not be turned into pastures as long as they keep the farmland fertile? what would happen if those promises are broken?
I am currently running a game in the forgotten realms shortly after the spell plague. I thought it would be interesting to run a realm that had been starting to build up magical technology only to have it devastated by unseen events, now the citizens no longer trust magic and will only turn to it in times of need.
Eberron isn't high magic. Even mid level magic is *very* rare.
low level magic is more common, but not so common that most mundane equipment has an enchantment.
Eberron still assumes that even fairly low level PCs are quite rare, and his to high level characters are the stuff of legend.
So, most villages has a washing stone in the town center where you can have your clothes magically cleaned, but street lights are just a "normal" cantrip level enchantment, no detect invisibility.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
About 2% to 10% of the population belong to a growing minority, the middle-class, and spends about 40 gp per month. For most people, this is a successful life, and it includes skilled craftsmen, officials, most nobles, officials and officers.
About 10% to 20% of the population spends about 10 gp per month. This is the category of individuals who are clawing their way out of poverty. For the unsuccessful or novice adventurer, they sleep 5 to a room (1 sp) and eat 1 meal/day (2 sp), the 3 sp/day is 2 gp/week or 8 gp/month for long-term stay. Call it 10 gp/month including equipment, clothes, booze & sundries. A little less than what a mercenary sergeant or elite soldier makes. Also covers journeyman artisans and similar levels.
The remaining majority (70-99%) of people live by spending about 3 gp per month, or living off the land they cultivate. A peasant labourer sleeps in a ragged blanket on a dry(ish) stone/reed floor with 30 other men for 1 cp/day, gets your food from the market with plenty of hot broth and porridge and you can eat for ca 5 cp/day, if there's regular work you still have 4 cp/day for patching your rags and drinking plenty of weak beer at ca 2 cp/gallon... Not such a bad life by historical standards. But if there's no regular work, you better hope you saved some cps, or it's a choice (at best) between starvation, slavery and begging.
Costs roughly equate to 1 cp = $1, 1gp = $100.
My 5e Houserule Considerations. Please comment freely.