I understand that a super-optimized version of this would likely be either heavily geared towards caster or archer, maybe using other weapons/dmg cantrips, dipping multiple levels/classes, diff. races etc.
However, I specifically, RP and aesthetic-wise, want to play the character from my "Definites" below, and be this quickly-getting-around, good bowman, who casts fun spells and good at skills (I get it's somewhat MAD) .
I want to have the most optimized version possible of this, within given limits.
Don't want negative modifiers (i.e. scores under 10)
More info:
So far the best arrays I've come up with are (post racial bonuses): 10, 16, 13, 10, 12, 17 and 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16.
Some DM-approved feats that work with my char are:
Medium Armor Master
Alert
Observant
Skill Expert
Fighter Initiate (for Archery Fighting Style)
Open to other fitting "less-powerful" feats
I might be open to a 1-2 level dip, class/RP-depending.
Questions:
1. What combo of Ability Scores + Feat would you recommend to start?
I like the 1st array in that w/ a feat I can start @ 18 CHA, but same time the 2nd array allows me a nice starting CON and a WIS that's feat-boostable to 14.
I like Skill Expert and Observant as they would allow me to have that 14 WIS if I did 2nd array, SE allowing me a nice Athletics despite my 10 STR or Observ. for the cool passive scores.
Alert is awesome for setting up in combat and keeping me more survivable.
Medium Armor Master - the major reason it's on there, is I'm worried that 16 AC (Breastplate + Dex) is a bit low, and don't want Med. Armors to kill my stealth.
Fighter Initiate (for Archery Fighting Style) gives +2 attack bns to help offset the -5 from Sharpshooter feat later.
2. What would you recommend as the ASI/Feat choices going forward in level progression?
Depending on my array choice and starting feat. If 2nd array, considering Lvl 4: 18 CHA, Lvl 8: SS or 18 DEX or 20 CHA Lvl 12: Whichever I didn't take lvl 8 etc.
Elven Accuracy unfortunately banned by DM. Essentially I have a choice from the feats in the OP - I think to grab Fighter Initiate Archery FS.
So how does it work with the stats - is it 10, 15, 14, 10, 13, 17 because I'll then grab my lvl 4 and 8 ASI as a feat with a + 1 each?
What about 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16. , then 4th level 18 CHA (bards are great casters afterall), 8th level SS or Dex 18, 12th level either 20 CHA or whichever I didn't take for 8th level (dex 18 or ss) and so on?
I'd like something balanced - no sacrificing my ranged bow attack to be a super strong caster, but also not sacrificing obvious cool casting abilities to be a super sniper....
I guess doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 gives me 3 level ups to think and even if I get 18 cha @ 4th, there's still flexibility what i can do at lvl 8 etc..... though it would be nice to plot a course roughly.
Depends what you want out of each. You can go full utility / healing Bard in which cast your spellcasting stat doesn't matter that much, and it pairs really well with archery since you can shoot two arrows and then cast Healing Word as a BA (or use your BI if no one is hurt yet), spend most of your spells out of combat on things like Fly, Invisibility, Suggestion, Disguise Self, Zone of Truth.
Or in you want to play with save=or-suck spells in combat max out your CHA ASAP, and only use your 1st level feat to buff your archery as you're only using it as a replacement for when you would otherwise use a cantrip.
So it sounds like doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 and fighter initiate for archery fs works either way and gives me some time to consider, as I'm playing the campaign and seeing what works/what i like etc.
Even taking CHA 18 lvl4 still leaves things kinda open.
I dont think bards can even get Fly (except from magical secrets) can they?
What are those spells that I really want the high CHA asap for? and what are "save or suck" - sorry if that's something common i should know already. Is the high CHA for higher spell save DC and is 18 CHA low to have after say level 8-10?
So it sounds like doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 and fighter initiate for archery fs works either way and gives me some time to consider, as I'm playing the campaign and seeing what works/what i like etc.
Even taking CHA 18 lvl4 still leaves things kinda open.
I dont think bards can even get Fly (except from magical secrets) can they?
What are those spells that I really want the high CHA asap for? and what are "save or suck" - sorry if that's something common i should know already. Is the high CHA for higher spell save DC and is 18 CHA low to have after say level 8-10?
Save or Suck spells are those that have powerful effects, but if the enemy makes their saving throw, nothing happens. Some examples are Hold Person or Dominate Monster.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
The quick rule of thumb is if you have the max out your spellcasting stat by level 8 then monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+). Save-or-suck spells are those that can take an enemy completely out of the fight if they fail but don't do anything if they save, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment are typical examples. For those you want to maximize your spell DC to maximize the chance of it working and Bard gets a lot of them. But for buffing / utility spells or even damage dealing spells your spell DC doesn't matter as much.
The quick rule of thumb is if you have the max out your spellcasting stat by level 8 then monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+).
So that means to have "monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+)." I'd need to have 20 CHA by lvl 8?
Also, don't I need spell attack bonus to land damage dealing hits? (unless AOE)
The quick rule of thumb is if you have the max out your spellcasting stat by level 8 then monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+).
So that means to have "monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+)." I'd need to have 20 CHA by lvl 8?
Also, don't I need spell attack bonus to land damage dealing hits? (unless AOE)
I don't think Bards get any spells with attack rolls.
I know Valor was one of your stipulations but I think Swords bard makes a better archer. Valor and swords both get extra attack at level six however you would need to use a short bow or start with a level of fighter for CON prof, Archery FS and access to the longbow. Two of the flourishes work at range and add damage and mobility.
Valor inspirations make other players better but swords makes you better.
The only really compelling parts of valor as an archer come with the level 14 ability and the fact that you can grab a longbow at level 3. Waiting one more level for extra attack and making use of your bardic inspirations for yourself suggests swords to be a stronger choice.
Disagree, using BI on yourself is not better than using it to protect or help the rest of the party, in fact the opposite. A BI spent by the GWM Barbarian to land an attack that would have otherwise missed is much more powerful that adding 1 roll of the BI to your own damage. Valor gets extra attack at the same time that Swords does, but they also get medium armour (let's you focus on maximizing CHA first) and longbow proficiency making them a better martial than swords without losing any of their bard-ness.
Swords is better for minmaxing a solo character, but Valor is stronger for the party as a whole.
Sorry Agilemind, yes I stated they get extra attack at the same time and both get medium armor. The difference is shortbow vs longbow prof. If you really need the 2 damage and extra range starting as a fighter is a great choice. Plus action surge as caster is excellent as well.
Sorry Agilemind, yes I stated they get extra attack at the same time and both get medium armor. The difference is shortbow vs longbow prof. If you really need the 2 damage and extra range starting as a fighter is a great choice. Plus action surge as caster is excellent as well.
Oh you're right, I forgot Swords gets Med armour, it's the shield proficiency they lack but that Valor gets, which isn't relevant for an archer build. Starting fighter kills your Extra Attack, though I guess con save proficiency is decent. Action Surge isn't good on Bard until super late b/c all their good spells are concentration so no point casting two in one turn. Action Surge is only good for blaster mages - Wizard & Sorcerer - and even then you feel the pain in terms of spell progression.
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I understand that a super-optimized version of this would likely be either heavily geared towards caster or archer, maybe using other weapons/dmg cantrips, dipping multiple levels/classes, diff. races etc.
However, I specifically, RP and aesthetic-wise, want to play the character from my "Definites" below, and be this quickly-getting-around, good bowman, who casts fun spells and good at skills (I get it's somewhat MAD) .
I want to have the most optimized version possible of this, within given limits.
DM Rules:
We get 30 points for point-buy array (here's the calculator)
We start w/ a free less-powerful Feat
Starting level 1
Definites:
Playing a Half-Elf, Valor Bard, Dex-based Archer
Don't want negative modifiers (i.e. scores under 10)
More info:
So far the best arrays I've come up with are (post racial bonuses): 10, 16, 13, 10, 12, 17 and 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16.
Some DM-approved feats that work with my char are:
Medium Armor Master
Alert
Observant
Skill Expert
Fighter Initiate (for Archery Fighting Style)
Open to other fitting "less-powerful" feats
I might be open to a 1-2 level dip, class/RP-depending.
Questions:
1. What combo of Ability Scores + Feat would you recommend to start?
I like the 1st array in that w/ a feat I can start @ 18 CHA, but same time the 2nd array allows me a nice starting CON and a WIS that's feat-boostable to 14.
I like Skill Expert and Observant as they would allow me to have that 14 WIS if I did 2nd array, SE allowing me a nice Athletics despite my 10 STR or Observ. for the cool passive scores.
Alert is awesome for setting up in combat and keeping me more survivable.
Medium Armor Master - the major reason it's on there, is I'm worried that 16 AC (Breastplate + Dex) is a bit low, and don't want Med. Armors to kill my stealth.
2. What would you recommend as the ASI/Feat choices going forward in level progression?
Depending on my array choice and starting feat. If 2nd array, considering Lvl 4: 18 CHA, Lvl 8: SS or 18 DEX or 20 CHA Lvl 12: Whichever I didn't take lvl 8 etc.
My only advice - if you're a ranging full caster whose niche is moving fast, you shouldn't worry about your AC. It should safely be able to be low.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Optimized Char:
Starting Stats: 10, 15, 14, 10, 13, 17
Starting Feat: Elven Accuracy DEX (if your DM agrees)
4th level Feat: SharpShooter
8th level Feat: Fey Touched CHA for Bless, Misty Step
Play Style: Cast Faerie Fire to get Adv then rain arrows on the enemy with SS.
You can MC dip into Cleric for Bless and Fighter for Archery once you hit 5th level since you aren't casting spells that often anyway.
that's a good point, thank you, so im thinking to grab the Fighter Initiate Archery FS
Elven Accuracy unfortunately banned by DM. Essentially I have a choice from the feats in the OP - I think to grab Fighter Initiate Archery FS.
So how does it work with the stats - is it 10, 15, 14, 10, 13, 17 because I'll then grab my lvl 4 and 8 ASI as a feat with a + 1 each?
What about 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16. , then 4th level 18 CHA (bards are great casters afterall), 8th level SS or Dex 18, 12th level either 20 CHA or whichever I didn't take for 8th level (dex 18 or ss) and so on?
I'd like something balanced - no sacrificing my ranged bow attack to be a super strong caster, but also not sacrificing obvious cool casting abilities to be a super sniper....
I guess doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 gives me 3 level ups to think and even if I get 18 cha @ 4th, there's still flexibility what i can do at lvl 8 etc..... though it would be nice to plot a course roughly.
Depends what you want out of each. You can go full utility / healing Bard in which cast your spellcasting stat doesn't matter that much, and it pairs really well with archery since you can shoot two arrows and then cast Healing Word as a BA (or use your BI if no one is hurt yet), spend most of your spells out of combat on things like Fly, Invisibility, Suggestion, Disguise Self, Zone of Truth.
Or in you want to play with save=or-suck spells in combat max out your CHA ASAP, and only use your 1st level feat to buff your archery as you're only using it as a replacement for when you would otherwise use a cantrip.
So it sounds like doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 and fighter initiate for archery fs works either way and gives me some time to consider, as I'm playing the campaign and seeing what works/what i like etc.
Even taking CHA 18 lvl4 still leaves things kinda open.
I dont think bards can even get Fly (except from magical secrets) can they?
What are those spells that I really want the high CHA asap for? and what are "save or suck" - sorry if that's something common i should know already. Is the high CHA for higher spell save DC and is 18 CHA low to have after say level 8-10?
Save or Suck spells are those that have powerful effects, but if the enemy makes their saving throw, nothing happens. Some examples are Hold Person or Dominate Monster.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
ooh I see - so my save DC is 13 (AFAIK it's 8 + prof bonus + cha modifier), so say level 5, with 18 cha it'll be DC 15...
What is the minimum DC I want for my spells to be effective ?
I'm trying to figure out how to make this build work and be fun.
The quick rule of thumb is if you have the max out your spellcasting stat by level 8 then monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+). Save-or-suck spells are those that can take an enemy completely out of the fight if they fail but don't do anything if they save, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment are typical examples. For those you want to maximize your spell DC to maximize the chance of it working and Bard gets a lot of them. But for buffing / utility spells or even damage dealing spells your spell DC doesn't matter as much.
So that means to have "monsters of a CR equal to your level have approximately 50% chance to fail a save against your spell DC (ignoring magic resistance which becomes relatively common at level 10+)." I'd need to have 20 CHA by lvl 8?
Also, don't I need spell attack bonus to land damage dealing hits? (unless AOE)
I don't think Bards get any spells with attack rolls.
I know Valor was one of your stipulations but I think Swords bard makes a better archer. Valor and swords both get extra attack at level six however you would need to use a short bow or start with a level of fighter for CON prof, Archery FS and access to the longbow. Two of the flourishes work at range and add damage and mobility.
Valor inspirations make other players better but swords makes you better.
The only really compelling parts of valor as an archer come with the level 14 ability and the fact that you can grab a longbow at level 3. Waiting one more level for extra attack and making use of your bardic inspirations for yourself suggests swords to be a stronger choice.
Disagree, using BI on yourself is not better than using it to protect or help the rest of the party, in fact the opposite. A BI spent by the GWM Barbarian to land an attack that would have otherwise missed is much more powerful that adding 1 roll of the BI to your own damage. Valor gets extra attack at the same time that Swords does, but they also get medium armour (let's you focus on maximizing CHA first) and longbow proficiency making them a better martial than swords without losing any of their bard-ness.
Swords is better for minmaxing a solo character, but Valor is stronger for the party as a whole.
Sorry Agilemind, yes I stated they get extra attack at the same time and both get medium armor. The difference is shortbow vs longbow prof. If you really need the 2 damage and extra range starting as a fighter is a great choice. Plus action surge as caster is excellent as well.
Oh you're right, I forgot Swords gets Med armour, it's the shield proficiency they lack but that Valor gets, which isn't relevant for an archer build. Starting fighter kills your Extra Attack, though I guess con save proficiency is decent. Action Surge isn't good on Bard until super late b/c all their good spells are concentration so no point casting two in one turn. Action Surge is only good for blaster mages - Wizard & Sorcerer - and even then you feel the pain in terms of spell progression.