Thanks for that info, so it is a jump of 238 (if my math is right after 1 cup of coffee) and I suspect involves multiple rolls of nat 20 to hit rolls and max die rolls for damage in a row
No, that's average damage. It's just assuming surprise, action surge, a total of 17 attacks (mostly with scorching ray), and all hits critical due to 3 levels of Rogue (Assassin) -- 7 damage per attack, doubled for critical, gives 7 * 2 * 17 = 238.
“Thanks for that info, so it is a jump of 238 (if my math is right after 1 cup of coffee) and I suspect involves multiple rolls of nat 20 to hit rolls and max die rolls for damage in a row (which if you want to geek out you could compute what is the chance of that happening, 1 in a million or more or less, I would guess it is a small chance of everything happening perfectly and generating the max result). “
Actually it’s a lot worse than that. The longest streak like that I’ve seen was 10 rolls in a row of either a Nat 20 or Nat 1 as the DM called for. The odds of that are .05 to the 10th power or about 1 in 10 billion. Getting 10 Nat 20s in a row would be the same then getting max damage each time would be in the same ballpark so your talking about a something like a 1 in a sextillion chance to get that sort of damage. Fun to figure out what it could be but you can forget it ever happening more than once so useless to actually make the build.
As for number of attacks and damage about the best I can see as being reasonable would be a L3 Kensai/L17 fighter allowing you to use a battle axe or longsword as a 2 handed Kensai weapon with 3 attacks each followed by a flurry of blows 2 open hand attacks for each of your 3 Ki points then action surge for another 3 attacks followed by a single open hand attack from martial arts, followed by the second action surge for another 3 attacks followed by another 3 martial arts open hand attacks for a total of 21 attacks in 1 round doing an average of 9*5 (D10) + 11*2(D4) + 21*7 (2d6) or 45+22+147=214 damage average in round 1 (and 21 damage every later round).
I might be reading this incorrectly as it is difficult to follow, but it reads like;
Attack 3 times with standard action, spend a ki point and bonus action Flurry of blows (total of 5 attacks).
Action surge. 3 more melee weapon attacks, followed by another martial arts attack (this also needs a bonus action but you have already used it. Action surge does not give you an extra bonus action). Not sure if you are using Flurry again as you mentioned spending all 3 ki points. So another 5 attacks bringing your total to 10 attacks.
Action surge again (but the rules for action surge explicitly prohibit using action surge twice on the same turn). 3 more melee attacks, followed by a third bonus action to flurry of blows again for an additional 2 martial arts attack. Finishing at 15 total attacks.
If you completely ignore action economy and the rules then you are getting 15 attacks (9 with your weapon and 6 with martial arts). You definitely aren’t getting 21 attacks in one round, though, your maths is way off. You seem to be suggesting that you get the bonus action martial arts attack and another 2 on top from flurry but they absolutely don’t stack by RAW, it’s either or.
But if you follow the rules then you actually get a max of 8 attacks (3 weapon, 2 martial arts flurry of blows, action surge and 3 more weapon). Thats still pretty impressive, but it’s a level 20 character. So it’s just okay and certainly not game breaking.
A straight level 20 fighter could get 9 attacks within the rules by taking 4 standard attacks, action surge for another 4, and a bonus attack from either 2 weapon fighting, pole arm master or great weapon master.
A wizard 18 / fighter 2 could cast scorching ray at 9th level for 10 attacks, action surge and cast it again at 8th level for another 9 attacks and still have their bonus action for maybe a telekinetic shove or something. And all 19 scorching rays could get the sneak attack bonus bugbear feature. 19 rays doing 4d6 damage each. That’s without any rules trickery whatsoever.
The largest number of attacks in a single turn I can come up with is 23 (2-3 levels fighter to get action surge, epic boon of high magic, cast Jim's Magic Missile twice at 9th level, then use an action point and a superiority die (from superior technique or fighter-3/battlemaster) for quick toss) but that's an overall terrible option because if you don't have advantage a high level jim's is just going to blow up in your face. Replacing that with scorching ray gets you 21.
The largest number of attacks in a single turn I can come up with is 23 (2-3 levels fighter to get action surge, epic boon of high magic, cast Jim's Magic Missile twice at 9th level, then use an action point and a superiority die (from superior technique or fighter-3/battlemaster) for quick toss)
Agreed, but that relies on getting an epic boon and also Jim’s being allowed at the table. That’s not always going to be the case though, and I was trying to do it using stuff that should be available at every table. I would have used the standard magic missile for 11 missiles, followed by 10 with action surge, and a bonus action attack or as you said use a battle master technique for 22 attacks. But alas the surprise attack feature wouldn’t trigger due to not making an attack roll.
“Thanks for that info, so it is a jump of 238 (if my math is right after 1 cup of coffee) and I suspect involves multiple rolls of nat 20 to hit rolls and max die rolls for damage in a row (which if you want to geek out you could compute what is the chance of that happening, 1 in a million or more or less, I would guess it is a small chance of everything happening perfectly and generating the max result). “
Actually it’s a lot worse than that. The longest streak like that I’ve seen was 10 rolls in a row of either a Nat 20 or Nat 1 as the DM called for. The odds of that are .05 to the 10th power or about 1 in 10 billion. Getting 10 Nat 20s in a row would be the same then getting max damage each time would be in the same ballpark so your talking about a something like a 1 in a sextillion chance to get that sort of damage. Fun to figure out what it could be but you can forget it ever happening more than once so useless to actually make the build.
As for number of attacks and damage about the best I can see as being reasonable would be a L3 Kensai/L17 fighter allowing you to use a battle axe or longsword as a 2 handed Kensai weapon with 3 attacks each followed by a flurry of blows 2 open hand attacks for each of your 3 Ki points then action surge for another 3 attacks followed by a single open hand attack from martial arts, followed by the second action surge for another 3 attacks followed by another 3 martial arts open hand attacks for a total of 21 attacks in 1 round doing an average of 9*5 (D10) + 11*2(D4) + 21*7 (2d6) or 45+22+147=214 damage average in round 1 (and 21 damage every later round).
That does seem more realistic and what I would think of off the top of my head, but I am not into all of the in's and out's of 5e.
Just to make it easy 7 damage (average of 2d6) x5 attacks=35 X2 (for action serge)=70 if they all crit then an extra 140.
Thanks for the math and 5e info
Edit after reading beardsinger post #42 my estimate is wrong and it would be less for a simple vanilla attack.
Actually they were right in correcting me it’s even less straight up - 3 attacks + 3 attacks from the action surge + 2 attacks from the bonus action FoB for 8 attacks total. If they took the unarmed fighting and don’t have weapons other than their hands then it’s D8 (4) + 2D6 (6) + SB (3?) each if they all hit for 13*8= 104 damage in round one.
I was wondering in 5e core is there an ability that lets a person using a pole arm or staff type weapon make one attack against all targets in their reach? Or am I remembering a rule from another version and or a 5e clone/flavor?
If so then a bugbears extra 5' reach and the area attack + the ambush extra dice would be an area attack against every target in a 15' radius. Sort of like a min-fireball depending on the dice and could possibly be used twice like the above proposals.
I was also thinking why would other races not have this ability or what other races should or would have this ability in the form listed and or a minor or possibly greater form? I would say any ambush style race would be a candidate for the ability not just the bugbear race. The easiest thing to do is to look up ambush predators on the net and see what types of animals it presents and then look at historical and myth information for those myth based creatures to get a list. Just off the top of my head it would be most cat races, snakes and praying mantas but that is by no means a complete list.
When creating things or new things I always ask what is this going to do and what changes am I going to make (or should make based on the change)? In this case I would say the ambush ability is a fundamental change and it could possibly apply to other areas of the game.
I was wondering in 5e core is there an ability that lets a person using a pole arm or staff type weapon make one attack against all targets in their reach? Or am I remembering a rule from another version and or a 5e clone/flavor?
Whirlwind attack existed in 3.5e as a feat. Hunter Rangers get a similar ability at level 11 but it doesn't take advantage of your reach.
I was wondering in 5e core is there an ability that lets a person using a pole arm or staff type weapon make one attack against all targets in their reach? Or am I remembering a rule from another version and or a 5e clone/flavor?
Whirlwind attack existed in 3.5e as a feat. Hunter Rangers get a similar ability at level 11 but it doesn't take advantage of your reach.
Thank you so much, I knew there was a 3.5 rule but I also thought there was one in 5e but thanks for pointing out there is not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
No, that's average damage. It's just assuming surprise, action surge, a total of 17 attacks (mostly with scorching ray), and all hits critical due to 3 levels of Rogue (Assassin) -- 7 damage per attack, doubled for critical, gives 7 * 2 * 17 = 238.
I might be reading this incorrectly as it is difficult to follow, but it reads like;
Attack 3 times with standard action, spend a ki point and bonus action Flurry of blows (total of 5 attacks).
Action surge. 3 more melee weapon attacks, followed by another martial arts attack (this also needs a bonus action but you have already used it. Action surge does not give you an extra bonus action). Not sure if you are using Flurry again as you mentioned spending all 3 ki points. So another 5 attacks bringing your total to 10 attacks.
Action surge again (but the rules for action surge explicitly prohibit using action surge twice on the same turn). 3 more melee attacks, followed by a third bonus action to flurry of blows again for an additional 2 martial arts attack. Finishing at 15 total attacks.
If you completely ignore action economy and the rules then you are getting 15 attacks (9 with your weapon and 6 with martial arts). You definitely aren’t getting 21 attacks in one round, though, your maths is way off. You seem to be suggesting that you get the bonus action martial arts attack and another 2 on top from flurry but they absolutely don’t stack by RAW, it’s either or.
But if you follow the rules then you actually get a max of 8 attacks (3 weapon, 2 martial arts flurry of blows, action surge and 3 more weapon). Thats still pretty impressive, but it’s a level 20 character. So it’s just okay and certainly not game breaking.
A straight level 20 fighter could get 9 attacks within the rules by taking 4 standard attacks, action surge for another 4, and a bonus attack from either 2 weapon fighting, pole arm master or great weapon master.
A wizard 18 / fighter 2 could cast scorching ray at 9th level for 10 attacks, action surge and cast it again at 8th level for another 9 attacks and still have their bonus action for maybe a telekinetic shove or something. And all 19 scorching rays could get the sneak attack bonus bugbear feature. 19 rays doing 4d6 damage each. That’s without any rules trickery whatsoever.
The largest number of attacks in a single turn I can come up with is 23 (2-3 levels fighter to get action surge, epic boon of high magic, cast Jim's Magic Missile twice at 9th level, then use an action point and a superiority die (from superior technique or fighter-3/battlemaster) for quick toss) but that's an overall terrible option because if you don't have advantage a high level jim's is just going to blow up in your face. Replacing that with scorching ray gets you 21.
Agreed, but that relies on getting an epic boon and also Jim’s being allowed at the table. That’s not always going to be the case though, and I was trying to do it using stuff that should be available at every table. I would have used the standard magic missile for 11 missiles, followed by 10 with action surge, and a bonus action attack or as you said use a battle master technique for 22 attacks. But alas the surprise attack feature wouldn’t trigger due to not making an attack roll.
That does seem more realistic and what I would think of off the top of my head, but I am not into all of the in's and out's of 5e.
Just to make it easy 7 damage (average of 2d6) x5 attacks=35 X2 (for action serge)=70 if they all crit then an extra 140.
Thanks for the math and 5e info
Edit after reading beardsinger post #42 my estimate is wrong and it would be less for a simple vanilla attack.
Actually they were right in correcting me it’s even less straight up - 3 attacks + 3 attacks from the action surge + 2 attacks from the bonus action FoB for 8 attacks total. If they took the unarmed fighting and don’t have weapons other than their hands then it’s D8 (4) + 2D6 (6) + SB (3?) each if they all hit for 13*8= 104 damage in round one.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I was wondering in 5e core is there an ability that lets a person using a pole arm or staff type weapon make one attack against all targets in their reach? Or am I remembering a rule from another version and or a 5e clone/flavor?
If so then a bugbears extra 5' reach and the area attack + the ambush extra dice would be an area attack against every target in a 15' radius. Sort of like a min-fireball depending on the dice and could possibly be used twice like the above proposals.
I was also thinking why would other races not have this ability or what other races should or would have this ability in the form listed and or a minor or possibly greater form? I would say any ambush style race would be a candidate for the ability not just the bugbear race. The easiest thing to do is to look up ambush predators on the net and see what types of animals it presents and then look at historical and myth information for those myth based creatures to get a list. Just off the top of my head it would be most cat races, snakes and praying mantas but that is by no means a complete list.
When creating things or new things I always ask what is this going to do and what changes am I going to make (or should make based on the change)? In this case I would say the ambush ability is a fundamental change and it could possibly apply to other areas of the game.
Whirlwind attack existed in 3.5e as a feat. Hunter Rangers get a similar ability at level 11 but it doesn't take advantage of your reach.
Thank you so much, I knew there was a 3.5 rule but I also thought there was one in 5e but thanks for pointing out there is not.