I had a player ask me if the following was possible with a Phantom Ghost Walk character.
They took the mobile feat so they had 20 feet of flying movement.
They crouched so that their height was less than 4 feet tall.
They moved 4 feet under the floor then moved 2 feet to the side (still under the floor) using Stealth to Hide.
They made their stealth check.
Then they used 4 feet of movement to return to above the floor.
They used their action to Attack. They claimed they had advantage because they were coming out of hiding so they could get their sneak attack damage.
They claimed they had successfully hidden so they had advantage on their attack.
Is this move RAWl?
The creature did not have any way to see them underneath the floor so they did break eye contact and they did move to a slightly different position while out of sight.
Note: according to the description Ghost Walk uses difficult terrain if you are going through something like a ghost would. So 4+2+4 = 10 Then 10*2=20 feet of movement.
I had a player ask me if the following was possible with a Phantom Ghost Walk character.
They took the mobile feat so they had 20 feet of flying movement.
Why would Mobile increase their flying movement? Their flying movement is not based on their character's speed thus should not be affected by Mobile. Note that Mobile does NOT say "increase all your movement speeds by 10 ft" - so it only increases your default, aka walking, speed. Mobile does not affect burrowing speeds from Wildshape, nor does it affect your fly speed from the Fly spell, so likewise does not affect your ghostwalk fly speed.
Thus they only have 10ft of fly speed, if they move into an object then that is difficult terrain so they can only move 5ft into the object/floor - at which point yes they wouldn't be visible and so could Hide. However, in order to leave the object they would need to use a Cunning Action Dash so they don't have that BA in order to Hide while in the object. If they spread it over 2 turns: move into the floor and end turn, next turn BA Hide then move out of the floor and attack then I would give them Adv on that attack for being previously Hidden. However they will take 1d10 damage for ending their turn inside the floor.
They moved 4 feet under the floor then moved 2 feet to the side (still under the floor) using Stealth to Hide.
I don't think moving 2ft would be sufficient as counting as "moving" as typically "moving" requires at least 5ft of movement to shift to a new position on a grid map. If any amount of movement counted as "moving" then why not just move 1 inch?
1. I asked the player about the 2 ft. thing. they said they just used as much movement as they had left.
2. How would your answer change if you assumed that as the DM I allowed my player to apply the Mobile Feat bonus to their flying movement?
I am looking for some clarity on hiding not moving. Is hiding under the floor as a ghost enough to actually hide? In past we have had trouble with hiding in combat. For example after much debate we finally decided that as a HOMEBREW solution going around a corner was enough to hide in combat. It doesn't matter what the RAW answer is, we made it so. Now I have a new question to try and answer. I am looking for guidance as a DM.
What is your opinion, is going under the floor and moving a little bit enough to count as hiding in combat? Ultimately my entire party will vote but if I can bring some good arguments to the table that would help me.
What you said about snapping to a grid line is interesting. Is that RAW or homebrew? I always thought you could move 1 foot if you wanted to do so. I did not think you had to move in 5 foot increments.
Anyway my question was about using Ghost Walk to hide in combat.
I guess if all you have to do is move and succeed on a stealth check. You could make a stealth check, then if you succeed, move 5 feet under the floor, then pop back up 5 feet back up in the same space. Technically you still broke eye contact and if they made their stealth check they could be considered hidden. (Those are my ideas. not my players ideas. They still think they need to move a little bit to make it legit.)
In order to hide, all that is required is to break line of sight with the creature you are hiding from, this could be behind a wall, in an area of fog, or under the floor, or simply by being invisible. You technically don't even need to move after you have hidden, you only need to move to a new hiding place after you reveal yourself by making an attack. So yes, moving into the floor would absolutely break line of sight and thus allow you to hide, and then reemerge and attack with advantage.
"What you said about snapping to a grid line is interesting. Is that RAW or homebrew? I always thought you could move 1 foot if you wanted to do so. I did not think you had to move in 5 foot increments."
If you play on a grid you have to move in 5ft increments, playing on a grid is optional. If you aren't playing on a grid, you can move as much or as little as you want - including as little as 1 inch - but to count as "moving to a new space" you need to move at least 5ft - arguably you need to move at distance equal to the space you occupy which is 5ft for Small/Medium, 10ft of Large, or 15ft for Huge, but most people just rule of thumb use 5ft b/c grids).
I should ask first why this is an issue at your table? Is this something you fear that the player will abuse? Or is this just a one time fun thing they came up with? If its the latter then no big deal let them succeed. If you feel it may be abused to give the player sneak attack every turn then I have additional comments below. (Even in fantasy and science fiction I like to keep my game more believable and realistic. fyi)
Putting myself in the shoes of anyone in the room. If I saw someone "phase" through the floor out of sight, I would likely be keeping a sharp eye on the floor all about me...
Also with the character crouching and trying to move that far that quickly as a DM I would have an issue with distance. The player cannot occupy the same square as the enemy so his math is off and would end with him in the same space. (Crouching to me would reduce his speed further, ever try and crouch and run?)
20' movement in difficult terrain effectively limits total distance to 10'. Dropping into the floor should take their full move. Moving past the opponent should take another 10'. This means that a full turn with 2 moves gets them into the floor and allows them to pass by the opponent but they are still in the floor. (Note that the player cannot see anything while in the floor as well) On their next turn they could certainly rise from the floor and attack (assuming the target did not move) although at the very least I would give the intended victim a perception check. (see my first comment above)
As a DM I would also keep in mind how often the character tries to pull this "trick". If its something they do not do that often he may misjudge the depth and the top of his head/shoulders shows above the floor. (Stealth check maybe adjudicates this)
Against opponents who are not familiar with the character this would allow them to phase through a wall next to a door and surprise someone bracing the door. (Or end with the character phased inside the opponent...) They could also phase through a statue, a table, or other obstacle to gain a flank etc.. A useful ability to be sure but they arent exactly Shadowcat from the X-Men.
If hiding in combat is the issue just imagine this:
Characters are in a 30' by 30' room. In the center of the room is a 5' square pillar (sufficient for a character to hid behind)
Any character could easily hide behind the pillar but any observer would easily be able to predict where they would likely come out. (so no sneak attack unless the character did something unpredictable like digging down into the floor or suspending themselves from the ceiling)
For the phasing ability the same rules would generally apply. The character would certainly be hidden as they dropped into the floor. (Albeit blind and deaf) Assuming they do not move a significant distance (in my mind at least 15' to 20') an observing opponent would expect them to pop up in the near vicinity of where they sank into the stone. (Preventing a sneak attack)
All that being said, if a character was willing to try and pull of this trick and take damage by remaining in the floor or wall etc. and then reappear the next turn I would likely consider it a trade off. This would allow for a fun trick for the character that can be mitigated somewhat by moving opponents in combat. Sneak attack every other round while still powerful is not likely to be game breaking and if it is still too much for you, you can adjust by giving opponents a perception check to reduce the success.
Our players try new and innovative stuff. The player in question is having some fun playing a Phantom Rogue. They came up with a new way to hide in combat and wondered if it was legit.
We decided to the following:
1. Mobile does add 10 more feet to Ghost Walk flying movement.
2. The Rogue has to first succeed on a Stealth check against the targets ACTIVE perception. If necessary Disadvantage could apply as well.
3. The Rogue can not hide in the same patch of ground over and over. They can find new places to sink down into.
4. They can combine their movement and move in circles around a target. So they could still be in striking distance of a creature but move to a new location every turn.
5. The Rogue does not have to move horizontally once they are in the ground. Dipping down and popping back up are enough of a surprise.
6. They have to dip down 5 feet (Using 10 feet of flying) then pop up 5 feet (Using 10 feet of flying). (Thanks again Agilemind for the grid idea) crouching does not use movement at our table.
7. Abuse would eventually lead to termination of the ability
8. Tremosense and X-ray abilities would negate the move because the creature could see or sense the Rogue underground
We all though the key was the stealth check requirement. Jarashan was right, if a creature saw a Rogue dip into the ground they would watch for them to come back up. A successful Stealth check fixes that problem in our table. The successful stealth check means the Rogue figured out a way to get underground without being seen. Making it so that the Rogue has to use new ground each time preserves the surprise as well. The logic we used is the creature knows that the Rouge can go underground but where does the Rogue pop up and attack from? We gave the "Fog of War" argument. Also a creature hit by such a surprise attack might retreat instead of just stand there and take damage every turn. Also creatures with flying movement could take to the air and negate the Rogue's attack.
Hot take: If the rogue can’t hide it’s more often due to DM negligence than any idea of fairness or realism. The world should be populated with all kinds of mundane cover and obscurement.
So if DMs don’t have the time to populate the world to that degree of detail, let the rogue try to hide and get their sneak attack.
The rogue player wouldn’t have to think up ways to get their base class ability if DMs actually accepted that a rogue should reliably have chances to use it.
These rulings are the reasons why WOTC felt obligated to make steady aim a feature in Tasha’s.
all those different interpretations are also one of the largest reasons they are revamping hiding in the playtest.
also, Tremorsense is not sight. Watch the movie “tremors” to get an idea of what it does. You can definitely try to hide if Tremorsense is in play.
Thank you for the insight. I did not watch the movie but I did look in the monster manual.
Tremorsense
A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance. Tremorsense can’t be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs and umber hulks, have this special sense.
A Ghost Walking Phantom Rogue could absolutely hide from tremorsense. they are considered incorporeal.
I agree that hiding should be easy for a Rogue. Personally I think a successful active stealth check plus at least enough movement to match the grid of the monster should be enough to give the Rogue their sneak attack damage.
I have been looking at grids lately due to Agilemind and it makes sense if you have a monster that is on a 20 foot by 20 foot grid, you make a successful active stealth check, move 20 feet, then strike with your sneak attack. The mechanics could be worked into the story but for combat rolling purposes it would be a tight way of consistently hiding.
I know that many players feel that monsters would be able to swivel their heads but I think of it more like a stage magicians trick. The Rogue is so good at what they do, even when you know they are trying to trick you, you fall for the trick most of the time. ( the mechanics for this would be the stealth check). I have been to magic shows where I would bet my life a card was in the magician's left hand and it turns up in the front pocket of the person in the first row of seats. I clocked the card wrong. I knew it was a trick but it still tricked me.A monster has 6 seconds to figure out a Rogue's trick. Sometimes they might do it (succeed on the perception check) sometimes they screw up (They fail their perception check).
Also keep in mind that Rogue damage is balanced assuming they will sneak attack essentially every round. So making it easy for them to hide / sneak attack shouldn't be a game balance problem. The main thing you want to avoid is having them be un-attackable by the enemies too often.
1) If you crouch, I would rule you are crawling at half speed. You do NOT get your full movement when you are awkwardly doing something else.
2) If you are moving stealthy you also move at half your normal rate unless you want disadvantage to the stealth.
3) You do gain advantage and you do gain sneak attack when hiding.
4) You do not get to limit your movement to 4 ft. You have to move in 5 ft sections.
5) Mobile does increase his speed to 20.
This is what he can do, Move 5ft down, move 10 ft forward, move 5 ft up. then pop up. Doing so grants a stealth role at disadvantage for moving at full speed. BUT if no one saw him go phantom into the ground I would say the victim also had disadvantage when trying to perceive the stealthy character, cancelling out the disadvantage.
If he makes his stealth roll he gets advantage to hit and sneak attack.
Also keep in mind that Rogue damage is balanced assuming they will sneak attack essentially every round. So making it easy for them to hide / sneak attack shouldn't be a game balance problem. The main thing you want to avoid is having them be un-attackable by the enemies too often.
In my opinion that is what burning up movement comes in. Even a 5 foot by 5 foot grid monster might use all of a Rogues motion. They move in 20 feet to get close to the monster. Make an active stealth check, move the 5 feet for the monster's grid, then sneak attack. The have used 25 feet of their movement. IF they had 30 to begin with they, might not be able to move out of range for even a melee attack. It kind of keeps the balance. That is probably why Tasha's Steady Aim does not allow a Rogue to move at all, which I don't really like. What if you are running a Rogue without a ranged attack? They can't move close enough to get into melee range with steady aim.
A Phantom Rogue that uses the under ground hiding trick might not have enough movement to leave the area until their next turn. Especially with the requirement they can't hide under the same piece of ground all of the time. That might balance things right there. The trick itself burns up 20 feet of movement and requires at least the Mobile feat to make it work. If the Rogue has to move more than 20 feet to get into melee range, they might miss out on an attack that turn.
1) If you crouch, I would rule you are crawling at half speed. You do NOT get your full movement when you are awkwardly doing something else.
2) If you are moving stealthy you also move at half your normal rate unless you want disadvantage to the stealth.
3) You do gain advantage and you do gain sneak attack when hiding.
4) You do not get to limit your movement to 4 ft. You have to move in 5 ft sections.
5) Mobile does increase his speed to 20.
This is what he can do, Move 5ft down, move 10 ft forward, move 5 ft up. then pop up. Doing so grants a stealth role at disadvantage for moving at full speed. BUT if no one saw him go phantom into the ground I would say the victim also had disadvantage when trying to perceive the stealthy character, cancelling out the disadvantage.
If he makes his stealth roll he gets advantage to hit and sneak attack.
1. Can you find the RAW for crouching in place? At our table we decided that crouching in place was no different than drawing a sword from a scabbard. The logic is that drawing the sword is part of the attack action. Crouching is part of the Bonus HIDE action for Rogues. As long ans there is not a change in position, no movement is burned. Kind of like a 1/2 Burpee only you don't go completely to the floor. When I was in shape I could almost do one instantly and I did not change my location. My body position when from upright to on the floor but I was in the same basic place. (My exercise mat).
Edit: Things you can do that are part of your movement or action:
2. 1/2 movement for stealth only applies outside of combat. Here is the sage advice:
Does travel pace apply to movement in combat, or just when traveling?
4. No. You can choose to use a grid, it is optional. If you do' not use a grid you can move in any increment that makes sense. Agilemind turned me on to grids but they are still optional.
5. Mobile Feat:
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Your speed increases by 10 feet.
When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn.
When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
Notice the first bullet point. Your Speed. NOT your walking speed or your swimming speed or your climbing speed. Any speed you have, you get 10 more feet of it. If you have swiming speed, you get 10 more feet. If you having flying speed you get 10 more feet of it.
Come to think of it a Rogue Phantom Ghost Walking could dash through most creatures with the Mobile Feat. Once they were behind the creature they usually can't be seen unless it is a Beholder or can see behind itself. Advantage ensues and sneak attack happens.
From the Players Handbook:
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
You would not even need a stealth check, just run through the creature and attack right away. Sure they can turn around but not before getting attacked.
Are there no other melee characters in the party? I feel like people really over complicate the situation. Compared to all previous editions, it is so so so sooooooooo easy to get a sneak attack off in 5e. Remember that all you need is another enemy of the target within 5’ of them in order to be able sneak attack. This means anyone engaged in melee with another creature, it doesn’t even have to be your ally, can be sneak attacked. The only reason your rogue should need these shenanigans is if the entire party fights exclusively at range and is also exceptionally good at never accidentally getting caught in melee.
Just attack a target that is engaged in melee with anyone else. Focussing fire is a tactic you want to practice whether it gets you sneak attack or not, as it’s one of the few things you can do that will actually shorten the overall numbers of rounds your party is involved in combat compared to if you split DPS amongst a bunch of targets.
Spy - It would be interesting to know how this works out at your table. It seems like you all have good communications and it is always nice to know how things work out.
In response to some of the others I am betting that this is a case of the Rogue getting a new ability and trying to make it fun and interesting for himself and the table. Spy can correct me if I am wrong. I think it is great that Spy and his players can work things out without either side worrying about "winning the arguement". In the end it is their collective table and I hope they have fun with it all.
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Your speed increases by 10 feet.
When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn.
When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
Notice the first bullet point. Your Speed. NOT your walking speed or your swimming speed or your climbing speed. Any speed you have, you get 10 more feet of it. If you have swiming speed, you get 10 more feet. If you having flying speed you get 10 more feet of it.
Ghostwalk is NOT the same as having an innate fly speed. It is a temporary magical effect with a defined speed (specific overrides general), it is no different having the Fly spell cast on you. Mobile affects you your character, not magical effects applied to you. It does not affect Ghostwalk, just as it would not affect a fly speed granted by a magical item, or a spell.
Agilemind: I would argue that a class ability is different from a wizard's spell. Sure a Phantom Rogue was not born with wings but their class ability allows them to fly on a consistent basis.
Now an Aarakocra Phantom Rogue....hm.
I have been searching the internet and it seems that there is not a definitive answer on whether the Mobile Feat applies to all types of movement no matter the source or duration. Some people argue that innate abilities would benefit but not spells. Jeremy Crawford had something about Monk movement that might also apply to the Mobile Feat.
What did you think of the Dash Idea? Ghost Walk allows you to move through solid objects. The Mobile feat removes the difficult Terrain part of Ghost Walk. You could Dash through a monster and hit them from behind, gaining advantage. The would only have 6 seconds to try to spin around or swivel their head enough to see you. Something with 360 vision or with multiple eyes like a Beholder might be able to defeat a trick like that. My argument would be that even though the entire turn takes 6 seconds, the monster does not have all of that time to swivel their head. The Rogue would have their weapon into their vitals long before they manage to get their head turned to see what was coming.
Born_of_Fire74: our Rogues sometimes scout by themselves and run into trouble. Sometimes we have battle fields that put the Rouge completely by themselves. In the past we have allowed any Rogues to take the Magic Initiate feat and get Find Familiar. This was a new build by a player that just wanted to try something a little different. In fact, I did not intend it but as the DM I designed an outdoor scene that was pretty expansive. Most of the characters were isolated. The Phantom Rogue was using walls to hide in. Since they were outside, they asked if they could use the ground to hide in. Hence my original question. If I was a better DM I might have put some trees or broken walls in the scene but I originally designed it as a large open field with a single tunnel. The evil orcs and their lizard men allies flooded out of the tunnel and spread out across the field. The Paladin did most of the killing and they rescued the wizard. The Rogue said they could hold on and wait for a rescue. Because I ruled they could go underground to hide, they did more than that, they killed a bunch of evil orcs.
In the end it was not my best work but everyone had fun so there is that.
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I had a player ask me if the following was possible with a Phantom Ghost Walk character.
They took the mobile feat so they had 20 feet of flying movement.
They crouched so that their height was less than 4 feet tall.
They moved 4 feet under the floor then moved 2 feet to the side (still under the floor) using Stealth to Hide.
They made their stealth check.
Then they used 4 feet of movement to return to above the floor.
They used their action to Attack. They claimed they had advantage because they were coming out of hiding so they could get their sneak attack damage.
They claimed they had successfully hidden so they had advantage on their attack.
Is this move RAWl?
The creature did not have any way to see them underneath the floor so they did break eye contact and they did move to a slightly different position while out of sight.
Note: according to the description Ghost Walk uses difficult terrain if you are going through something like a ghost would. So 4+2+4 = 10 Then 10*2=20 feet of movement.
Why would Mobile increase their flying movement? Their flying movement is not based on their character's speed thus should not be affected by Mobile. Note that Mobile does NOT say "increase all your movement speeds by 10 ft" - so it only increases your default, aka walking, speed. Mobile does not affect burrowing speeds from Wildshape, nor does it affect your fly speed from the Fly spell, so likewise does not affect your ghostwalk fly speed.
Thus they only have 10ft of fly speed, if they move into an object then that is difficult terrain so they can only move 5ft into the object/floor - at which point yes they wouldn't be visible and so could Hide. However, in order to leave the object they would need to use a Cunning Action Dash so they don't have that BA in order to Hide while in the object. If they spread it over 2 turns: move into the floor and end turn, next turn BA Hide then move out of the floor and attack then I would give them Adv on that attack for being previously Hidden. However they will take 1d10 damage for ending their turn inside the floor.
I don't think moving 2ft would be sufficient as counting as "moving" as typically "moving" requires at least 5ft of movement to shift to a new position on a grid map. If any amount of movement counted as "moving" then why not just move 1 inch?
1. I asked the player about the 2 ft. thing. they said they just used as much movement as they had left.
2. How would your answer change if you assumed that as the DM I allowed my player to apply the Mobile Feat bonus to their flying movement?
I am looking for some clarity on hiding not moving. Is hiding under the floor as a ghost enough to actually hide? In past we have had trouble with hiding in combat. For example after much debate we finally decided that as a HOMEBREW solution going around a corner was enough to hide in combat. It doesn't matter what the RAW answer is, we made it so. Now I have a new question to try and answer. I am looking for guidance as a DM.
What is your opinion, is going under the floor and moving a little bit enough to count as hiding in combat? Ultimately my entire party will vote but if I can bring some good arguments to the table that would help me.
What you said about snapping to a grid line is interesting. Is that RAW or homebrew? I always thought you could move 1 foot if you wanted to do so. I did not think you had to move in 5 foot increments.
Anyway my question was about using Ghost Walk to hide in combat.
I guess if all you have to do is move and succeed on a stealth check. You could make a stealth check, then if you succeed, move 5 feet under the floor, then pop back up 5 feet back up in the same space. Technically you still broke eye contact and if they made their stealth check they could be considered hidden. (Those are my ideas. not my players ideas. They still think they need to move a little bit to make it legit.)
In order to hide, all that is required is to break line of sight with the creature you are hiding from, this could be behind a wall, in an area of fog, or under the floor, or simply by being invisible. You technically don't even need to move after you have hidden, you only need to move to a new hiding place after you reveal yourself by making an attack. So yes, moving into the floor would absolutely break line of sight and thus allow you to hide, and then reemerge and attack with advantage.
If you play on a grid you have to move in 5ft increments, playing on a grid is optional. If you aren't playing on a grid, you can move as much or as little as you want - including as little as 1 inch - but to count as "moving to a new space" you need to move at least 5ft - arguably you need to move at distance equal to the space you occupy which is 5ft for Small/Medium, 10ft of Large, or 15ft for Huge, but most people just rule of thumb use 5ft b/c grids).
I should ask first why this is an issue at your table? Is this something you fear that the player will abuse? Or is this just a one time fun thing they came up with? If its the latter then no big deal let them succeed. If you feel it may be abused to give the player sneak attack every turn then I have additional comments below. (Even in fantasy and science fiction I like to keep my game more believable and realistic. fyi)
Putting myself in the shoes of anyone in the room. If I saw someone "phase" through the floor out of sight, I would likely be keeping a sharp eye on the floor all about me...
Also with the character crouching and trying to move that far that quickly as a DM I would have an issue with distance. The player cannot occupy the same square as the enemy so his math is off and would end with him in the same space. (Crouching to me would reduce his speed further, ever try and crouch and run?)
20' movement in difficult terrain effectively limits total distance to 10'. Dropping into the floor should take their full move. Moving past the opponent should take another 10'. This means that a full turn with 2 moves gets them into the floor and allows them to pass by the opponent but they are still in the floor. (Note that the player cannot see anything while in the floor as well) On their next turn they could certainly rise from the floor and attack (assuming the target did not move) although at the very least I would give the intended victim a perception check. (see my first comment above)
As a DM I would also keep in mind how often the character tries to pull this "trick". If its something they do not do that often he may misjudge the depth and the top of his head/shoulders shows above the floor. (Stealth check maybe adjudicates this)
Against opponents who are not familiar with the character this would allow them to phase through a wall next to a door and surprise someone bracing the door. (Or end with the character phased inside the opponent...) They could also phase through a statue, a table, or other obstacle to gain a flank etc.. A useful ability to be sure but they arent exactly Shadowcat from the X-Men.
Thanks for the information. It really helps.
If hiding in combat is the issue just imagine this:
Characters are in a 30' by 30' room. In the center of the room is a 5' square pillar (sufficient for a character to hid behind)
Any character could easily hide behind the pillar but any observer would easily be able to predict where they would likely come out. (so no sneak attack unless the character did something unpredictable like digging down into the floor or suspending themselves from the ceiling)
For the phasing ability the same rules would generally apply. The character would certainly be hidden as they dropped into the floor. (Albeit blind and deaf) Assuming they do not move a significant distance (in my mind at least 15' to 20') an observing opponent would expect them to pop up in the near vicinity of where they sank into the stone. (Preventing a sneak attack)
All that being said, if a character was willing to try and pull of this trick and take damage by remaining in the floor or wall etc. and then reappear the next turn I would likely consider it a trade off. This would allow for a fun trick for the character that can be mitigated somewhat by moving opponents in combat. Sneak attack every other round while still powerful is not likely to be game breaking and if it is still too much for you, you can adjust by giving opponents a perception check to reduce the success.
Just a thought.
Our players try new and innovative stuff. The player in question is having some fun playing a Phantom Rogue. They came up with a new way to hide in combat and wondered if it was legit.
We decided to the following:
1. Mobile does add 10 more feet to Ghost Walk flying movement.
2. The Rogue has to first succeed on a Stealth check against the targets ACTIVE perception. If necessary Disadvantage could apply as well.
3. The Rogue can not hide in the same patch of ground over and over. They can find new places to sink down into.
4. They can combine their movement and move in circles around a target. So they could still be in striking distance of a creature but move to a new location every turn.
5. The Rogue does not have to move horizontally once they are in the ground. Dipping down and popping back up are enough of a surprise.
6. They have to dip down 5 feet (Using 10 feet of flying) then pop up 5 feet (Using 10 feet of flying). (Thanks again Agilemind for the grid idea) crouching does not use movement at our table.
7. Abuse would eventually lead to termination of the ability
8. Tremosense and X-ray abilities would negate the move because the creature could see or sense the Rogue underground
We all though the key was the stealth check requirement. Jarashan was right, if a creature saw a Rogue dip into the ground they would watch for them to come back up. A successful Stealth check fixes that problem in our table. The successful stealth check means the Rogue figured out a way to get underground without being seen. Making it so that the Rogue has to use new ground each time preserves the surprise as well. The logic we used is the creature knows that the Rouge can go underground but where does the Rogue pop up and attack from? We gave the "Fog of War" argument. Also a creature hit by such a surprise attack might retreat instead of just stand there and take damage every turn. Also creatures with flying movement could take to the air and negate the Rogue's attack.
Hot take: If the rogue can’t hide it’s more often due to DM negligence than any idea of fairness or realism. The world should be populated with all kinds of mundane cover and obscurement.
So if DMs don’t have the time to populate the world to that degree of detail, let the rogue try to hide and get their sneak attack.
The rogue player wouldn’t have to think up ways to get their base class ability if DMs actually accepted that a rogue should reliably have chances to use it.
These rulings are the reasons why WOTC felt obligated to make steady aim a feature in Tasha’s.
all those different interpretations are also one of the largest reasons they are revamping hiding in the playtest.
also, Tremorsense is not sight. Watch the movie “tremors” to get an idea of what it does. You can definitely try to hide if Tremorsense is in play.
Thank you for the insight. I did not watch the movie but I did look in the monster manual.
Tremorsense
A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance. Tremorsense can’t be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs and umber hulks, have this special sense.
A Ghost Walking Phantom Rogue could absolutely hide from tremorsense. they are considered incorporeal.
I agree that hiding should be easy for a Rogue. Personally I think a successful active stealth check plus at least enough movement to match the grid of the monster should be enough to give the Rogue their sneak attack damage.
I have been looking at grids lately due to Agilemind and it makes sense if you have a monster that is on a 20 foot by 20 foot grid, you make a successful active stealth check, move 20 feet, then strike with your sneak attack. The mechanics could be worked into the story but for combat rolling purposes it would be a tight way of consistently hiding.
I know that many players feel that monsters would be able to swivel their heads but I think of it more like a stage magicians trick. The Rogue is so good at what they do, even when you know they are trying to trick you, you fall for the trick most of the time. ( the mechanics for this would be the stealth check). I have been to magic shows where I would bet my life a card was in the magician's left hand and it turns up in the front pocket of the person in the first row of seats. I clocked the card wrong. I knew it was a trick but it still tricked me.A monster has 6 seconds to figure out a Rogue's trick. Sometimes they might do it (succeed on the perception check) sometimes they screw up (They fail their perception check).
Also keep in mind that Rogue damage is balanced assuming they will sneak attack essentially every round. So making it easy for them to hide / sneak attack shouldn't be a game balance problem. The main thing you want to avoid is having them be un-attackable by the enemies too often.
1) If you crouch, I would rule you are crawling at half speed. You do NOT get your full movement when you are awkwardly doing something else.
2) If you are moving stealthy you also move at half your normal rate unless you want disadvantage to the stealth.
3) You do gain advantage and you do gain sneak attack when hiding.
4) You do not get to limit your movement to 4 ft. You have to move in 5 ft sections.
5) Mobile does increase his speed to 20.
This is what he can do, Move 5ft down, move 10 ft forward, move 5 ft up. then pop up. Doing so grants a stealth role at disadvantage for moving at full speed. BUT if no one saw him go phantom into the ground I would say the victim also had disadvantage when trying to perceive the stealthy character, cancelling out the disadvantage.
If he makes his stealth roll he gets advantage to hit and sneak attack.
In my opinion that is what burning up movement comes in. Even a 5 foot by 5 foot grid monster might use all of a Rogues motion. They move in 20 feet to get close to the monster. Make an active stealth check, move the 5 feet for the monster's grid, then sneak attack. The have used 25 feet of their movement. IF they had 30 to begin with they, might not be able to move out of range for even a melee attack. It kind of keeps the balance. That is probably why Tasha's Steady Aim does not allow a Rogue to move at all, which I don't really like. What if you are running a Rogue without a ranged attack? They can't move close enough to get into melee range with steady aim.
A Phantom Rogue that uses the under ground hiding trick might not have enough movement to leave the area until their next turn. Especially with the requirement they can't hide under the same piece of ground all of the time. That might balance things right there. The trick itself burns up 20 feet of movement and requires at least the Mobile feat to make it work. If the Rogue has to move more than 20 feet to get into melee range, they might miss out on an attack that turn.
1. Can you find the RAW for crouching in place? At our table we decided that crouching in place was no different than drawing a sword from a scabbard. The logic is that drawing the sword is part of the attack action. Crouching is part of the Bonus HIDE action for Rogues. As long ans there is not a change in position, no movement is burned. Kind of like a 1/2 Burpee only you don't go completely to the floor. When I was in shape I could almost do one instantly and I did not change my location. My body position when from upright to on the floor but I was in the same basic place. (My exercise mat).
Edit: Things you can do that are part of your movement or action:
2. 1/2 movement for stealth only applies outside of combat. Here is the sage advice:
Does travel pace apply to movement in combat, or just when traveling?
The travel pace rule doesn’t apply in combat.
3. agreed.
4. No. You can choose to use a grid, it is optional. If you do' not use a grid you can move in any increment that makes sense. Agilemind turned me on to grids but they are still optional.
5. Mobile Feat:
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Notice the first bullet point. Your Speed. NOT your walking speed or your swimming speed or your climbing speed. Any speed you have, you get 10 more feet of it. If you have swiming speed, you get 10 more feet. If you having flying speed you get 10 more feet of it.
Come to think of it a Rogue Phantom Ghost Walking could dash through most creatures with the Mobile Feat. Once they were behind the creature they usually can't be seen unless it is a Beholder or can see behind itself. Advantage ensues and sneak attack happens.
From the Players Handbook:
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
You would not even need a stealth check, just run through the creature and attack right away. Sure they can turn around but not before getting attacked.
Are there no other melee characters in the party? I feel like people really over complicate the situation. Compared to all previous editions, it is so so so sooooooooo easy to get a sneak attack off in 5e. Remember that all you need is another enemy of the target within 5’ of them in order to be able sneak attack. This means anyone engaged in melee with another creature, it doesn’t even have to be your ally, can be sneak attacked. The only reason your rogue should need these shenanigans is if the entire party fights exclusively at range and is also exceptionally good at never accidentally getting caught in melee.
Just attack a target that is engaged in melee with anyone else. Focussing fire is a tactic you want to practice whether it gets you sneak attack or not, as it’s one of the few things you can do that will actually shorten the overall numbers of rounds your party is involved in combat compared to if you split DPS amongst a bunch of targets.
Spy - It would be interesting to know how this works out at your table. It seems like you all have good communications and it is always nice to know how things work out.
In response to some of the others I am betting that this is a case of the Rogue getting a new ability and trying to make it fun and interesting for himself and the table. Spy can correct me if I am wrong. I think it is great that Spy and his players can work things out without either side worrying about "winning the arguement". In the end it is their collective table and I hope they have fun with it all.
Ghostwalk is NOT the same as having an innate fly speed. It is a temporary magical effect with a defined speed (specific overrides general), it is no different having the Fly spell cast on you. Mobile affects you your character, not magical effects applied to you. It does not affect Ghostwalk, just as it would not affect a fly speed granted by a magical item, or a spell.
Agilemind: I would argue that a class ability is different from a wizard's spell. Sure a Phantom Rogue was not born with wings but their class ability allows them to fly on a consistent basis.
Now an Aarakocra Phantom Rogue....hm.
I have been searching the internet and it seems that there is not a definitive answer on whether the Mobile Feat applies to all types of movement no matter the source or duration. Some people argue that innate abilities would benefit but not spells. Jeremy Crawford had something about Monk movement that might also apply to the Mobile Feat.
What did you think of the Dash Idea? Ghost Walk allows you to move through solid objects. The Mobile feat removes the difficult Terrain part of Ghost Walk. You could Dash through a monster and hit them from behind, gaining advantage. The would only have 6 seconds to try to spin around or swivel their head enough to see you. Something with 360 vision or with multiple eyes like a Beholder might be able to defeat a trick like that. My argument would be that even though the entire turn takes 6 seconds, the monster does not have all of that time to swivel their head. The Rogue would have their weapon into their vitals long before they manage to get their head turned to see what was coming.
Born_of_Fire74: our Rogues sometimes scout by themselves and run into trouble. Sometimes we have battle fields that put the Rouge completely by themselves. In the past we have allowed any Rogues to take the Magic Initiate feat and get Find Familiar. This was a new build by a player that just wanted to try something a little different. In fact, I did not intend it but as the DM I designed an outdoor scene that was pretty expansive. Most of the characters were isolated. The Phantom Rogue was using walls to hide in. Since they were outside, they asked if they could use the ground to hide in. Hence my original question. If I was a better DM I might have put some trees or broken walls in the scene but I originally designed it as a large open field with a single tunnel. The evil orcs and their lizard men allies flooded out of the tunnel and spread out across the field. The Paladin did most of the killing and they rescued the wizard. The Rogue said they could hold on and wait for a rescue. Because I ruled they could go underground to hide, they did more than that, they killed a bunch of evil orcs.
In the end it was not my best work but everyone had fun so there is that.