I am planning a character out for a campaign. The campaign is probably only going to about level 10 tops. I was thinking of going Barbarian with Ancestral Guardian Path for 6 levels to get Guardian Spirit and Spirit Shield. However I am torn between either Battle Master for maneuvers or Cavalier for Unwavering Mark. I already figured I would go with Shield Master feat. (playing a mountain dwarf, shield + war hammer) for shove and other benefits. For fighting style I have been tossing around protection vs. interception
I am interested in hearing other people's experience with either and the pros vs. cons.
I love being a tank although I can't speak from personal experience for a Barbarian/Fighter multiclass. The Ancestral Guardian barbarian seems like a very strong and efficient tank. One thing to point out for stopping at level 6 in this class and I know this hurts because of the ASI but I would consider going up to 7th level Barbarian for advantage on initiative and unable to be surprised. I cannot overstate how useful this ability is for a tank character.
I lack such an ability right now on my Paladin and nearly always landing in the latter half of initiative is rough and has proven dangerous many times. As a bonus, if you play with Tasha's optional rules, you also gain the Instinctive Pounce ability letting you move for an extra 50% of your speed as part of the same bonus action you take to rage, increasing your mobility as well. Though, if you go that far and still want the ASI, which you probably should get, you may need to go up to 8th Barb and settle for a regular 2 levels of fighter by the end of your adventure. This would still gives you pretty nice abilities but not the subclass you were hoping for. Still, something to consider.
In any case, Shield Master is an amazing feat, especially if you have the strength to back it up and it is a great offensive and defensive tool with the effect it has on DEX saves. As for fighting style, having used both, I would actually suggest you go with Defense fighting style or even dueling. Yes, I know, they are boring, but hear me out:
Interception: This one is such a missed opportunity. It is OK early on but it quickly becomes useless since its scaling is so horrible. Not to mention that it uses your reaction which you can instead use to threaten foes with attacks of opportunity or, in your case, use for Spirit Shield which is far superior. The fact that it can only be used for allies within 5 feet of you is the final nail in the coffin that both this and the Protection fighting styles share.
Protection: This one shares many of the problems that Interception faces, lack of range, uses your reaction which is most likely going to be saved on your amazing Spirit Shield. I'd say this is still better then Interception once you reach levels 5+ since making an attack possibly miss completely is much better then a simple 1d10+2 to 6 damage prevented.
Since you have Spirit Shield though, you can do this from range, saving up to 2d6 and up to 3d6 at 10th level if you ditch the multiclass idea completely. Quick comparison:
Level 6, PB of 3, Interception saves 1d10+3 or 8.5 avg dmg with a 5 ft range.
Level 6, Spirit Shield saves 2d6 or 7 avg dmg but has 30 ft range.
Level 10, PB of 4, Interception saves 1d10+4 or 9.5 avg dmg with a 5 ft range.
Level 10, Spirit Shield saves 3d6 or 10.5 avg dmg with a 30 ft range.
Hypothetical Level 14, PB of 5, Interception saves 1d10+5 or 10.5 avg dmg with a 5 ft range.
Hypothetical Level 14, Spirit Shield saves 4d6 or 14 avg dmg with a 30 ft range.
Interception can't keep up, its not a huge difference, but its there and the 30 ft range on Spirit Shield kills the other option. Also, if you're being an efficient tank, you won't actually need to use this too often since you'll be placing yourself in the way of your enemies and making them want to attack you through good positioning and through your class features such as Unwavering Mark or Reckless Attack. Nothing stops you from grabbing it early on though and switching it out once you can using the Martial Versatility optional rule from Tasha's once/if you reach Fighter 4. Having tried both myself, I quickly ditched both options and basically only consider Dueling, Defense, Blind Fighting and Superior Technique nowadays.
As I mentioned above, a much better fighting style for you would be either Dueling since you're going sword/board which Dueling perfectly works for, this will up your damage and increase your contributions round after round or, the road I took was to pick Defense and increase your AC by 1 which is also very good and will help you in your tank role by making you harder to hit by 5% which is not negligeable. Best of all, both options are passive and don't require you to use up any kind of action (read reaction) for them to take effect.
Edit: Now that I think about it, Blind Fighting could also be pretty good for your character if you feel your party won't have good ways to counter invisibility/blindness/darkness. Superior Technique could also be an option to still let you pick up one maneuver you may have been eyeing while not needing you to reach 3rd level fighter to pick up the Battle Master subclass. Notably, it would also let you still take the Cavalier subclass for Unwavering Mark but still pick up a maneuver.
Cavalier is a classic choice for a tank. But if you wanted to also exercise battlefield control, there’s an alternative to Battle Master - the Rune Knight. Between the STR check advantage from Barb and Rune Knight’s Enlarge, you can grapple opponents like crazy. A grappled opponent isn’t attacking anyone else, which is a key tank goal.
Good to know about interceptor and protector. They sound good but yea, the 5ft restriction. Spirit Shield seems superior for sure.
Superior Technique sounds pretty cool. I like your idea of pairing it with Cavalier for Unwavering Mark!
Right! Unless your allies are all going to be in melee range with you and they very well may be which would make these options a slightly better consideration but, otherwise, the option to use it at all will simply not come up. From levels 1 to 4, I think I actually had the option to use Interception twice and it was on my ally barbarian who could easily take the hit anyway. Not what I'd call a consistent ability you can use regularly.
Cavalier is a classic choice for a tank. But if you wanted to also exercise battlefield control, there’s an alternative to Battle Master - the Rune Knight. Between the STR check advantage from Barb and Rune Knight’s Enlarge, you can grapple opponents like crazy. A grappled opponent isn’t attacking anyone else, which is a key tank goal.
I didn't mention other subclasses since its OP's character after all and I don't know if Rune Knight is a good thematic fit but it is a very good subclass. Although, I wouldn't necessarily combine it with a Barbarian since some abilities overlap each other (such as the Hill Rune's resistances) and many of the runes need a bonus action or reaction, meaning you won't be able to use them until round 2 in most cases since round 1 will use your bonus action to rage and the reaction ones will contend with Spirit Shield. The Cloud and Storm runes are amazing utility for a tank though. Just not necessarily a good fit for a barb unless you don't want to get more then 2-3 barbarian levels at most since you'll definitely want to reach 7th level fighter ASAP with this subclass.
If you’re planning to play as a mostly ancestral guardian barbarian then I think the mobile feat might be a good choice. An ancestral guardian that imposes all the debuffs against an enemies attacks vs targets other than the ancestral guardian doesn’t actually make the party more tabky if that creature has an easy time attacking the barbarian. An ancestral guardian is mechanically better off landing an attack to impose that disadvantage and resistance, and then staying about 30ft away from the creature to make it choose between other party members at disadvantage/resistance or taking opportunity attacks to get to the barbarian. Because the ancestral guardian imposes disadvantage on attacks AND resistance on this attacks if they do land AND can use a reaction to further reduce that damage, every single party member is actually more tanky than the barbarian with those conditions. The Ancestral guardian is also able to more freely make use of reckless attack to increase offense and likelihood of the spirit effect if landing while becoming a less attack tube target to get to die to potential attacks of opportunity.
20ft is all you need to be able to reach an enemy, land atleast one attack, and retreat about 20ft again. Mobile cranks this up to 25ft back and forth since this stacks with your unarmored movement.
a rogue will be able to further boost your damage if you switch to a rapier for sneak attack. Depending on your party set up it might become more reliable to go mastermind to make use of a bonus action help at range to reliably generate advantage for one attack vs shield master for a feat.
I kind of like the idea of a human variant that chooses polearm master, mobile, and crusher feats though. Allows for increased offense, pole arm mechanics that replicate two weapon fighting to an extent with the potential to use a shield at the same time. The bonus action gains strength mod and rage damage bonus. A quarter staff gives the bludgeoning damage benefits for crusher. The reaction to make opportunity attacks when a creature enters your weapon range would also be mutually exclude to your barbarian reaction to reduce the damage against an ally. If a creature decides to try to attack your allies, it will do so at reduced efficacy and have that damage reduced by your reaction. If they attempt to get to you they must disengage or risk opportunity attacks to get to you from your allies and yourself.
Rune knight is definitely good and can supplement a barbarian subclass well. There may be an issue with how many bonus actions you have available though depending on the features you choose. Definitely a great dip though.
Totem Warrior Barb with Wolf Spirit Totem, Bear Totemic Attunement, and Sentinel feat makes you an excellent team player. WIth Sentinel, creatures will have difficulty leaving your reach, which in turn, gives your allies advantage on attack rolls against that creature. Due to the Bear Totemic Attunement, the enemy will have trouble attacking your allies. Oh wait, it won't even be able to get to your allies, because of the Sentinel feat. This is perfect for boss fights, as it allows you to "lock down" a single target, and prevent it from attacking the fragile spellcasters. The big takeaway is your ranged attacker allies will have advantage on attack rolls against creatures within 5 feet of you, which pairs extremely well with Sentinel. By making it difficult for the enemy to escape your melee range, your party will be able to make full use of the Wolf Totem. Using features like Feral Instinct, Instinctive Pounce, and maybe the Aggressive racial trait for Orcs, you can quickly and easily get up front and into the thick of the action, making sure all eyes, ears, and blades are on you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
I've played a few tanks, and if the goal is to be "sticky" and keep the enemies focused on you, the one that worked best for me was the Cavalier. I'd say throw in a few levels of Bear Totem Barbarian, but the Level 10 Cavalier ability is pretty sweet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am planning a character out for a campaign. The campaign is probably only going to about level 10 tops. I was thinking of going Barbarian with Ancestral Guardian Path for 6 levels to get Guardian Spirit and Spirit Shield. However I am torn between either Battle Master for maneuvers or Cavalier for Unwavering Mark. I already figured I would go with Shield Master feat. (playing a mountain dwarf, shield + war hammer) for shove and other benefits. For fighting style I have been tossing around protection vs. interception
I am interested in hearing other people's experience with either and the pros vs. cons.
I love being a tank although I can't speak from personal experience for a Barbarian/Fighter multiclass. The Ancestral Guardian barbarian seems like a very strong and efficient tank. One thing to point out for stopping at level 6 in this class and I know this hurts because of the ASI but I would consider going up to 7th level Barbarian for advantage on initiative and unable to be surprised. I cannot overstate how useful this ability is for a tank character.
I lack such an ability right now on my Paladin and nearly always landing in the latter half of initiative is rough and has proven dangerous many times. As a bonus, if you play with Tasha's optional rules, you also gain the Instinctive Pounce ability letting you move for an extra 50% of your speed as part of the same bonus action you take to rage, increasing your mobility as well. Though, if you go that far and still want the ASI, which you probably should get, you may need to go up to 8th Barb and settle for a regular 2 levels of fighter by the end of your adventure. This would still gives you pretty nice abilities but not the subclass you were hoping for. Still, something to consider.
In any case, Shield Master is an amazing feat, especially if you have the strength to back it up and it is a great offensive and defensive tool with the effect it has on DEX saves. As for fighting style, having used both, I would actually suggest you go with Defense fighting style or even dueling. Yes, I know, they are boring, but hear me out:
Since you have Spirit Shield though, you can do this from range, saving up to 2d6 and up to 3d6 at 10th level if you ditch the multiclass idea completely. Quick comparison:
Interception can't keep up, its not a huge difference, but its there and the 30 ft range on Spirit Shield kills the other option. Also, if you're being an efficient tank, you won't actually need to use this too often since you'll be placing yourself in the way of your enemies and making them want to attack you through good positioning and through your class features such as Unwavering Mark or Reckless Attack. Nothing stops you from grabbing it early on though and switching it out once you can using the Martial Versatility optional rule from Tasha's once/if you reach Fighter 4. Having tried both myself, I quickly ditched both options and basically only consider Dueling, Defense, Blind Fighting and Superior Technique nowadays.
As I mentioned above, a much better fighting style for you would be either Dueling since you're going sword/board which Dueling perfectly works for, this will up your damage and increase your contributions round after round or, the road I took was to pick Defense and increase your AC by 1 which is also very good and will help you in your tank role by making you harder to hit by 5% which is not negligeable. Best of all, both options are passive and don't require you to use up any kind of action (read reaction) for them to take effect.
Edit: Now that I think about it, Blind Fighting could also be pretty good for your character if you feel your party won't have good ways to counter invisibility/blindness/darkness. Superior Technique could also be an option to still let you pick up one maneuver you may have been eyeing while not needing you to reach 3rd level fighter to pick up the Battle Master subclass. Notably, it would also let you still take the Cavalier subclass for Unwavering Mark but still pick up a maneuver.
Thanks!
Good to know about interceptor and protector. They sound good but yea, the 5ft restriction. Spirit Shield seems superior for sure.
Superior Technique sounds pretty cool. I like your idea of pairing it with Cavalier for Unwavering Mark!
Cavalier is a classic choice for a tank. But if you wanted to also exercise battlefield control, there’s an alternative to Battle Master - the Rune Knight. Between the STR check advantage from Barb and Rune Knight’s Enlarge, you can grapple opponents like crazy. A grappled opponent isn’t attacking anyone else, which is a key tank goal.
Right! Unless your allies are all going to be in melee range with you and they very well may be which would make these options a slightly better consideration but, otherwise, the option to use it at all will simply not come up. From levels 1 to 4, I think I actually had the option to use Interception twice and it was on my ally barbarian who could easily take the hit anyway. Not what I'd call a consistent ability you can use regularly.
I didn't mention other subclasses since its OP's character after all and I don't know if Rune Knight is a good thematic fit but it is a very good subclass. Although, I wouldn't necessarily combine it with a Barbarian since some abilities overlap each other (such as the Hill Rune's resistances) and many of the runes need a bonus action or reaction, meaning you won't be able to use them until round 2 in most cases since round 1 will use your bonus action to rage and the reaction ones will contend with Spirit Shield. The Cloud and Storm runes are amazing utility for a tank though. Just not necessarily a good fit for a barb unless you don't want to get more then 2-3 barbarian levels at most since you'll definitely want to reach 7th level fighter ASAP with this subclass.
If you’re planning to play as a mostly ancestral guardian barbarian then I think the mobile feat might be a good choice. An ancestral guardian that imposes all the debuffs against an enemies attacks vs targets other than the ancestral guardian doesn’t actually make the party more tabky if that creature has an easy time attacking the barbarian. An ancestral guardian is mechanically better off landing an attack to impose that disadvantage and resistance, and then staying about 30ft away from the creature to make it choose between other party members at disadvantage/resistance or taking opportunity attacks to get to the barbarian. Because the ancestral guardian imposes disadvantage on attacks AND resistance on this attacks if they do land AND can use a reaction to further reduce that damage, every single party member is actually more tanky than the barbarian with those conditions. The Ancestral guardian is also able to more freely make use of reckless attack to increase offense and likelihood of the spirit effect if landing while becoming a less attack tube target to get to die to potential attacks of opportunity.
20ft is all you need to be able to reach an enemy, land atleast one attack, and retreat about 20ft again. Mobile cranks this up to 25ft back and forth since this stacks with your unarmored movement.
a rogue will be able to further boost your damage if you switch to a rapier for sneak attack. Depending on your party set up it might become more reliable to go mastermind to make use of a bonus action help at range to reliably generate advantage for one attack vs shield master for a feat.
I kind of like the idea of a human variant that chooses polearm master, mobile, and crusher feats though. Allows for increased offense, pole arm mechanics that replicate two weapon fighting to an extent with the potential to use a shield at the same time. The bonus action gains strength mod and rage damage bonus. A quarter staff gives the bludgeoning damage benefits for crusher. The reaction to make opportunity attacks when a creature enters your weapon range would also be mutually exclude to your barbarian reaction to reduce the damage against an ally. If a creature decides to try to attack your allies, it will do so at reduced efficacy and have that damage reduced by your reaction. If they attempt to get to you they must disengage or risk opportunity attacks to get to you from your allies and yourself.
All good! I had thought about Rune Knight before since it sounded pretty kick ass with the various, rune abilities and Giant's Might.
Rune knight is definitely good and can supplement a barbarian subclass well. There may be an issue with how many bonus actions you have available though depending on the features you choose. Definitely a great dip though.
I like Bobbybakers’s suggestion of Mobile and PAM, though I might start with PAM. Reach could be very helpful with Ancestral Guardians.
Totem Warrior Barb with Wolf Spirit Totem, Bear Totemic Attunement, and Sentinel feat makes you an excellent team player. WIth Sentinel, creatures will have difficulty leaving your reach, which in turn, gives your allies advantage on attack rolls against that creature. Due to the Bear Totemic Attunement, the enemy will have trouble attacking your allies. Oh wait, it won't even be able to get to your allies, because of the Sentinel feat. This is perfect for boss fights, as it allows you to "lock down" a single target, and prevent it from attacking the fragile spellcasters. The big takeaway is your ranged attacker allies will have advantage on attack rolls against creatures within 5 feet of you, which pairs extremely well with Sentinel. By making it difficult for the enemy to escape your melee range, your party will be able to make full use of the Wolf Totem. Using features like Feral Instinct, Instinctive Pounce, and maybe the Aggressive racial trait for Orcs, you can quickly and easily get up front and into the thick of the action, making sure all eyes, ears, and blades are on you.
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
I've played a few tanks, and if the goal is to be "sticky" and keep the enemies focused on you, the one that worked best for me was the Cavalier. I'd say throw in a few levels of Bear Totem Barbarian, but the Level 10 Cavalier ability is pretty sweet.