Well, even if you are talking about a Dex build, you're still looking at 2 ASIs to get dex to 20 (unless you stack your starting bonuses, and then it is still 1), so you only have 2 more. You might get a +5 to wis at 19 *if* you don't take a single feat. You're more likely looking at a +2 or+3 at the end of the game. 1 vs 2 or 3.... isn't quite the same comparison.
It is all style. There is no wrong answer. If you want to dump wis, you do need to think about your future choices, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.
Well, even if you are talking about a Dex build, you're still looking at 2 ASIs to get dex to 20 (unless you stack your starting bonuses, and then it is still 1), so you only have 2 more. You might get a +5 to wis at 19 *if* you don't take a single feat. You're more likely looking at a +2 or+3 at the end of the game. 1 vs 2 or 3.... isn't quite the same comparison.
It is all style. There is no wrong answer. If you want to dump wis, you do need to think about your future choices, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.
You can easily get 3 uses at level 1 vs 1 use tho is my point
3 vs. 1 is a big difference IMO and a DC difference of 2 is pretty big as well but that's my opinion again.
But I agree you can make anything work it's just about trade off.
14 would be fine not optimal.....8 would be be pretty bad depending on the subclass.
Fey Wanderer, Gloomstalker, Monster Hunter, Swarmkeeper all have subclass features that are based on WIS so you would have very limited use of your subclass abilities either from a number of times you can use it, the bonus you get from it, or the DC associated with your abilities.
Also these subclasses get spells that rely on your DC as well so I would very very strongly suggest against dumping WIS for those subclasses.
Hunter and Horizon Walker would be OK to dump if you didn't mind having a terrible WIS save ( I personally never would if I could avoid it).
Lastly (and very much the most unlikely reason to consider overall) is that the level 20 feature for rangers procs from WIS...which means you would not get a capstone if you dumped WIS and since you cannot MC out if its dumped then you are stuck with getting mostly nothing at level 20.
Granted this is extremely unlikely to happen anyway so its the last thing to consider but is true none the less.
For most subclasses, you're probably better off dumping DEX and being a Tortle than you are dumping WIS. The only subclass I'd add to your list (Hunters have no direct interaction with Dex or Wis unless they pick the L7 buff to some WIS saves and the L15 buff to some DEX saves, and Horizon Walkers only care about WIS for the truly excellent Banishment spell) would be the PHB BM, which has no subclass abilities directly reliant on WIS. All of the others reward your WIS score directly, to varying degrees.
Medium armor proficiency on Rangers is so.... weird, given that they need DEX to multiclass, and certainly their original ability set strongly encouraged Stealth as a skill to lean into (what's a Ranger in Half-plate supposed to do with PHB HIPS?). And while their Fighting Style choices include Defense, which is the actual best FS for sword-and-board, the evidence is that WOTC didn't intend that, what with cutting off their access to Protection. I struggle to understand how their initial playtesting suggested Rangers being proficient in medium armor and shields lent itself to Rangers being more fun and/or balanced. Much like with Druids, it'd make a lot more sense for them to get the Monk version of Unarmored Defense, if anything.
All Gloomstalker lose is 1 or 2 to their initiative bonus, nbd at all. “A subclass feature references wisdom” is not the same as “a subclass NEEDS wisdom” in all contexts.
All Gloomstalker lose is 1 or 2 to their initiative bonus, nbd at all. “A subclass feature references wisdom” is not the same as “a subclass NEEDS wisdom” in all contexts.
Actually you would loose about 8 overall assuming max WIS and DEX....
You will never max DEX with a STR build and if you have a negative WIS you are looking at a +2 to initiative vs a +10 (+5 DEX and +5 WIS).
Granted thats at the extreme end but a huge difference considering a feat is a worth +5.
On average you are looking at more like +5 from DEX and +3 from WIS so a +8 vs a +2 so thats a big difference IMO.
All Gloomstalker lose is 1 or 2 to their initiative bonus, nbd at all. “A subclass feature references wisdom” is not the same as “a subclass NEEDS wisdom” in all contexts.
I'm not sure what you're comparing, here. In this post you mention going Str/Dex/Con - are you comparing to Wis 8? If we're comparing Wis 14 to Wis 8, that's a gap of 3, not 1 or 2. The gap is larger - 4 - for Wis 16 (which a 1/1/1 or 2/1/1 race can start at with no real concerns, and of course TCL may well end up there at L4 or L8). Regardless of the gap size, a Gloom Stalker will suffer the gap for poor Wisdom to:
Initiative, which has a rippling effect, as they get combat bonuses on turn 1 of combat - if losing initiative means the target can temporarily negate those bonuses, such as with a spell, the bonuses stay negated for the entire combat.
Perception, which Gloom Stalkers are expected to be good at, due to their enhanced darkvision.
Wisdom saves, which starting at L7 Gloom Stalkers are expected to be good at, but that's not the same as the above, because PCs generally don't have agency over which save they suffer.
3 spells: Disguise Self and Seeming (which is just Mass Disguise Self) and Fear.
Plus the core Ranger abilities which rely on Wisdom - if you take the Tasha's replacements, which reduce overall emphasis on Wisdom, that'll primarily impact your L10 THP, with a very minor interaction with Insight (since Rangers get 2 bonus languages).
A dex-based Gloomstalker, that uses archery or rapiers: at level 4, has something like 8/18/14/8/16/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling or a +8 to hit bonus and Archery, has a +7 initiative bonus (which doesn't really matter, unless they're an Assassin MC, which they aren't). At level 8, their dex is 20 (AC 17 in medium or light), have a +8 initiative bonus. At level 12, they have to decide whether they're going into Sharpshooter or Tough or something or going to continue to take ASI's in Wisdom... I've never yet met a Gloomstalker that was built to care about spells, so most likely, that Wisdom is staying at 16 for the rest of its life.
Edit: I made this unncessarily apples-to-oranges. This would be a better Dex-based Gloomstalker.
A dex-based Gloomstalker, that uses archery or rapiers: at level 4, has something like 8/18/16/8/14/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling or a +8 to hit bonus and Archery, has a +6 initiative bonus (which doesn't really matter, unless they're an Assassin MC, which they aren't). At level 8, their dex is 20 (AC 17 in medium or light), have a +7 initiative bonus. At level 12, they have to decide whether they're going into Sharpshooter or Tough or something or going to continue to take ASI's in Wisdom... I've never yet met a Gloomstalker that was built to care about spells, so most likely, that Wisdom is staying at 14 for the rest of its life.
A wis-based Gloomstalker, that uses Shillelagh and a quarterstaff and shield: at level 4, has something like 8/14/16/8/18/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Druidic fighting style, has a +6 initiative bonus (which again, is a pointless feature). At level 8, their Wis is 20, +7 initiative bonus. At level 12, they take PAM, and are probably never increasing their Dex any further. Shield Master could be nice at 16, though they won't be shoving. Very viable melee Gloomstalker, who is as good or better than a melee Dex-based Gloomstalker.
A str-based Gloomstalker, that uses a Greatsword or a Glaive or something and Defense fighting style: at level 4, has something like 18/14/16/8/8/8. AC 18 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and defense fighting style, has a +2 initiative bonus (which isn't any better or worse than having a +7, really). At level 8, their Str is 20. At level 12, they take GWM, and at level 16 they'll probably want to take PAM or Tough or whatever.
A str-based Gloomsalker, that uses a Sword-n-Board and Dueling fighting style: at level 4, has something like 18/14/16/8/8/8. AC 19 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling fighting style, has a +2 initiative bonus. At level 8, their Str is 20. At level 12, they take Shield Master, and at level 16 and 19 whatever.
These are all viable Gloomstalkers. If anything, Iron Mind is more useful for a low-Wis ranger than it is for one with 16+. Or either of the Str-based Gloomstalkers could lower their Con to provide higher wisdom (bad idea, but fine). The TLDR is, in what world does a Gloomstalker build themselves in a way that cares about their Spellcasting DC??? They're a subclass whose features are all about martial combat, and that's what a player who takes that subclass cares about.
A dex-based Gloomstalker, that uses archery or rapiers: at level 4, has something like 8/18/14/8/16/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling or a +8 to hit bonus and Archery, has a +7 initiative bonus (which doesn't really matter, unless they're an Assassin MC, which they aren't). At level 8, their dex is 20 (AC 17 in medium or light), have a +8 initiative bonus. At level 12, they have to decide whether they're going into Sharpshooter or Tough or something or going to continue to take ASI's in Wisdom... I've never yet met a Gloomstalker that was built to care about spells, so most likely, that Wisdom is staying at 16 for the rest of its life.
Edit: I made this unncessarily apples-to-oranges. This would be a better Dex-based Gloomstalker.
A dex-based Gloomstalker, that uses archery or rapiers: at level 4, has something like 8/18/16/8/14/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling or a +8 to hit bonus and Archery, has a +6 initiative bonus (which doesn't really matter, unless they're an Assassin MC, which they aren't). At level 8, their dex is 20 (AC 17 in medium or light), have a +7 initiative bonus. At level 12, they have to decide whether they're going into Sharpshooter or Tough or something or going to continue to take ASI's in Wisdom... I've never yet met a Gloomstalker that was built to care about spells, so most likely, that Wisdom is staying at 14 for the rest of its life.
A wis-based Gloomstalker, that uses Shillelagh and a quarterstaff and shield: at level 4, has something like 8/14/16/8/18/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Druidic fighting style, has a +6 initiative bonus (which again, is a pointless feature). At level 8, their Wis is 20, +7 initiative bonus. At level 12, they take PAM, and are probably never increasing their Dex any further. Shield Master could be nice at 16, though they won't be shoving. Very viable melee Gloomstalker, who is as good or better than a melee Dex-based Gloomstalker.
A str-based Gloomstalker, that uses a Greatsword or a Glaive or something and Defense fighting style: at level 4, has something like 18/14/16/8/8/8. AC 18 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and defense fighting style, has a +2 initiative bonus (which isn't any better or worse than having a +7, really). At level 8, their Str is 20. At level 12, they take GWM, and at level 16 they'll probably want to take PAM or Tough or whatever.
A str-based Gloomsalker, that uses a Sword-n-Board and Dueling fighting style: at level 4, has something like 18/14/16/8/8/8. AC 19 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling fighting style, has a +2 initiative bonus. At level 8, their Str is 20. At level 12, they take Shield Master, and at level 16 and 19 whatever.
These are all viable Gloomstalkers. If anything, Iron Mind is more useful for a low-Wis ranger than it is for one with 16+. Or either of the Str-based Gloomstalkers could lower their Con to provide higher wisdom (bad idea, but fine). The TLDR is, in what world does a Gloomstalker build themselves in a way that cares about their Spellcasting DC??? They're a subclass whose features are all about martial combat, and that's what a player who takes that subclass cares about.
Again you keep missing the point....
WIS does not only affect spellcasting and the fact you focus on that in the TLDR means you are still focusing on it for some reason.
It affects your class abilities and saves in a way that is very much noticeable. They do get spells on their subclass list that rely on DC though so its fair to point out as its one of their things they get.
The only point I wanted to make is that if you only say WIS = Spell DC you are forgetting a lot about what it affects overall on the character.
Okay, then I'll talk about it a different way: what specific abilities require wisdom, or even benefit from wisdom, and if overall that character is fine with 8 wisdom, or should have good wisdom, or must have good wisdom.
Core Ranger abilities:
Favored enemy: doesn't require or favor Wisdom any more than Intelligence, may or may not be part of your party role
Natural explorer: doesn't require or favor Wisdom any more than Intellig ence, may or may not be part of your party role
Spellcasting: plenty of useful spells that don't take an attack role or save DC, plenty others that do. Wisdom helps this, but may not be important for all rangers.
Foe Slayer: any positive wisdom modifier is a boon, but 20 is best. Has there ever been a level 20 ranger in this history of 5E? We may never know...
Verdict: You can be a Ranger with 8 wisdom.
Optional core ranger:
Tireless: a feature that provides 2-15 THP performs as 2-11 (average 6.5) with 8 Wisdom, or as 6-15 (average 10.5) with 20. 4 THP difference means wisdom helps, but isn't by any means required, to benefit from this.
Verdict: You can be an Optional Ranger with 8 wisdom.
Beast Master:
No wisdom benefit
Verdict: You can be a Beast Master with 8 wisdom.
Tasha's variant Beast Master:
Wisdom provides its to-hit bonus, Wisdom essential if Beast is going to be more than a Mount or a Tank.
Verdict: You should not be a Variant Beast Master with 8 wisdom.
Fey Wanderer:
one wis-based bonus spells, three that aren't, one that mostly isn't. Wis unimportant.
Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) bonus to social checks. any wisdom is fine, but still works with 8, and this isn't combat relevent and may not be your essential party role.
Beguiling twist first half doesn't need wisdom, and is arguably more helpful for a character that has low wisdom.
Beguiling twist second half needs wisdom for useful DC, but whether that's an often-used feature depends on whether you're casting such spells yourself or have a party member who is prone to such spells, you might be in this subclass more for the easy bonus damage than for that.
Misty Wanderer provides extra Misty Steps, more wisdom is more uses but even one is nice.
Verdict: You can be a Fey Wanderer with 8 wisdom, though the beguiling twist second half has potential to become a core feature in a party that casts a lot of charm and fear spells on enemies (but it won't come up often enough waiting on enemies to do it to you).
Gloom Stalker:
one wis-based bonus spell, four that aren't or mostly aren't. Wis unimportant.
Wisdom bonus (no minimum) to Initiative checks, which is entirely irrelevent to overall combat effectiveness. Ignore this, nobody takes this subclass for this feature other than Assassins, and no one plays assassins.
Verdict: You can be a Gloomstalker with 8 wisdom.
Horizon Walker:
one wis-based bonus spell, four that aren't. Wis unimportant.
Verdict: You can be a Horizon Walker with 8 wisdom.
Hunter:
No wisdom features.
Verdict: You can be a Hunter with 8 wisdom.
MonsterSlayer:
three wis-based bonus spells, one that isn't, one that partiall isn't. Wis probably important for most of those.
Hunter's sense is Wis times per day, but still minimum 1, and isn't really an "important" ability in most combats.
Magic User's nemesis needs a good Wis DC to be useful.
Verdict: In a low tier game, wisdom is only nice, but if you're playing in T3 and beyond you picked this subclass to use its wisdom based spells and features.
Swarmkeeper
two of its three basic effects disregard wisdom, but the third has a Wis-based DC and is quite good, and gets better in T3.
three wis-based spells, three without. Wis is important for these spells.
Verdict: there are enough good swarmkeeper features at all levels that don't need wisdom that an 8 wis swarmkeeper is totally viable. A high-wis swarmkeeper has a few extra tricks though.
So at the end of the day... Swarmkeepers and low-level Monster Slayers benefit from wisdom, but don't need it. A Fey Wanderer's need for wisdom depends on whether they have a dedicated bard or enchanter-type caster in the party, because it probably isn't them themself. Tasha's variant Beastmasters and high-level Monster Slayers properly need Wisdom. But basic ranger kits, optional Tasha's features, core Beast Masters, Fey Wanderers in a party that doesn't cast charm or fear spells on enemies often, Gloom Stalkers, Horizon walkers, and Hunters do not need wisdom hardly at all.
I would not say that anything remotely approaching "most" rangers need a good wisdom. I would say instead that most players play a ranger to get Hunter's Mark and some kind of bonus damage buff in combat, and that function of rangers is largely agnostic towards wisdom and spell save DC. In fact, most rangers are probably actually multiclass characters, that only have a 13 or 14 in wisdom to allow them into the class for a 3 level dip.
Okay, then I'll talk about it a different way: what specific abilities require wisdom, or even benefit from wisdom, and if overall that character is fine with 8 wisdom, or should have good wisdom, or must have good wisdom.
Core Ranger abilities:
Favored enemy: doesn't require or favor Wisdom any more than Intelligence, may or may not be part of your party role
Natural explorer: doesn't require or favor Wisdom any more than Intellig ence, may or may not be part of your party role
Spellcasting: plenty of useful spells that don't take an attack role or save DC, plenty others that do. Wisdom helps this, but may not be important for all rangers.
Foe Slayer: any positive wisdom modifier is a boon, but 20 is best. Has there ever been a level 20 ranger in this history of 5E? We may never know...
Verdict: You can be a Ranger with 8 wisdom.
Optional core ranger:
Tireless: a feature that provides 2-15 THP performs as 2-11 (average 6.5) with 8 Wisdom, or as 6-15 (average 10.5) with 20. 4 THP difference means wisdom helps, but isn't by any means required, to benefit from this.
Verdict: You can be an Optional Ranger with 8 wisdom.
Beast Master:
No wisdom benefit
Verdict: You can be a Beast Master with 8 wisdom.
Tasha's variant Beast Master:
Wisdom provides its to-hit bonus, Wisdom essential if Beast is going to be more than a Mount or a Tank.
Verdict: You should not be a Variant Beast Master with 8 wisdom.
Fey Wanderer:
one wis-based bonus spells, three that aren't, one that mostly isn't. Wis unimportant.
Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) bonus to social checks. any wisdom is fine, but still works with 8, and this isn't combat relevent and may not be your essential party role.
Beguiling twist first half doesn't need wisdom, and is arguably more helpful for a character that has low wisdom.
Beguiling twist second half needs wisdom for useful DC, but whether that's an often-used feature depends on whether you're casting such spells yourself or have a party member who is prone to such spells, you might be in this subclass more for the easy bonus damage than for that.
Misty Wanderer provides extra Misty Steps, more wisdom is more uses but even one is nice.
Verdict: You can be a Fey Wanderer with 8 wisdom, though the beguiling twist second half has potential to become a core feature in a party that casts a lot of charm and fear spells on enemies (but it won't come up often enough waiting on enemies to do it to you).
Gloom Stalker:
one wis-based bonus spell, four that aren't or mostly aren't. Wis unimportant.
Wisdom bonus (no minimum) to Initiative checks, which is entirely irrelevent to overall combat effectiveness. Ignore this, nobody takes this subclass for this feature other than Assassins, and no one plays assassins.
Verdict: You can be a Gloomstalker with 8 wisdom.
Horizon Walker:
one wis-based bonus spell, four that aren't. Wis unimportant.
Verdict: You can be a Horizon Walker with 8 wisdom.
Hunter:
No wisdom features.
Verdict: You can be a Hunter with 8 wisdom.
MonsterSlayer:
three wis-based bonus spells, one that isn't, one that partiall isn't. Wis probably important for most of those.
Hunter's sense is Wis times per day, but still minimum 1, and isn't really an "important" ability in most combats.
Magic User's nemesis needs a good Wis DC to be useful.
Verdict: In a low tier game, wisdom is only nice, but if you're playing in T3 and beyond you picked this subclass to use its wisdom based spells and features.
Swarmkeeper
two of its three basic effects disregard wisdom, but the third has a Wis-based DC and is quite good, and gets better in T3.
three wis-based spells, three without. Wis is important for these spells.
Verdict: there are enough good swarmkeeper features at all levels that don't need wisdom that an 8 wis swarmkeeper is totally viable. A high-wis swarmkeeper has a few extra tricks though.
So at the end of the day... Swarmkeepers and low-level Monster Slayers benefit from wisdom, but don't need it. A Fey Wanderer's need for wisdom depends on whether they have a dedicated bard or enchanter-type caster in the party, because it probably isn't them themself. Tasha's variant Beastmasters and high-level Monster Slayers properly need Wisdom. But basic ranger kits, optional Tasha's features, core Beast Masters, Fey Wanderers in a party that doesn't cast charm or fear spells on enemies often, Gloom Stalkers, Horizon walkers, and Hunters do not need wisdom hardly at all.
I would not say that anything remotely approaching "most" rangers need a good wisdom. I would say instead that most players play a ranger to get Hunter's Mark and some kind of bonus damage buff in combat, and that function of rangers is largely agnostic towards wisdom and spell save DC. In fact, most rangers are probably actually multiclass characters, that only have a 13 or 14 in wisdom to allow them into the class for a 3 level dip.
Hard disagree on gloom stalker.
And I already said hunter and horizon are the best for STR builds.
So you didn't really add much to the conversation.
The rest I don't agree with your points at all.... Why pick a subclass you don't get hardly any of the benefits from with a low WIS? Makes no logical sense.
With the exception of the Green subclasses, I disagree that there any subclasses that you would get “hardly any” benefit from or few features from with low Wis. An 8 wis swarmkeeper still can deal 1d6 piercing on a hit or shift 5 once per round with no action economy (very strong), fly (very strong), and teleport/mitigate damage. That’s not “hardly any” benefit, even for a subclass that I DO recommend Wisdom for… and the other non-green subclasses give as much or more to low-Wis builds.
Sorry you feel that disagreeing with you doesn’t add much to the discussion, hopefully other readers may feel differently.
With point buy, 15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8 is completely doable. With the standard array, we're probably looking at the 14 to 12 in wis, whether you are doing a str or a dex build. With appropriate racials, you can make a wis, dex, or str ranger and still have decent con and not terrible wis stats. Some of this has gone to the range of hyperbole.
With point buy, 15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8 is completely doable. With the standard array, we're probably looking at the 14 to 12 in wis, whether you are doing a str or a dex buiid. With appropriate racials, you can make a wis, dex, or str ranger and still have decent con and not terrible wis stats. Some of this has gone to the range of hyperbole.
Yeah it works with the right race OR if your DM does floating ASI.....I said this before.
I even gave examples (Bugbear) and said it would be fun.
What I said is silly is the 8 wisdom on certain subclasses which still makes 0 sense.
With point buy, 15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8 is completely doable. With the standard array, we're probably looking at the 14 to 12 in wis, whether you are doing a str or a dex build. With appropriate racials, you can make a wis, dex, or str ranger and still have decent con and not terrible wis stats. Some of this has gone to the range of hyperbole.
If you put the 15's into, say, strength and wisdom, you're not getting your full AC potential (med armor) and your con is only a +1 bonus. Half-elf is worth considering for classes and builds that tax your ability scores. Getting 4 points to spread around goes a long way. Especially when points added over 13 are twice as costly.
How do people build paladins then? Or Eldritch knights? Or really any class whose primary stat is not dex? Because it seems to me you could follow that example for a STR ranger.
How do people build paladins then? Or Eldritch knights? Or really any class whose primary stat is not dex? Because it seems to me you could follow that example for a STR ranger.
STR based Paladins and Eldritch Knights do not need 14 DEX for armor purposes.
A little note about Fey Wanderers, their Summon Fey uses your spellcasting modifier to hit so I would say that Wisdom is quite important on that subclass seeing as they have the ability to cast that spell without concentration at level 11.
Dont you get climbing speed with Deft Explorer by level 6? This would eliminate the need of STR or Athletics.
STR is kind of hard to make it viable for Rangers because of medium armor and the need of DEX 14. An alternative solution, as vHuman or Custom Lineage, would be Heavily Armored as your initial free feat, then you can completely dump DEX.
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Well, even if you are talking about a Dex build, you're still looking at 2 ASIs to get dex to 20 (unless you stack your starting bonuses, and then it is still 1), so you only have 2 more. You might get a +5 to wis at 19 *if* you don't take a single feat. You're more likely looking at a +2 or+3 at the end of the game. 1 vs 2 or 3.... isn't quite the same comparison.
It is all style. There is no wrong answer. If you want to dump wis, you do need to think about your future choices, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.
You can easily get 3 uses at level 1 vs 1 use tho is my point
3 vs. 1 is a big difference IMO and a DC difference of 2 is pretty big as well but that's my opinion again.
But I agree you can make anything work it's just about trade off.
For most subclasses, you're probably better off dumping DEX and being a Tortle than you are dumping WIS. The only subclass I'd add to your list (Hunters have no direct interaction with Dex or Wis unless they pick the L7 buff to some WIS saves and the L15 buff to some DEX saves, and Horizon Walkers only care about WIS for the truly excellent Banishment spell) would be the PHB BM, which has no subclass abilities directly reliant on WIS. All of the others reward your WIS score directly, to varying degrees.
Medium armor proficiency on Rangers is so.... weird, given that they need DEX to multiclass, and certainly their original ability set strongly encouraged Stealth as a skill to lean into (what's a Ranger in Half-plate supposed to do with PHB HIPS?). And while their Fighting Style choices include Defense, which is the actual best FS for sword-and-board, the evidence is that WOTC didn't intend that, what with cutting off their access to Protection. I struggle to understand how their initial playtesting suggested Rangers being proficient in medium armor and shields lent itself to Rangers being more fun and/or balanced. Much like with Druids, it'd make a lot more sense for them to get the Monk version of Unarmored Defense, if anything.
All Gloomstalker lose is 1 or 2 to their initiative bonus, nbd at all. “A subclass feature references wisdom” is not the same as “a subclass NEEDS wisdom” in all contexts.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Actually you would loose about 8 overall assuming max WIS and DEX....
You will never max DEX with a STR build and if you have a negative WIS you are looking at a +2 to initiative vs a +10 (+5 DEX and +5 WIS).
Granted thats at the extreme end but a huge difference considering a feat is a worth +5.
On average you are looking at more like +5 from DEX and +3 from WIS so a +8 vs a +2 so thats a big difference IMO.
Why would you assume max a Dex and Wis? That’s level 16…
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So level 6 then...I was just showing the extreme end and even called that out.
Level 6: Dex Build
DEX: +4
WIS: +3
Total = +7
Level 6: STR Build
DEX: +2
WIS: +1 (or +0 if you dump as you suggest)
Total: +3 or +2 if you dump.
So no not 2 or 3 even then....its 4 or 5 different.
I'm not sure what you're comparing, here. In this post you mention going Str/Dex/Con - are you comparing to Wis 8? If we're comparing Wis 14 to Wis 8, that's a gap of 3, not 1 or 2. The gap is larger - 4 - for Wis 16 (which a 1/1/1 or 2/1/1 race can start at with no real concerns, and of course TCL may well end up there at L4 or L8). Regardless of the gap size, a Gloom Stalker will suffer the gap for poor Wisdom to:
Plus the core Ranger abilities which rely on Wisdom - if you take the Tasha's replacements, which reduce overall emphasis on Wisdom, that'll primarily impact your L10 THP, with a very minor interaction with Insight (since Rangers get 2 bonus languages).
Here are
threefour Gloomstalkers:A dex-based Gloomstalker, that uses archery or rapiers: at level 4, has something like 8/18/14/8/16/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling or a +8 to hit bonus and Archery, has a +7 initiative bonus (which doesn't really matter, unless they're an Assassin MC, which they aren't). At level 8, their dex is 20 (AC 17 in medium or light), have a +8 initiative bonus. At level 12, they have to decide whether they're going into Sharpshooter or Tough or something or going to continue to take ASI's in Wisdom... I've never yet met a Gloomstalker that was built to care about spells, so most likely, that Wisdom is staying at 16 for the rest of its life.Edit: I made this unncessarily apples-to-oranges. This would be a better Dex-based Gloomstalker.
A dex-based Gloomstalker, that uses archery or rapiers: at level 4, has something like 8/18/16/8/14/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling or a +8 to hit bonus and Archery, has a +6 initiative bonus (which doesn't really matter, unless they're an Assassin MC, which they aren't). At level 8, their dex is 20 (AC 17 in medium or light), have a +7 initiative bonus. At level 12, they have to decide whether they're going into Sharpshooter or Tough or something or going to continue to take ASI's in Wisdom... I've never yet met a Gloomstalker that was built to care about spells, so most likely, that Wisdom is staying at 14 for the rest of its life.
A wis-based Gloomstalker, that uses Shillelagh and a quarterstaff and shield: at level 4, has something like 8/14/16/8/18/8. AC 17 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Druidic fighting style, has a +6 initiative bonus (which again, is a pointless feature). At level 8, their Wis is 20, +7 initiative bonus. At level 12, they take PAM, and are probably never increasing their Dex any further. Shield Master could be nice at 16, though they won't be shoving. Very viable melee Gloomstalker, who is as good or better than a melee Dex-based Gloomstalker.
A str-based Gloomstalker, that uses a Greatsword or a Glaive or something and Defense fighting style: at level 4, has something like 18/14/16/8/8/8. AC 18 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and defense fighting style, has a +2 initiative bonus (which isn't any better or worse than having a +7, really). At level 8, their Str is 20. At level 12, they take GWM, and at level 16 they'll probably want to take PAM or Tough or whatever.
A str-based Gloomsalker, that uses a Sword-n-Board and Dueling fighting style: at level 4, has something like 18/14/16/8/8/8. AC 19 in medium, +6 to hit bonus and Dueling fighting style, has a +2 initiative bonus. At level 8, their Str is 20. At level 12, they take Shield Master, and at level 16 and 19 whatever.
These are all viable Gloomstalkers. If anything, Iron Mind is more useful for a low-Wis ranger than it is for one with 16+. Or either of the Str-based Gloomstalkers could lower their Con to provide higher wisdom (bad idea, but fine). The TLDR is, in what world does a Gloomstalker build themselves in a way that cares about their Spellcasting DC??? They're a subclass whose features are all about martial combat, and that's what a player who takes that subclass cares about.
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Again you keep missing the point....
WIS does not only affect spellcasting and the fact you focus on that in the TLDR means you are still focusing on it for some reason.
It affects your class abilities and saves in a way that is very much noticeable. They do get spells on their subclass list that rely on DC though so its fair to point out as its one of their things they get.
The only point I wanted to make is that if you only say WIS = Spell DC you are forgetting a lot about what it affects overall on the character.
Okay, then I'll talk about it a different way: what specific abilities require wisdom, or even benefit from wisdom, and if overall that character is fine with 8 wisdom, or should have good wisdom, or must have good wisdom.
So at the end of the day... Swarmkeepers and low-level Monster Slayers benefit from wisdom, but don't need it. A Fey Wanderer's need for wisdom depends on whether they have a dedicated bard or enchanter-type caster in the party, because it probably isn't them themself. Tasha's variant Beastmasters and high-level Monster Slayers properly need Wisdom. But basic ranger kits, optional Tasha's features, core Beast Masters, Fey Wanderers in a party that doesn't cast charm or fear spells on enemies often, Gloom Stalkers, Horizon walkers, and Hunters do not need wisdom hardly at all.
I would not say that anything remotely approaching "most" rangers need a good wisdom. I would say instead that most players play a ranger to get Hunter's Mark and some kind of bonus damage buff in combat, and that function of rangers is largely agnostic towards wisdom and spell save DC. In fact, most rangers are probably actually multiclass characters, that only have a 13 or 14 in wisdom to allow them into the class for a 3 level dip.
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Hard disagree on gloom stalker.
And I already said hunter and horizon are the best for STR builds.
So you didn't really add much to the conversation.
The rest I don't agree with your points at all.... Why pick a subclass you don't get hardly any of the benefits from with a low WIS? Makes no logical sense.
With the exception of the Green subclasses, I disagree that there any subclasses that you would get “hardly any” benefit from or few features from with low Wis. An 8 wis swarmkeeper still can deal 1d6 piercing on a hit or shift 5 once per round with no action economy (very strong), fly (very strong), and teleport/mitigate damage. That’s not “hardly any” benefit, even for a subclass that I DO recommend Wisdom for… and the other non-green subclasses give as much or more to low-Wis builds.
Sorry you feel that disagreeing with you doesn’t add much to the discussion, hopefully other readers may feel differently.
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With point buy, 15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8 is completely doable. With the standard array, we're probably looking at the 14 to 12 in wis, whether you are doing a str or a dex build. With appropriate racials, you can make a wis, dex, or str ranger and still have decent con and not terrible wis stats. Some of this has gone to the range of hyperbole.
Yeah it works with the right race OR if your DM does floating ASI.....I said this before.
I even gave examples (Bugbear) and said it would be fun.
What I said is silly is the 8 wisdom on certain subclasses which still makes 0 sense.
The point being that you can probably have an OK primary stat, OK con, OK wis, and maybe even an OK dex if you go the str route.
If you put the 15's into, say, strength and wisdom, you're not getting your full AC potential (med armor) and your con is only a +1 bonus. Half-elf is worth considering for classes and builds that tax your ability scores. Getting 4 points to spread around goes a long way. Especially when points added over 13 are twice as costly.
How do people build paladins then? Or Eldritch knights? Or really any class whose primary stat is not dex? Because it seems to me you could follow that example for a STR ranger.
STR based Paladins and Eldritch Knights do not need 14 DEX for armor purposes.
A little note about Fey Wanderers, their Summon Fey uses your spellcasting modifier to hit so I would say that Wisdom is quite important on that subclass seeing as they have the ability to cast that spell without concentration at level 11.
Dont you get climbing speed with Deft Explorer by level 6? This would eliminate the need of STR or Athletics.
STR is kind of hard to make it viable for Rangers because of medium armor and the need of DEX 14. An alternative solution, as vHuman or Custom Lineage, would be Heavily Armored as your initial free feat, then you can completely dump DEX.