im new to dnd, so i dont know if there is an obvious answer to this, but is there, like, a demon king? i know there are demon lords, but is there a top dog among them?
I now understand that there isnt really a king, so who is the strongest demon lord?
I don't think it really works that way. There is no demon "kingdom". Kingdoms are a Material Plane thing, really. There is the Abyss, but that's a whole 'nother can of beans than any old material plane like Oerth or Krynn.
Asmodeus was the strongest archdevil, but he became a god. Demon lords and archdevils are demigods, more or less. The strongest (and oldest) demon lord is Demogorgon, with Orcus probably a close second (he was a deity as well for a time).
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't think it really works that way. There is no demon "kingdom". Kingdoms are a Material Plane thing, really. There is the Abyss, but that's a whole 'nother can of beans than any old material plane like Oerth or Krynn.
Asmodeus was the strongest archdevil, but he became a god. Demon lords and archdevils are demigods, more or less. The strongest (and oldest) demon lord is Demogorgon, with Orcus probably a close second (he was a deity as well for a time).
Any demon lord could proclaim themselves a king, and no one could really stop them. Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt are the main contenders, though. There are older and stronger demon lords, like Dagon and Pale Night, but they don't really care about titles. Keep in mind that demons only care about themselves and are not a unified society. Any 'king' would only last until they're killed by another demon.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew:Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
You mean Pale Night? She's certainly a power in the Abyss, but she has little concern for the political dynamics of the plane.
Demons are by their nature chaotic and buck under the idea of things like rank or submitting to authority. Demogorgon calls himself the Prince of Demons, but he only controls a tiny sliver of the Abyss, just like the other Demon Princes.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The Queen of Chaos was arguably the most powerful proto-demon, but her obyrith army was beaten and she's been hidden away for eons. Dagon is probably the most powerful active obyrith in her absence, and is allied with Demogorgon who is nominally the prince of demons. For the uninitiated, obyriths are an older strain of demon that are more lovecraftian in nature than the current strain of tanar'ri.
The title of "Prince of Demons" is usually given to the strongest Demon lord in the Abyss and has passed down through many different Demons:
The first was Obox-ob, the prince of Vermin, one of the first Demon Lords to appear in the Abyss after Tharizdun (The God tricked into creating the Abyss) gazed into the ancient Demon's dying reality.
Obox-ob was eventually beaten by the Queen of Chaos, a much more strategic ancient Demon Lord, who gave the title of Prince of Demons to her champion: Miska the Wolf Spider, who was banished to Pandemonium (the plane of pure chaos) in the war against the Wind Dukes of Aaqa (Mysterious, Order aligned wind elementals).
The Queen of Chaos was responsible for creating the "modern" breed of Demons we are more used to seeing today (The Tana'ri) using the souls of mortals. She used them as cannon fodder in the war against the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. However, the first Tana'ri she created, which she discarded for being too weak, eventually was able to grow up into a VERY powerful creature who eventually overthrew her after she lost her champion.
The Demon who defeated the Queen of Chaos, the first Tana'ri, is Demogorgon, and they are the "Prince of Demons" to this day.
The prince of Demons doesn't necessarily rule over Demonkind, other demons only do what the "Prince" desires because they know they are too weak to oppose them, for demons might makes right, and Demogorgon is the mightiest of them all.
To give a perspective on how powerful Demogorgon is, their main rivals and top contenders for the title of "Prince of Demons" are:
Orcus, Demon Lord of the Undead, AKA the guy some believe taught Vecna how to become a lich. And Graz'zt, Demon lord of forbidden pleasures and corrupt rulers, AKA Tasha's main source of demonic secrets, who helped Iggwilv become THE Witch Queen of Perrenland.
im new to dnd, so i dont know if there is an obvious answer to this, but is there, like, a demon king? i know there are demon lords, but is there a top dog among them?
I now understand that there isnt really a king, so who is the strongest demon lord?
This is entirely a personal point of view - but I don't think demons last long enough to establish any sort of heirarchy. To my mind, the abyss is a frantic scramble for the top, every demon in existance climbing over the bodies of their rivals trying to become something greater. Thinking, essentially, that the suffering will be less at the top. While, ironically of course, the only way to stop being in hell is to stop crawling towards the top.
And once you get there, when you're finally the greatest demon in existance, you're quickly shredded by your many, many rivals. And then, you start over, right at the bottom.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
im new to dnd, so i dont know if there is an obvious answer to this, but is there, like, a demon king? i know there are demon lords, but is there a top dog among them?
I now understand that there isnt really a king, so who is the strongest demon lord?
This is entirely a personal point of view - but I don't think demons last long enough to establish any sort of heirarchy. To my mind, the abyss is a frantic scramble for the top, every demon in existance climbing over the bodies of their rivals trying to become something greater. Thinking, essentially, that the suffering will be less at the top. While, ironically of course, the only way to stop being in hell is to stop crawling towards the top.
And once you get there, when you're finally the greatest demon in existance, you're quickly shredded by your many, many rivals. And then, you start over, right at the bottom.
There is actual canon lore about the Abyss and demons. JpksBR gave a pretty good summary of things: Demogorgon has been holding the title of Prince of Demons for millennia. There's no need to make up your own fan theories about it.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There is actual canon lore about the Abyss and demons. JpksBR gave a pretty good summary of things: Demogorgon has been holding the title of Prince of Demons for millennia. There's no need to make up your own fan theories about it.
I discard everything. On the one hand, I'm of the opinion that home brewers should be wary of the point of view that their fevered imaginings are better than those of the professionals. On the other hand, I openly and freely admit I feel I'm better at this than those in the employ of WoTC.
I'm crap at many things. But I am not crap at storytelling and world building. Although you're welcome to feel that way, there's no obligation to agree with me here =D
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
When someone asks a question in the Story & Lore forum, usually it means they're interested in the game's official lore and not someone's fan fiction. Especially fan fiction that's not being labeled as such.
Now, in this case it's probably not a huge issue given that the question was actually asked over three years ago, but still.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
When someone asks a question in the Story & Lore forum, usually it means they're interested in the game's official lore and not someone's fan fiction. Especially fan fiction that's not being labeled as such.
Now, in this case it's probably not a huge issue given that the question was actually asked over three years ago, but still.
What?
What is the VERY FIRST sentence in my post?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Everyone always discounts Fraz-urb'luu in these discussions; and that's exactly how Fraz-urb'luu's wants the game played.
Fraz-urb'luu also would totally convince a DM that the DM's ideas on fiendish lore are better than WotC's, while in truth that DM lore as presented is basically a rehash of how the Abyss works in canon, just with the DM mixing up The Abyss and the Hells. Sometimes Fraz-urb'luu plays his long cosmic con, and sometimes he punks a mark for petty lolz. It's all part of the plan, and the meta.
In my experience, Fraz-urb'luu is a very "sink or swim" demon lord to apply in a table. You either make his influence very subtle, with npcs allied to him spreading missinformation and manipulating both the party and other important npcs, or you go all in, putting him front and center, creating fake origin stories and legends to make it seem that he and his cults are much stronger than they actually are.
I don't get what you mean by "Convince a DM" though.e
There is no King (or Queen of Demons), the closest your going to get is the Prince of Demons. This title is held currently by Demogorgon with Orcus and Graz'zt being his main rivals. However, if there ever was a King of Demons, then all the planes would be in danger. The biggest thing preventing the Abyss from spreading is that they're beings of chaos, making them inherently opposed to following orders. Therefore if a demon could somehow take charge of some of the bigger demon lords and create some form of order, then they would become closer to devils. So they not only have the organization of the devils, but the limitless numbers of the Abyss. That just spells the end of the other planes. Also, the universe itself might break just from the organization because demons are inherently chaotic and if they follow one being, then that defies the very nature of the Therefore, it's illogical for there to be a demon king, but it could make a pretty nice high level homebrew story.
im new to dnd, so i dont know if there is an obvious answer to this, but is there, like, a demon king? i know there are demon lords, but is there a top dog among them?
I now understand that there isnt really a king, so who is the strongest demon lord?
I don't think it really works that way. There is no demon "kingdom". Kingdoms are a Material Plane thing, really. There is the Abyss, but that's a whole 'nother can of beans than any old material plane like Oerth or Krynn.
Asmodeus was the strongest archdevil, but he became a god. Demon lords and archdevils are demigods, more or less. The strongest (and oldest) demon lord is Demogorgon, with Orcus probably a close second (he was a deity as well for a time).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Any demon lord could proclaim themselves a king, and no one could really stop them. Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt are the main contenders, though. There are older and stronger demon lords, like Dagon and Pale Night, but they don't really care about titles. Keep in mind that demons only care about themselves and are not a unified society. Any 'king' would only last until they're killed by another demon.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew: Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
There's actually the Pale Mother....
You mean Pale Night? She's certainly a power in the Abyss, but she has little concern for the political dynamics of the plane.
Demons are by their nature chaotic and buck under the idea of things like rank or submitting to authority. Demogorgon calls himself the Prince of Demons, but he only controls a tiny sliver of the Abyss, just like the other Demon Princes.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The Queen of Chaos was arguably the most powerful proto-demon, but her obyrith army was beaten and she's been hidden away for eons. Dagon is probably the most powerful active obyrith in her absence, and is allied with Demogorgon who is nominally the prince of demons. For the uninitiated, obyriths are an older strain of demon that are more lovecraftian in nature than the current strain of tanar'ri.
The title of "Prince of Demons" is usually given to the strongest Demon lord in the Abyss and has passed down through many different Demons:
The first was Obox-ob, the prince of Vermin, one of the first Demon Lords to appear in the Abyss after Tharizdun (The God tricked into creating the Abyss) gazed into the ancient Demon's dying reality.
Obox-ob was eventually beaten by the Queen of Chaos, a much more strategic ancient Demon Lord, who gave the title of Prince of Demons to her champion: Miska the Wolf Spider, who was banished to Pandemonium (the plane of pure chaos) in the war against the Wind Dukes of Aaqa (Mysterious, Order aligned wind elementals).
The Queen of Chaos was responsible for creating the "modern" breed of Demons we are more used to seeing today (The Tana'ri) using the souls of mortals. She used them as cannon fodder in the war against the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. However, the first Tana'ri she created, which she discarded for being too weak, eventually was able to grow up into a VERY powerful creature who eventually overthrew her after she lost her champion.
The Demon who defeated the Queen of Chaos, the first Tana'ri, is Demogorgon, and they are the "Prince of Demons" to this day.
The prince of Demons doesn't necessarily rule over Demonkind, other demons only do what the "Prince" desires because they know they are too weak to oppose them, for demons might makes right, and Demogorgon is the mightiest of them all.
To give a perspective on how powerful Demogorgon is, their main rivals and top contenders for the title of "Prince of Demons" are:
Orcus, Demon Lord of the Undead, AKA the guy some believe taught Vecna how to become a lich. And Graz'zt, Demon lord of forbidden pleasures and corrupt rulers, AKA Tasha's main source of demonic secrets, who helped Iggwilv become THE Witch Queen of Perrenland.
This is entirely a personal point of view - but I don't think demons last long enough to establish any sort of heirarchy. To my mind, the abyss is a frantic scramble for the top, every demon in existance climbing over the bodies of their rivals trying to become something greater. Thinking, essentially, that the suffering will be less at the top. While, ironically of course, the only way to stop being in hell is to stop crawling towards the top.
And once you get there, when you're finally the greatest demon in existance, you're quickly shredded by your many, many rivals. And then, you start over, right at the bottom.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There is actual canon lore about the Abyss and demons. JpksBR gave a pretty good summary of things: Demogorgon has been holding the title of Prince of Demons for millennia. There's no need to make up your own fan theories about it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I discard everything. On the one hand, I'm of the opinion that home brewers should be wary of the point of view that their fevered imaginings are better than those of the professionals. On the other hand, I openly and freely admit I feel I'm better at this than those in the employ of WoTC.
I'm crap at many things. But I am not crap at storytelling and world building. Although you're welcome to feel that way, there's no obligation to agree with me here =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
When someone asks a question in the Story & Lore forum, usually it means they're interested in the game's official lore and not someone's fan fiction. Especially fan fiction that's not being labeled as such.
Now, in this case it's probably not a huge issue given that the question was actually asked over three years ago, but still.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What?
What is the VERY FIRST sentence in my post?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In my experience, Fraz-urb'luu is a very "sink or swim" demon lord to apply in a table. You either make his influence very subtle, with npcs allied to him spreading missinformation and manipulating both the party and other important npcs, or you go all in, putting him front and center, creating fake origin stories and legends to make it seem that he and his cults are much stronger than they actually are.
I don't get what you mean by "Convince a DM" though.e
It was a very meta joke specific to this thread.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Ohh, i see it now XD
There is no King (or Queen of Demons), the closest your going to get is the Prince of Demons. This title is held currently by Demogorgon with Orcus and Graz'zt being his main rivals. However, if there ever was a King of Demons, then all the planes would be in danger. The biggest thing preventing the Abyss from spreading is that they're beings of chaos, making them inherently opposed to following orders. Therefore if a demon could somehow take charge of some of the bigger demon lords and create some form of order, then they would become closer to devils. So they not only have the organization of the devils, but the limitless numbers of the Abyss. That just spells the end of the other planes. Also, the universe itself might break just from the organization because demons are inherently chaotic and if they follow one being, then that defies the very nature of the Therefore, it's illogical for there to be a demon king, but it could make a pretty nice high level homebrew story.