I am an oath of Vengance paladin. I am the front line tank. I have a "co tank" of a forge cleric, then the rest of my party is ranged
Currently stats are 16 str, 16 con, 14 cha, 12 wis, 10 intel, and 8 dex. I'm in full plate with 22 AC because of items and buffs. I also have the shield master feat as I use a longsword and shield almost exclusively. Fighting style is Dueling so I can do a little more consistent damage without having to burn spellslots on smite, so they can be used for CC.
I am trying to decide what to do for my level 8 ability score increase. My options I am thinking about are...increasing my Cha to 16 so my CC spells are better and my aura gives more for saves. Increase my con to 18 for more health...
Or I could take a feat. The 2 I am looking at are Heavy Armor Master or Tough
It is hard to argue with the charisma boost...going from +2 to +3 on all your charisma based stuff is pretty great. But, just to have the full discussion, let's look more closely at the other options you mentioned.
Heavy Armor Master:
Does your GM tend to pit you guys against a lot of smaller enemies or one big enemy (hoard of Kobolds or 1 dragon)?
Heavy Armor Master really returns dividends if you are taking a lot of small attacks. Reducing 4 attacks that deal 6 damage each as opposed to 1 attack that deals 24 damage for example.
Tough:
Right now Tough would give you another 16 HP...not bad (none of these options are bad), but realistically that keeps you standing one more round maybe?
Boost Con:
This gives you a 8 HP bump and a +1 to your con save. Honestly, probably the weakest of the options...If you want more HP take tough...if you want more saves bump your CHA. This is doing both, but in a much weaker way.
Some other options not mentioned:
Sentinel:
Sentinel is great when you have squishies or ranged artilery in your party. Without it the bad guys can run past you and yeah they will be punished but they still get to go hurt what you are trying to protect. With Sentinel you can actually hold the line.
Alert:
If you are the tank of the party, not being surprise able and being able to go first to get yourself into position if combat does start unexpectedly is pretty nice.
Gift of the Metallic Dragon:
This new feat is beautiful with just the perfect amount of flavor and the protective wings feature is an excellent bonus trick for a tanky defender type character.
Slasher:
Again useful for if you are wanting to start speccing into battlefield control/hold the line style of combat.
I have probably given you even more to think about...
When it comes down to it I would say the CHA bump is mechanically the best...but the game is not about making the mechanically best decisions...it is about playing and having fun. Do any of the feats particularly fit your character's style or story? They might give a nice bit of flavor.
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I get hit with big attacks most of the time so I dont think I'm gonna go heavy armor master. As you said the con buff wouldn't be much health compared to tough so I wont increase con. Gift of the dragon doesnt make sense for my character story wise. Havent had issues with surprise so no alert. I looked at sentinel but because I have shieldmaster for a reaction, and a couple magic items that use reactions, I dont really want to add another reaction based ability.
So...re reading slasher, it looks really interesting and could be an option for some battlefield control. Tough would be the good option if I wanted more health. Then of course the Charisma boost for more spell DC and saves.
I think I am leaning towards the Cha boost because it will allow me to land my CC spells better and give me better saves.
I get hit with big attacks most of the time so I dont think I'm gonna go heavy armor master. As you said the con buff wouldn't be much health compared to tough so I wont increase con. Gift of the dragon doesnt make sense for my character story wise. Havent had issues with surprise so no alert. I looked at sentinel but because I have shieldmaster for a reaction, and a couple magic items that use reactions, I dont really want to add another reaction based ability.
So...re reading slasher, it looks really interesting and could be an option for some battlefield control. Tough would be the good option if I wanted more health. Then of course the Charisma boost for more spell DC and saves.
I think I am leaning towards the Cha boost because it will allow me to land my CC spells better and give me better saves.
Next question is my fighting style. Thoughts?
Defense Fighting Style is probably your best bet since you are the frontline tank. +1 AC no questions asked is solid if not spectacular. Blessed Warrior is also nice as cantrips are welcome for a class that normally does not get any.
I get hit with big attacks most of the time so I dont think I'm gonna go heavy armor master. As you said the con buff wouldn't be much health compared to tough so I wont increase con. Gift of the dragon doesnt make sense for my character story wise. Havent had issues with surprise so no alert. I looked at sentinel but because I have shieldmaster for a reaction, and a couple magic items that use reactions, I dont really want to add another reaction based ability.
So...re reading slasher, it looks really interesting and could be an option for some battlefield control. Tough would be the good option if I wanted more health. Then of course the Charisma boost for more spell DC and saves.
I think I am leaning towards the Cha boost because it will allow me to land my CC spells better and give me better saves.
Next question is my fighting style. Thoughts?
Defense Fighting Style is probably your best bet since you are the frontline tank. +1 AC no questions asked is solid if not spectacular. Blessed Warrior is also nice as cantrips are welcome for a class that normally does not get any.
Was going to echo this thought, honestly, since you had sorted that the Cha boost was likely best. I agree, boosting your casting stats at this stage is likely best. When I was reading through the fighting styles, I almost felt like the Blessed Warrior feels pretty potent, depending on your style and role. I agree you would likely see a benefit to either Defensive or Blessed, so maybe a coin flip lol.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I get hit with big attacks most of the time so I dont think I'm gonna go heavy armor master. As you said the con buff wouldn't be much health compared to tough so I wont increase con. Gift of the dragon doesnt make sense for my character story wise. Havent had issues with surprise so no alert. I looked at sentinel but because I have shieldmaster for a reaction, and a couple magic items that use reactions, I dont really want to add another reaction based ability.
So...re reading slasher, it looks really interesting and could be an option for some battlefield control. Tough would be the good option if I wanted more health. Then of course the Charisma boost for more spell DC and saves.
I think I am leaning towards the Cha boost because it will allow me to land my CC spells better and give me better saves.
Next question is my fighting style. Thoughts?
Defense Fighting Style is probably your best bet since you are the frontline tank. +1 AC no questions asked is solid if not spectacular. Blessed Warrior is also nice as cantrips are welcome for a class that normally does not get any.
Was going to echo this thought, honestly, since you had sorted that the Cha boost was likely best. I agree, boosting your casting stats at this stage is likely best. When I was reading through the fighting styles, I almost felt like the Blessed Warrior feels pretty potent, depending on your style and role. I agree you would likely see a benefit to either Defensive or Blessed, so maybe a coin flip lol.
I'm liking Blessed Warrior because it's more active than defense. And now the question is what cantrips to pick. I'm almost guaranteed to take word of radiance. But what else to take...
I get hit with big attacks most of the time so I dont think I'm gonna go heavy armor master. As you said the con buff wouldn't be much health compared to tough so I wont increase con. Gift of the dragon doesnt make sense for my character story wise. Havent had issues with surprise so no alert. I looked at sentinel but because I have shieldmaster for a reaction, and a couple magic items that use reactions, I dont really want to add another reaction based ability.
So...re reading slasher, it looks really interesting and could be an option for some battlefield control. Tough would be the good option if I wanted more health. Then of course the Charisma boost for more spell DC and saves.
I think I am leaning towards the Cha boost because it will allow me to land my CC spells better and give me better saves.
Next question is my fighting style. Thoughts?
Defense Fighting Style is probably your best bet since you are the frontline tank. +1 AC no questions asked is solid if not spectacular. Blessed Warrior is also nice as cantrips are welcome for a class that normally does not get any.
Was going to echo this thought, honestly, since you had sorted that the Cha boost was likely best. I agree, boosting your casting stats at this stage is likely best. When I was reading through the fighting styles, I almost felt like the Blessed Warrior feels pretty potent, depending on your style and role. I agree you would likely see a benefit to either Defensive or Blessed, so maybe a coin flip lol.
I'm liking Blessed Warrior because it's more active than defense. And now the question is what cantrips to pick. I'm almost guaranteed to take word of radiance. But what else to take...
Maybe a utility cantrip that your Cleric team mate did not pick. Possibly something like Mending or Thaumaturgy.
I wouldn't bother with word of radiance. Sacred flame is way better as it's the only spell that ignores all cover and gives the paladin a way to attack from a distance, much better than chucking javelins.
The other cantrip should likely be guidance. It's just so good with what it offers. Or light if you lack dark vision.
I wouldn't bother with word of radiance. Sacred flame is way better as it's the only spell that ignores all cover and gives the paladin a way to attack from a distance, much better than chucking javelins.
The other cantrip should likely be guidance. It's just so good with what it offers. Or light if you lack dark vision.
Guidance is always good. Sacred Flame is better than no ranged attack, but not exactly great that it targets DEX for their save. CON and DEX are two of the worst ability scores to target, by and large. Seems like creatures make it quite often.
I wouldn't bother with word of radiance. Sacred flame is way better as it's the only spell that ignores all cover and gives the paladin a way to attack from a distance, much better than chucking javelins.
The other cantrip should likely be guidance. It's just so good with what it offers. Or light if you lack dark vision.
Guidance is always good. Sacred Flame is better than no ranged attack, but not exactly great that it targets DEX for their save. CON and DEX are two of the worst ability scores to target, by and large. Seems like creatures make it quite often.
Not exactly. DEX is actually a great save to target. Very few creatures have proficiency and you usually can predict enemies who are more or less agile. When you approach higher levels, DEX gets better than WIS, since lots of creatures usually have WIS save prof.
Some examples:
- Zombies (!) - Adult Dragons have higher WIS than DEX. Wyrmlings and Young Dragons have the same save score for both stats. - Chimera - Dire Troll - Beholder - Most Giants
I believe you can find reliable sources over the internet, but my personal view on saves to target goes from better to worst like this: CHA > INT > DEX > WIS > STR > CON.
I wouldn't bother with word of radiance. Sacred flame is way better as it's the only spell that ignores all cover and gives the paladin a way to attack from a distance, much better than chucking javelins.
The other cantrip should likely be guidance. It's just so good with what it offers. Or light if you lack dark vision.
My Thought on Word of Radiance is that when i am surrounded, I can use it to hit multiple enemies at once.
More often than not, you'll find you're better off attacking one enemy and focusing all your damage on them rather than spreading it around via AoE cantrips.
Sure, you could do potentially 16d6 damage if you're totally surrounded. But, if you think about it, how often would that even happen? Pretty much never. So we'll never see 16d6s. How often would your opponent fail a con save, which is undoubtedly the worst save to target? Less than half might fail.
More likely is being surrounded by three enemies and having two succeed on their save, and that's with CHA that's been keeping pace with the game. What was originally going to be 6d6 turns into 2d6 on one target. You might as well have attacked twice with your sword for 2d8+6 damage total damage.
At least with sacred flame you use it when you otherwise wouldn't have attacked at all. Now THAT is a common enough scenario to warrant considering it, and you essentially solve one of paladin's greatest weaknesses.
More often than not, you'll find you're better off attacking one enemy and focusing all your damage on them rather than spreading it around via AoE cantrips.
Sure, you could do potentially 16d6 damage if you're totally surrounded. But, if you think about it, how often would that even happen? Pretty much never. So we'll never see 16d6s. How often would your opponent fail a con save, which is undoubtedly the worst save to target? Less than half might fail.
More likely is being surrounded by three enemies and having two succeed on their save, and that's with CHA that's been keeping pace with the game. What was originally going to be 6d6 turns into 2d6 on one target. You might as well have attacked twice with your sword for 2d8+6 damage total damage.
At least with sacred flame you use it when you otherwise wouldn't have attacked at all. Now THAT is a common enough scenario to warrant considering it, and you essentially solve one of paladin's greatest weaknesses.
You know, I had never noticed just how few Cleric Cantrips there are compared to some of the other classes.
Anyway, if I was playing a Paladin and got the opportunity for two Cleric Cantrips, I would go for Toll the Dead and Guidance.
Toll the Dead calls for a WIS save, which Ir0nSoul pointed out is more resisted than you might think, but I just love the tactic of the spell dealing more damage against enemies that are already damaged. You don't get a lot of ranged attacks that deal a d12 of damage. One of the few cantrips that can compete with the damage output of your martial attacks.
And Guidance, of course, is just a useful cantrip that will instantly get you on everyone's good side. Any time I play a character with Guidance I'm basically casting it constantly if I ever have any knowledge ahead of time that someone is about to face some kind of skill check. Resistance does the same for Saving Throws, but it's a lot harder to predict when a Saving Throw is about to come up, and you may only ever successfully use it once or twice in a whole campaign. Plus, Guidance requires Concentration, and as a Paladin you likely don't have too many Concentration spells that you would keep up between combats. You can really boost the odds on someone's success if you can give them both Guidance and the Help action. And, of course, you can also cast it on yourself just in case you want that little extra boost.
Just to complicate this a little more, you could do something like fey touched and then telekinetic, or vice versa. It puts off the cha bonus increase for a bit, but you pick up some nice utility stuff on the way.
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I am an oath of Vengance paladin. I am the front line tank. I have a "co tank" of a forge cleric, then the rest of my party is ranged
Currently stats are 16 str, 16 con, 14 cha, 12 wis, 10 intel, and 8 dex. I'm in full plate with 22 AC because of items and buffs. I also have the shield master feat as I use a longsword and shield almost exclusively. Fighting style is Dueling so I can do a little more consistent damage without having to burn spellslots on smite, so they can be used for CC.
I am trying to decide what to do for my level 8 ability score increase. My options I am thinking about are...increasing my Cha to 16 so my CC spells are better and my aura gives more for saves. Increase my con to 18 for more health...
Or I could take a feat. The 2 I am looking at are Heavy Armor Master or Tough
Thoughts from the masses?
CHA x2 is a solid choice, giving you 1 more spell prepared, better spell DC and +1 to the saves of you and nearby allies.
CHA increase without thinking too much. Mainly because your aura, it’s a +1 to all your party.
It is hard to argue with the charisma boost...going from +2 to +3 on all your charisma based stuff is pretty great. But, just to have the full discussion, let's look more closely at the other options you mentioned.
Heavy Armor Master:
Does your GM tend to pit you guys against a lot of smaller enemies or one big enemy (hoard of Kobolds or 1 dragon)?
Heavy Armor Master really returns dividends if you are taking a lot of small attacks. Reducing 4 attacks that deal 6 damage each as opposed to 1 attack that deals 24 damage for example.
Tough:
Right now Tough would give you another 16 HP...not bad (none of these options are bad), but realistically that keeps you standing one more round maybe?
Boost Con:
This gives you a 8 HP bump and a +1 to your con save. Honestly, probably the weakest of the options...If you want more HP take tough...if you want more saves bump your CHA. This is doing both, but in a much weaker way.
Some other options not mentioned:
Sentinel:
Sentinel is great when you have squishies or ranged artilery in your party. Without it the bad guys can run past you and yeah they will be punished but they still get to go hurt what you are trying to protect. With Sentinel you can actually hold the line.
Alert:
If you are the tank of the party, not being surprise able and being able to go first to get yourself into position if combat does start unexpectedly is pretty nice.
Gift of the Metallic Dragon:
This new feat is beautiful with just the perfect amount of flavor and the protective wings feature is an excellent bonus trick for a tanky defender type character.
Slasher:
Again useful for if you are wanting to start speccing into battlefield control/hold the line style of combat.
I have probably given you even more to think about...
When it comes down to it I would say the CHA bump is mechanically the best...but the game is not about making the mechanically best decisions...it is about playing and having fun. Do any of the feats particularly fit your character's style or story? They might give a nice bit of flavor.
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
Yes this has given me a lot to think about.
I get hit with big attacks most of the time so I dont think I'm gonna go heavy armor master. As you said the con buff wouldn't be much health compared to tough so I wont increase con. Gift of the dragon doesnt make sense for my character story wise. Havent had issues with surprise so no alert. I looked at sentinel but because I have shieldmaster for a reaction, and a couple magic items that use reactions, I dont really want to add another reaction based ability.
So...re reading slasher, it looks really interesting and could be an option for some battlefield control. Tough would be the good option if I wanted more health. Then of course the Charisma boost for more spell DC and saves.
I think I am leaning towards the Cha boost because it will allow me to land my CC spells better and give me better saves.
Next question is my fighting style. Thoughts?
Defense Fighting Style is probably your best bet since you are the frontline tank. +1 AC no questions asked is solid if not spectacular. Blessed Warrior is also nice as cantrips are welcome for a class that normally does not get any.
Was going to echo this thought, honestly, since you had sorted that the Cha boost was likely best. I agree, boosting your casting stats at this stage is likely best. When I was reading through the fighting styles, I almost felt like the Blessed Warrior feels pretty potent, depending on your style and role. I agree you would likely see a benefit to either Defensive or Blessed, so maybe a coin flip lol.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I'm liking Blessed Warrior because it's more active than defense. And now the question is what cantrips to pick. I'm almost guaranteed to take word of radiance. But what else to take...
Maybe a utility cantrip that your Cleric team mate did not pick. Possibly something like Mending or Thaumaturgy.
I wouldn't bother with word of radiance. Sacred flame is way better as it's the only spell that ignores all cover and gives the paladin a way to attack from a distance, much better than chucking javelins.
The other cantrip should likely be guidance. It's just so good with what it offers. Or light if you lack dark vision.
Guidance is always good. Sacred Flame is better than no ranged attack, but not exactly great that it targets DEX for their save. CON and DEX are two of the worst ability scores to target, by and large. Seems like creatures make it quite often.
Charisma for your ASI imo. Getting a +3 on all saves is very strong.
Not exactly. DEX is actually a great save to target. Very few creatures have proficiency and you usually can predict enemies who are more or less agile. When you approach higher levels, DEX gets better than WIS, since lots of creatures usually have WIS save prof.
Some examples:
- Zombies (!)
- Adult Dragons have higher WIS than DEX. Wyrmlings and Young Dragons have the same save score for both stats.
- Chimera
- Dire Troll
- Beholder
- Most Giants
I believe you can find reliable sources over the internet, but my personal view on saves to target goes from better to worst like this: CHA > INT > DEX > WIS > STR > CON.
My Thought on Word of Radiance is that when i am surrounded, I can use it to hit multiple enemies at once.
More often than not, you'll find you're better off attacking one enemy and focusing all your damage on them rather than spreading it around via AoE cantrips.
Sure, you could do potentially 16d6 damage if you're totally surrounded. But, if you think about it, how often would that even happen? Pretty much never. So we'll never see 16d6s. How often would your opponent fail a con save, which is undoubtedly the worst save to target? Less than half might fail.
More likely is being surrounded by three enemies and having two succeed on their save, and that's with CHA that's been keeping pace with the game. What was originally going to be 6d6 turns into 2d6 on one target. You might as well have attacked twice with your sword for 2d8+6 damage total damage.
At least with sacred flame you use it when you otherwise wouldn't have attacked at all. Now THAT is a common enough scenario to warrant considering it, and you essentially solve one of paladin's greatest weaknesses.
This is a good point
You know, I had never noticed just how few Cleric Cantrips there are compared to some of the other classes.
Anyway, if I was playing a Paladin and got the opportunity for two Cleric Cantrips, I would go for Toll the Dead and Guidance.
Toll the Dead calls for a WIS save, which Ir0nSoul pointed out is more resisted than you might think, but I just love the tactic of the spell dealing more damage against enemies that are already damaged. You don't get a lot of ranged attacks that deal a d12 of damage. One of the few cantrips that can compete with the damage output of your martial attacks.
And Guidance, of course, is just a useful cantrip that will instantly get you on everyone's good side. Any time I play a character with Guidance I'm basically casting it constantly if I ever have any knowledge ahead of time that someone is about to face some kind of skill check. Resistance does the same for Saving Throws, but it's a lot harder to predict when a Saving Throw is about to come up, and you may only ever successfully use it once or twice in a whole campaign. Plus, Guidance requires Concentration, and as a Paladin you likely don't have too many Concentration spells that you would keep up between combats. You can really boost the odds on someone's success if you can give them both Guidance and the Help action. And, of course, you can also cast it on yourself just in case you want that little extra boost.
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Just to complicate this a little more, you could do something like fey touched and then telekinetic, or vice versa. It puts off the cha bonus increase for a bit, but you pick up some nice utility stuff on the way.