Conjure Woodland Beings doesn't specify that the caster chooses, and DMs know not to give you pixies. They aren't even listed as an example in the spell. :)
What are some good tactics for spells that are not obvious? Yes, many will be situational.
Examples:
(1) If you have flight (owlin, faerie, winged tiefling, etc), fly 15 feet above an enemy and cast lightning lure. On failed STR save, enemy is pulled 10 feet up, takes lightning damage and then 10 feet fall damage and is prone (melee against him is at adavantage and his at disadv until he gets up).
(2) If you are a sorcerer with a bloodwell vial, wither and bloom will trigger you getting sorcery points back.
Not sure if these are not well known, but..
Polymorph -> Power Word Kill (I HATE this one)
Wouldn't that just result in the polymorphed target being returned back to their regular form?
No it does not. Polymorph is not ambiguos. It clearly does the following.
If your hp goes to 0, the spell ends, you revert to your original form and HP, any excess damage transfers to your old form.
If you die, the spell ends and you revert to your original form, but dead.
0 hp means you get death saves. Being dead means you have failed your death saves and "There is nothing left to do but go through his pockets and look for loose change."
Power Word Kill is a NINTH level spell and only kills creature of less than 100 hp, doing no damage at all if the HP is above 100. That compares with Meteor Swarm that does (on average) 140 hp over a huge area, save for 70. Nobody in their right mind would learn Power Word Kill except that it negates death saves and other protections such as extra hp from things like Polymorph, Abjuration Ward, or Temp HP.
In other words, this is not some kind of special combination, it is the intended purpose of the spell Power Word Kill. Any other interpretation makes it near worthless. Why would anyone learn a spell that does 100 damage to one target rather than one that does 70 on average to an area, but double that if a save is failed.
No it does not. Polymorph is not ambiguos. It clearly does the following.
If your hp goes to 0, the spell ends, you revert to your original form and HP, any excess damage transfers to your old form.
If you die, the spell ends and you revert to your original form, but dead.
0 hp means you get death saves. Being dead means you have failed your death saves and "There is nothing left to do but go through his pockets and look for loose change."
Power Word Kill is a NINTH level spell and only kills creature of less than 100 hp, doing no damage at all if the HP is above 100. That compares with Meteor Swarm that does (on average) 140 hp over a huge area, save for 70. Nobody in their right mind would learn Power Word Kill except that it negates death saves and other protections such as extra hp from things like Polymorph, Abjuration Ward, or Temp HP.
In other words, this is not some kind of special combination, it is the intended purpose of the spell Power Word Kill. Any other interpretation makes it near worthless. Why would anyone learn a spell that does 100 damage to one target rather than one that does 70 on average to an area, but double that if a save is failed.
I would say that if a target dies in polymorphed form it reverts and therefore regains its normal hit points and is not dead because the spell says
The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies...
The target assumes the hit points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed.
To me that means that the polymorphed form dieing is one case that it reverts and in all cases that it reverts it regains it's normal hit points. The spell could have been more explicit if it had another sentence which says "If it dies..." but it also doesn't have a sentence saying " If you dispel" or " if you stop concentrating". The spell doesn't list what happens in those cases because it doesn't need to list what happens every way it could end. It only needs and over arching statement like what is given and any exceptions. Death just isn't an exception to the regain normal hit points rule only damage that carries over is.
In terms of balance meteor swarm is grossly over powered as it has almost triple the damage it should have for its level with an insane area. For example psychic scream does an average of 49 damage. on a failed save almost half of what meteor swarm does on a successful save. You should not be trying to bring other 9th level spells to it's power level because you will end up with cheesy game breaking combos.
PWK does seem overly situational to put in a 9th level spell slot without a specific plan/use.
It is and it could use a rework but the problem is that by necessity the spell has to only be able to instantly kill weak creatures. PF2e basically makes it so that if it is 2 levels lower then it dies instantly and if it's a higher level then you then it takes big chunk of damage with no save
I would probably make it something like:
If the target is a non legendary creature of cr 15 or less, or has equal to or less than 100 hit points it dies instantly. Otherwise it must make a constitution saving throw, on a failure it takes 15d10 necrotic damage and suffers a death curse, on a successful save it takes half damage and is not effected by the curse. A creature effected by the death curse cannot regain hit points by an means. This curse can only be removed by wish.
Maybe that's too powerful but basically it would take out an easy or weaker non boss creature at level 17 when you get it and if it isn't an easy creature or it's a boss then it does damage in line with the dmg recommendations for a 9th level spell and prevents healing. Alternatively you could go the pf2e route and make it just do 50 damage
If I recall Crawford was specifically asked about the Polymorph, Power Word Kill combo, and he agreed that it DOES work that way. You only revert to natural form if you take HP damage, not from insta-kill effects.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
If I recall Crawford was specifically asked about the Polymorph, Power Word Kill combo, and he agreed that it DOES work that way. You only revert to natural form if you take HP damage, not from insta-kill effects.
One would hope they're going through all the Sage Advice questions and questions Crawford and Mearls answered online and incorporating clearer language into the 2024 spell descriptions.
I'm not overly optimistic that's happening, but I'll hope it is.
While I suppose it could always be more clear, I'm not sure why this one causes so much consternation.
I think people get being alive confused with having hit points. Doors have hit points in D&D but are not alive. Power word kill never reduces you to zero hit points you just die. In fact, PW:K doesn't deal a single point of damage. You still have hit points and are dead. Once you accept this, then the rest is easy to follow.
Even falling to zero hit points and failing your death saves doesn't *always* kill you, just ask that level 14 Zealot barbarian. This is because specific overrides general. The general rule of failed death saves would say were dead, but the specific rule for Zealot overrides this so you are alive. Note: If you PW:K a Zealot, it dies too. Nothing in the specifics of "Rage Beyond Death" would prevent death by PW:K, so the specifics of PW:K win - you are dead.
Now let's mix polymorph into it. PW:K kills you so you die. Polymorph does not restore your life - so you are dead. End of story. Polymorph does say you revert to your natural form when you die... so that happens. It says your hit points change from whatever non-zero value it is to whatever non-zero value it was prior... so that happens. But nothing fixes the fact that you are dead. Dead with hit points just like any other victim of PW:K.
Note that for the same reasons the spell Death Ward will not save you from Power Word Kill. Death Ward says you have to die from taking damage, and PW:K doesn't do damage.
If I recall Crawford was specifically asked about the Polymorph, Power Word Kill combo, and he agreed that it DOES work that way. You only revert to natural form if you take HP damage, not from insta-kill effects.
Yeah he did but I'd say that's bad advice. I don't think it fits a plain reading of polymorph, game balance or the fiction of the polymorph spell.
Basically it gives PWK a special exception to the normal function of polymorph making it so that your hit points are actually that of the polymorphed creature as opposed to the polymorphed forms hitpoints being an additional block of hitpoints ontop of your existing one. Essentially in fiction allowing this interaction makes it so the polymorph spell can effectively strip powers and damage the life force of even gods and demon lords to the point they'd be susceptible to PWK, for example if a god of a death was immune to PWK but PWK could bypass stat block via the polymorph spell then its as if polymorph stripes the power of a god. To me that just seems silly and fundamentally changes the function of polymorph. It also makes it so that what many players would normally use as a buff for example wild shapes and other polymorph spells become severe debuffs with no warning.
If I recall Crawford was specifically asked about the Polymorph, Power Word Kill combo, and he agreed that it DOES work that way. You only revert to natural form if you take HP damage, not from insta-kill effects.
Yeah he did but I'd say that's bad advice. I don't think it fits a plain reading of polymorph, game balance or the fiction of the polymorph spell.
Basically it gives PWK a special exception to the normal function of polymorph making it so that your hit points are actually that of the polymorphed creature as opposed to the polymorphed forms hitpoints being an additional block of hitpoints ontop of your existing one. Essentially in fiction allowing this interaction makes it so the polymorph spell can effectively strip powers and damage the life force of even gods and demon lords to the point they'd be susceptible to PWK, for example if a god of a death was immune to PWK but PWK could bypass stat block via the polymorph spell then its as if polymorph stripes the power of a god. To me that just seems silly and fundamentally changes the function of polymorph. It also makes it so that what many players would normally use as a buff for example wild shapes and other polymorph spells become severe debuffs with no warning.
That is an OK opinion and I think reasonable for a house rule. However, I personally don't think it is bad advice because it is RAW. PWK is really one of the few (or maybe only) way to kill something without doing damage. I think they should probably do this differently in the next edition. However, RAW that is the way it currently works.
As I pointed out in a pervious point, PWK kills things but does zero damage. So you are dead with hit points. As you note, PWK is equally strong against wild shaped druids.
Your example of a God... well if you can land polymorph on a God then that is a major achievement. Most Gods would not fail that roll and if they did they would have a legendary resistance to succeed anyway. So, If you can get the God to fail a Polymorph save then maybe you deserve to be able to PWK them.
Phantom Steed plus Eldritch Blast+Grasp of Hadar. Let's you run up walls/trees, up enemies and drop for falling damage plus the usual EBlast.
Glyph of Warding + and concentration mass debuff, like Sickening Radiance, Evard's Black Tentacles, Maelstrom, or even Hypnotic Pattern. Best defense if there is only 1 way to the party camp and the monsters are smart enough to want gold.
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Conjure Woodland Beings doesn't specify that the caster chooses, and DMs know not to give you pixies. They aren't even listed as an example in the spell. :)
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
Wouldn't that just result in the polymorphed target being returned back to their regular form?
I agree but the wording is ambiguous, so a lot of people think it kills you regardless.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
No it does not. Polymorph is not ambiguos. It clearly does the following.
0 hp means you get death saves. Being dead means you have failed your death saves and "There is nothing left to do but go through his pockets and look for loose change."
Power Word Kill is a NINTH level spell and only kills creature of less than 100 hp, doing no damage at all if the HP is above 100. That compares with Meteor Swarm that does (on average) 140 hp over a huge area, save for 70. Nobody in their right mind would learn Power Word Kill except that it negates death saves and other protections such as extra hp from things like Polymorph, Abjuration Ward, or Temp HP.
In other words, this is not some kind of special combination, it is the intended purpose of the spell Power Word Kill. Any other interpretation makes it near worthless. Why would anyone learn a spell that does 100 damage to one target rather than one that does 70 on average to an area, but double that if a save is failed.
I would say that if a target dies in polymorphed form it reverts and therefore regains its normal hit points and is not dead because the spell says
To me that means that the polymorphed form dieing is one case that it reverts and in all cases that it reverts it regains it's normal hit points. The spell could have been more explicit if it had another sentence which says "If it dies..." but it also doesn't have a sentence saying " If you dispel" or " if you stop concentrating". The spell doesn't list what happens in those cases because it doesn't need to list what happens every way it could end. It only needs and over arching statement like what is given and any exceptions. Death just isn't an exception to the regain normal hit points rule only damage that carries over is.
In terms of balance meteor swarm is grossly over powered as it has almost triple the damage it should have for its level with an insane area. For example psychic scream does an average of 49 damage. on a failed save almost half of what meteor swarm does on a successful save. You should not be trying to bring other 9th level spells to it's power level because you will end up with cheesy game breaking combos.
Power Word Kill combo or any combo that uses a 9th level spell is I hate to say completely unrealistic.
The chances of ever seeing this thing come off are so low that it isn't worth thinking about.
Yes, I understand that it's fun to invent but very very few games ever reach the point at which 9th levels spells are in play.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I use them for monsters...
You are luckier than most to be able to play at that level.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That… is an odd mindset. But you do you.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
PWK does seem overly situational to put in a 9th level spell slot without a specific plan/use.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
It is and it could use a rework but the problem is that by necessity the spell has to only be able to instantly kill weak creatures. PF2e basically makes it so that if it is 2 levels lower then it dies instantly and if it's a higher level then you then it takes big chunk of damage with no save
I would probably make it something like:
If the target is a non legendary creature of cr 15 or less, or has equal to or less than 100 hit points it dies instantly. Otherwise it must make a constitution saving throw, on a failure it takes 15d10 necrotic damage and suffers a death curse, on a successful save it takes half damage and is not effected by the curse. A creature effected by the death curse cannot regain hit points by an means. This curse can only be removed by wish.
Maybe that's too powerful but basically it would take out an easy or weaker non boss creature at level 17 when you get it and if it isn't an easy creature or it's a boss then it does damage in line with the dmg recommendations for a 9th level spell and prevents healing. Alternatively you could go the pf2e route and make it just do 50 damage
If I recall Crawford was specifically asked about the Polymorph, Power Word Kill combo, and he agreed that it DOES work that way. You only revert to natural form if you take HP damage, not from insta-kill effects.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
One would hope they're going through all the Sage Advice questions and questions Crawford and Mearls answered online and incorporating clearer language into the 2024 spell descriptions.
I'm not overly optimistic that's happening, but I'll hope it is.
While I suppose it could always be more clear, I'm not sure why this one causes so much consternation.
I think people get being alive confused with having hit points. Doors have hit points in D&D but are not alive. Power word kill never reduces you to zero hit points you just die. In fact, PW:K doesn't deal a single point of damage. You still have hit points and are dead. Once you accept this, then the rest is easy to follow.
Even falling to zero hit points and failing your death saves doesn't *always* kill you, just ask that level 14 Zealot barbarian. This is because specific overrides general. The general rule of failed death saves would say were dead, but the specific rule for Zealot overrides this so you are alive. Note: If you PW:K a Zealot, it dies too. Nothing in the specifics of "Rage Beyond Death" would prevent death by PW:K, so the specifics of PW:K win - you are dead.
Now let's mix polymorph into it. PW:K kills you so you die. Polymorph does not restore your life - so you are dead. End of story. Polymorph does say you revert to your natural form when you die... so that happens. It says your hit points change from whatever non-zero value it is to whatever non-zero value it was prior... so that happens. But nothing fixes the fact that you are dead. Dead with hit points just like any other victim of PW:K.
Note that for the same reasons the spell Death Ward will not save you from Power Word Kill. Death Ward says you have to die from taking damage, and PW:K doesn't do damage.
Yeah he did but I'd say that's bad advice. I don't think it fits a plain reading of polymorph, game balance or the fiction of the polymorph spell.
Basically it gives PWK a special exception to the normal function of polymorph making it so that your hit points are actually that of the polymorphed creature as opposed to the polymorphed forms hitpoints being an additional block of hitpoints ontop of your existing one. Essentially in fiction allowing this interaction makes it so the polymorph spell can effectively strip powers and damage the life force of even gods and demon lords to the point they'd be susceptible to PWK, for example if a god of a death was immune to PWK but PWK could bypass stat block via the polymorph spell then its as if polymorph stripes the power of a god. To me that just seems silly and fundamentally changes the function of polymorph. It also makes it so that what many players would normally use as a buff for example wild shapes and other polymorph spells become severe debuffs with no warning.
That is an OK opinion and I think reasonable for a house rule. However, I personally don't think it is bad advice because it is RAW. PWK is really one of the few (or maybe only) way to kill something without doing damage. I think they should probably do this differently in the next edition. However, RAW that is the way it currently works.
As I pointed out in a pervious point, PWK kills things but does zero damage. So you are dead with hit points. As you note, PWK is equally strong against wild shaped druids.
Your example of a God... well if you can land polymorph on a God then that is a major achievement. Most Gods would not fail that roll and if they did they would have a legendary resistance to succeed anyway. So, If you can get the God to fail a Polymorph save then maybe you deserve to be able to PWK them.
Phantom Steed plus Eldritch Blast+Grasp of Hadar. Let's you run up walls/trees, up enemies and drop for falling damage plus the usual EBlast.
Glyph of Warding + and concentration mass debuff, like Sickening Radiance, Evard's Black Tentacles, Maelstrom, or even Hypnotic Pattern. Best defense if there is only 1 way to the party camp and the monsters are smart enough to want gold.