For context my character is a tortle who is level two currently and as I have busted stats (+4 Str and +5 Wis) I plan at level 4 to be taking a feat. However I don't have much experience in this as I ususally just go with an Asi but I feel like that might be a waste. I plan to be chilling in the front line with my fighter and so I want to know what feat might best suit my character and martial preference. I think War Caster may be my best option but maybe there are other options that I'm not considering. Feel free to share any advice you can think of and thank you
I don't know your statline, but if you want to exist on the front line, Resilient (Constitution) is hard to argue with for any caster. Spirit Guardians while you just... aggressively exist near your enemies is probably going to be a go-to solution for you, so you want to ensure you keep it up. Both War Caster and Resilient (Constitution) can help with that, and a critical question is what your Con score is.
Skill Expert (Athletics) will help you get better at shoving people prone, and the stat point can go to any ability you want, a rarity in half-feats. You can also just apply it to Perception, which is a good choice for literally everyone, but I'm trying to support your martial focus.
If you don't mind concentrating on something that isn't Spirit Guardians, Fey Touched (Hex or Compelled Duel) can be super useful for you. Remember, Hex won't count as a cleric spell for you, so on the rare occasion it comes up, your L6 ability won't let the damage from Hex ignore necrotic resistance.
Ritual Caster (Wizard) will let you get your hands on Find Familiar. This isn't only helpful for the Help action in combat - familiars can't attack, but they can touch. That means they can't deliver Inflict Wounds for you, but they can deliver Bestow Curse for you, which I imagine you have all manner of use for.
While this won't get you all that much benefit for the steep cost of a feat, you could use Spell Sniper to learn Thorn Whip, which works both for pulling targets into Spirit Guardians and with Spirit Shroud. I wouldn't do this myself, but it's worth pointing out.
Does your DM enforce component rules? Somatic in particular. If so, warcaster probably is the best choice, especially since a front liner will have both hands occupied. If not, that’s when things open up, and I’d go more toward quindraco’s suggestion of resilient con.
Thanks for the in depth reply, my constitution score is only a +2 but I was hoping with my 19 AC bc of a shield I could still manage in the front lines. I did also look at Resilient (Constitution) just because it seems like that would be best ignoring war caster.
Resiliant Con and Warcaster are similar in that they both help you maintain concentration. Even with 19 AC, if you are in the front line you will still get hit occasionally and this will happen more often as you level. (at level 2 most of the monsters you face will have a +4 or maybe +5 to attack, by the time you get to level 8 this is likely to be around +9, but deending on how generous your DM is with magic items your AC will probably be no higher than 20 by then, so instead of the monsters needing a natural 15 to hit you they only need a natureal 11). Your AC will also not help for damage incurred from save type attacks / traps. To be a front line cleric you really need one of warcaster or resiliant at least by level 8 (and with your wis and str you want it at level 4) (If the campaign goes to later levels you can even consider both)
The differences are
Resiliant gives you a +1 to con, if your con is odd this is the equialent of an ASI and the feat, if your con is even it doesn't help unless you pan on taking another feat like skilled expert to make it even again.
Resiliant gets stronger as you level up while warcaster doesn't, roughly speaking advantage is worth about +4 so warcaster will help you keep you concentration more until you reach level 9 but be less good from level 13 on. So this depends on what level you expect to get to.
As a cleric you can use you shield as a spell focus but RAW if a spell has somantic componants but not material components you would need to sheath your weapon (object interaction) to cast the spell, many DMs waive this rule as it can slow the game down if players have to check what componants their spells have. This affects a lot of cleric spells (toll the dead, sacred flame, spiritual weapon, guiding bolt....) so if your DM enforces this rule warcaster is the preferred option
Warcaster allows you to cast a spell in place of an opportunity attack, the spell camn only target the creature provoking the attack so it really depends on your playstyle, if your are likely to hit them with your hammer anyway then this means nothing if you prefer toll the dead or sometihn like hold person instead then this wll help you.
Proficiency is worth +2 to +6. Advantage is worth less than 5 but more than 4.5 if you make a lot of assumptions WOTC seems to have made with balancing their design*. However, both War Caster and Resilient Con do more than just that - for example, Resilient is a half feat. If your Con score is odd, you get an additional +1 to Con saves from the feat and more hit points. It's important not to over-simplify what the feats do.
*To give you example numbers, if you're Con 10 and not proficient in Con saves and resisting a DC 10 spell, advantage is worth +4.8.
Really hard to imagine what use a Death Cleric is getting out of +4 Strength, considering there's no Necromancy Cantrips calling for melee weapon attacks. Death Clerics (1) twin Toll the Dead and Spare the Dying, (2) use Channel DIvinity to boost their Vampiric Touch for more healing when backed in a corner, or on ranged spells when not, (3) drop necrotic Spirit Guardians with impunity against all enemy types regardless of resistance, and (4) at high levels, twin other non-cantrip spells like Contagion, Blindness/Deafness, etc.
If you're wading around in close melee swinging a mace, you're doing it wrong. Death Clerics are pretty much exclusively mid-ranged casters with maxed Wisdom progression, with little or no incentive to be in the front lines making mundane weapon attacks. If you want that Strength to be meaningful, a multiclass is in your future, such as to .... Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight or Profane Soul Bloodhunter, to mix your twinned cantrip in with some melee attacks? I dunno, its a stretch, that 18 Str seems like a vanity score that probably won't ever do you much good.
Would I then just ignore the divine strike they get? If they had potent spellcasting then I would totally agree but since they don't, surely it would still be beneficial to have some strength.
8th-level cleric feature, which replaces the Divine Strike or Potent Spellcasting feature
You are blessed with divine might in battle. When a creature takes damage from one of your cantrips or weapon attacks, you can also deal 1d8 radiant damage to that creature. Once you deal this damage, you can’t use this feature again until the start of your next turn.”
A kind DM would probably let that be necrotic, instead of radiant, since there’s no real way to stack it on to Vampiric Touch and the damage type is essentially just fluff. It’s just hard for me to understand why a death cleric would be spending their turns attacking once with a melee weapon under any realistic scenario, unless they were multiclassed into being a self-healing Gish with Eldritch Knight, Profane Soul, or Bladesinger. That DOES sound like a fun character, but a pure cleric should be casting spells, not swinging for the fences.
Ah ok then. I havent bought Tasha's sourcebook yet so I didnt know this was an option. Once I get that then maybe my dm will let me move around my ability scores so that I'm not in this weird balance of melee or spellcasting. Thanks for bringing this to my attention I appreciate it
Meh, don't shift your stats around mid-campaign, sorry I came off negative about your character. Being a stronk death turtle sounds like a fun enough character to roleplay, I'm just saying, there isn't a lot of neat cleric optimization stuff for you that the Strength score is relevant for. Already having 20 Wisdom before level 4 means that even if the rest of your scores are strange and weird, all you really need is Warcaster or Resilient (Con) (or both) and you're "done" building for normal Cleric responsibilities. So just enjoy the character, and then burn the rest of your feats on weird stuff like Chef or Tough or Con boosting or whatever.
Thanks for the advice, I should say though that my dm already let me completely respec him a while ago. He is now a level 2 circle of spores druid and I multiclassed into a single level of war cleric. Now I have the plus 4 in my Con and my Wis is still plus 5. This way I can use shillelagh and pump out some impressive damage (at least i think it is) at level 3, I think my average damage for 5 turns is 31 and then after the 5 turns it drops to 18. I'm simply keeping this thread about a death cleric alive since I plan to make more in the future and because Im still learning new things which is cool.
I’m new to D&D and I’m on my first campaign. I am reaching level 4 and your fellow Cleric needs guidance (Pun intended)!
i’m a Death Cleric with 20 WIS & 16 CON. Doing a lot of healing and necro mid range damage. I plan to exploit the heck out of Spirit Guardians in level 5 so I want to boost my Concentration and here comes the dilemma…
Should I take 2 in CON as an ASI to go up to 18 (+1) or should it take a feat: Either Resilient or War caster ? (Not sure if statistically it is better to have advantage i.e:2 rolls or adding to your initial roll.
I’m new to D&D and I’m on my first campaign. I am reaching level 4 and your fellow Cleric needs guidance (Pun intended)!
i’m a Death Cleric with 20 WIS & 16 CON. Doing a lot of healing and necro mid range damage. I plan to exploit the heck out of Spirit Guardians in level 5 so I want to boost my Concentration and here comes the dilemma…
Should I take 2 in CON as an ASI to go up to 18 (+1) or should it take a feat: Either Resilient or War caster ? (Not sure if statistically it is better to have advantage i.e:2 rolls or adding to your initial roll.
Thanks for the help!
How strictly do you follow component rules? If your table uses them, and you are weapon and shield, that can tip it to warcaster. If not, resilient con can be better, not because of the math so much, but because the bonus applies to all con saves, not just concentration saves.
Thanks Xalthu, we don’t use them much, as I have my symbol on my shield. We use them only if the spell has to consume components. so you recommend resilient feat vs a 2 CON ASI?
First of all, how did you even end up with an ability score of 20 at level two anyway? That's insanely OP and I, if I was the DM in this situation, would call for that stat to be lowered.
Anyway, on the subject of feats, you can never go wrong picking War Caster as a cleric. Being able to opportunity-attack by casting command forcing the target to stop moving and drop prone is a great combination I discovered with this feat, and being able to wield your Flail of Evil Death and your shield while still casting spells, and being able to concentrate on your spells more easily, are also handy perks for almost all cleric characters.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Thanks Xalthu, we don’t use them much, as I have my symbol on my shield. We use them only if the spell has to consume components. so you recommend resilient feat vs a 2 CON ASI?
Symbol on the shield doesn’t always work, technically. It’s this wierd/annoying system where if a spell has M and S components both, it works fine. But if the spell has S components, but not M, you technically need a free hand and would need to put away or drop your weapon to cast. Because if there are M components (which the shield symbol covers) you can use the same hand for the S. But if there’s no M, just S, you can’t use the shield hand.
Theres actually quite a few cleric spells that fit the criteria, cure wounds, for example is V,S. As is dispel magic, guiding bolt, lesser restoration, and more.
But if you guys don’t worry about that, it’s not as critical that you take warcaster. It’s still a good choice, and like panda points out, cantrip OA can be great. And since your casting stat is almost certainly higher than you melee stat, you’ll probably be more effective with the spell attacks.
On the other hand, as I noted, resilient con will apply to all con saves, so that’s pretty good. And math wise, when you proficiency bonus hits +4, it’s better than advantage. (That was my takeaway from a recent video where it turned out that statistically, advantage is worth about +3.3).
It mostly depends on where you want the utility. Personally, I always go warcaster when I make melee clerics. But lots of others don’t and still have really effective characters.
Thanks, is my DEX is odd, I will take resilient and make my CON odd as well, have the proficiency in CON that will ultimately be better statistically and in the next ASI in level 8 I will even both to get the +1 boost on both CON & DEX. Knowing advantage is a +3.3 is huge! Thanks for the help!
We rolled die for each ability and we have to be between a total Max and a total Min. I got a base score of 18 for wisdom and then maxed it with my race. (yes I ranked my intelligence). Thanks for the advice! I’ll go for a feat vs an ASI.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For context my character is a tortle who is level two currently and as I have busted stats (+4 Str and +5 Wis) I plan at level 4 to be taking a feat. However I don't have much experience in this as I ususally just go with an Asi but I feel like that might be a waste. I plan to be chilling in the front line with my fighter and so I want to know what feat might best suit my character and martial preference. I think War Caster may be my best option but maybe there are other options that I'm not considering. Feel free to share any advice you can think of and thank you
I don't know your statline, but if you want to exist on the front line, Resilient (Constitution) is hard to argue with for any caster. Spirit Guardians while you just... aggressively exist near your enemies is probably going to be a go-to solution for you, so you want to ensure you keep it up. Both War Caster and Resilient (Constitution) can help with that, and a critical question is what your Con score is.
Skill Expert (Athletics) will help you get better at shoving people prone, and the stat point can go to any ability you want, a rarity in half-feats. You can also just apply it to Perception, which is a good choice for literally everyone, but I'm trying to support your martial focus.
If you don't mind concentrating on something that isn't Spirit Guardians, Fey Touched (Hex or Compelled Duel) can be super useful for you. Remember, Hex won't count as a cleric spell for you, so on the rare occasion it comes up, your L6 ability won't let the damage from Hex ignore necrotic resistance.
Ritual Caster (Wizard) will let you get your hands on Find Familiar. This isn't only helpful for the Help action in combat - familiars can't attack, but they can touch. That means they can't deliver Inflict Wounds for you, but they can deliver Bestow Curse for you, which I imagine you have all manner of use for.
While this won't get you all that much benefit for the steep cost of a feat, you could use Spell Sniper to learn Thorn Whip, which works both for pulling targets into Spirit Guardians and with Spirit Shroud. I wouldn't do this myself, but it's worth pointing out.
Does your DM enforce component rules? Somatic in particular. If so, warcaster probably is the best choice, especially since a front liner will have both hands occupied. If not, that’s when things open up, and I’d go more toward quindraco’s suggestion of resilient con.
Thanks for the in depth reply, my constitution score is only a +2 but I was hoping with my 19 AC bc of a shield I could still manage in the front lines. I did also look at Resilient (Constitution) just because it seems like that would be best ignoring war caster.
Resiliant Con and Warcaster are similar in that they both help you maintain concentration. Even with 19 AC, if you are in the front line you will still get hit occasionally and this will happen more often as you level. (at level 2 most of the monsters you face will have a +4 or maybe +5 to attack, by the time you get to level 8 this is likely to be around +9, but deending on how generous your DM is with magic items your AC will probably be no higher than 20 by then, so instead of the monsters needing a natural 15 to hit you they only need a natureal 11). Your AC will also not help for damage incurred from save type attacks / traps. To be a front line cleric you really need one of warcaster or resiliant at least by level 8 (and with your wis and str you want it at level 4) (If the campaign goes to later levels you can even consider both)
The differences are
Definitely Resilient despiste your CON score. This is a mandatory feat for any Cleric.
Proficiency is worth +2 to +6. Advantage is worth less than 5 but more than 4.5 if you make a lot of assumptions WOTC seems to have made with balancing their design*. However, both War Caster and Resilient Con do more than just that - for example, Resilient is a half feat. If your Con score is odd, you get an additional +1 to Con saves from the feat and more hit points. It's important not to over-simplify what the feats do.
*To give you example numbers, if you're Con 10 and not proficient in Con saves and resisting a DC 10 spell, advantage is worth +4.8.
Really hard to imagine what use a Death Cleric is getting out of +4 Strength, considering there's no Necromancy Cantrips calling for melee weapon attacks. Death Clerics (1) twin Toll the Dead and Spare the Dying, (2) use Channel DIvinity to boost their Vampiric Touch for more healing when backed in a corner, or on ranged spells when not, (3) drop necrotic Spirit Guardians with impunity against all enemy types regardless of resistance, and (4) at high levels, twin other non-cantrip spells like Contagion, Blindness/Deafness, etc.
If you're wading around in close melee swinging a mace, you're doing it wrong. Death Clerics are pretty much exclusively mid-ranged casters with maxed Wisdom progression, with little or no incentive to be in the front lines making mundane weapon attacks. If you want that Strength to be meaningful, a multiclass is in your future, such as to .... Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight or Profane Soul Bloodhunter, to mix your twinned cantrip in with some melee attacks? I dunno, its a stretch, that 18 Str seems like a vanity score that probably won't ever do you much good.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Would I then just ignore the divine strike they get? If they had potent spellcasting then I would totally agree but since they don't, surely it would still be beneficial to have some strength.
Thus why Tasha’s released this option:
A kind DM would probably let that be necrotic, instead of radiant, since there’s no real way to stack it on to Vampiric Touch and the damage type is essentially just fluff. It’s just hard for me to understand why a death cleric would be spending their turns attacking once with a melee weapon under any realistic scenario, unless they were multiclassed into being a self-healing Gish with Eldritch Knight, Profane Soul, or Bladesinger. That DOES sound like a fun character, but a pure cleric should be casting spells, not swinging for the fences.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ah ok then. I havent bought Tasha's sourcebook yet so I didnt know this was an option. Once I get that then maybe my dm will let me move around my ability scores so that I'm not in this weird balance of melee or spellcasting. Thanks for bringing this to my attention I appreciate it
Meh, don't shift your stats around mid-campaign, sorry I came off negative about your character. Being a stronk death turtle sounds like a fun enough character to roleplay, I'm just saying, there isn't a lot of neat cleric optimization stuff for you that the Strength score is relevant for. Already having 20 Wisdom before level 4 means that even if the rest of your scores are strange and weird, all you really need is Warcaster or Resilient (Con) (or both) and you're "done" building for normal Cleric responsibilities. So just enjoy the character, and then burn the rest of your feats on weird stuff like Chef or Tough or Con boosting or whatever.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thanks for the advice, I should say though that my dm already let me completely respec him a while ago. He is now a level 2 circle of spores druid and I multiclassed into a single level of war cleric. Now I have the plus 4 in my Con and my Wis is still plus 5. This way I can use shillelagh and pump out some impressive damage (at least i think it is) at level 3, I think my average damage for 5 turns is 31 and then after the 5 turns it drops to 18. I'm simply keeping this thread about a death cleric alive since I plan to make more in the future and because Im still learning new things which is cool.
Hey there fellow adventurers!
I’m new to D&D and I’m on my first campaign. I am reaching level 4 and your fellow Cleric needs guidance (Pun intended)!
i’m a Death Cleric with 20 WIS & 16 CON. Doing a lot of healing and necro mid range damage. I plan to exploit the heck out of Spirit Guardians in level 5 so I want to boost my Concentration and here comes the dilemma…
Should I take 2 in CON as an ASI to go up to 18 (+1) or should it take a feat: Either Resilient or War caster ? (Not sure if statistically it is better to have advantage i.e:2 rolls or adding to your initial roll.
Thanks for the help!
How strictly do you follow component rules? If your table uses them, and you are weapon and shield, that can tip it to warcaster. If not, resilient con can be better, not because of the math so much, but because the bonus applies to all con saves, not just concentration saves.
Thanks Xalthu, we don’t use them much, as I have my symbol on my shield.
We use them only if the spell has to consume components.
so you recommend resilient feat vs a 2 CON ASI?
First of all, how did you even end up with an ability score of 20 at level two anyway? That's insanely OP and I, if I was the DM in this situation, would call for that stat to be lowered.
Anyway, on the subject of feats, you can never go wrong picking War Caster as a cleric. Being able to opportunity-attack by casting command forcing the target to stop moving and drop prone is a great combination I discovered with this feat, and being able to wield your Flail of Evil Death and your shield while still casting spells, and being able to concentrate on your spells more easily, are also handy perks for almost all cleric characters.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Symbol on the shield doesn’t always work, technically. It’s this wierd/annoying system where if a spell has M and S components both, it works fine. But if the spell has S components, but not M, you technically need a free hand and would need to put away or drop your weapon to cast. Because if there are M components (which the shield symbol covers) you can use the same hand for the S. But if there’s no M, just S, you can’t use the shield hand.
Theres actually quite a few cleric spells that fit the criteria, cure wounds, for example is V,S. As is dispel magic, guiding bolt, lesser restoration, and more.
But if you guys don’t worry about that, it’s not as critical that you take warcaster. It’s still a good choice, and like panda points out, cantrip OA can be great. And since your casting stat is almost certainly higher than you melee stat, you’ll probably be more effective with the spell attacks.
On the other hand, as I noted, resilient con will apply to all con saves, so that’s pretty good. And math wise, when you proficiency bonus hits +4, it’s better than advantage. (That was my takeaway from a recent video where it turned out that statistically, advantage is worth about +3.3).
It mostly depends on where you want the utility. Personally, I always go warcaster when I make melee clerics. But lots of others don’t and still have really effective characters.
Thanks, is my DEX is odd, I will take resilient and make my CON odd as well, have the proficiency in CON that will ultimately be better statistically and in the next ASI in level 8 I will even both to get the +1 boost on both CON & DEX.
Knowing advantage is a +3.3 is huge! Thanks for the help!
We rolled die for each ability and we have to be between a total Max and a total Min. I got a base score of 18 for wisdom and then maxed it with my race. (yes I ranked my intelligence).
Thanks for the advice! I’ll go for a feat vs an ASI.