I'm making a Changeling Echo Knight for a level twenty one shot. The DM said that it was going to be extremely difficult adventure so I need some help with tactics. We start with 2 uncommon items and a rare item as well as 20,000 gp. So far, I've come up with a good ambushing build but any suggestions would be great.
Your DM is a bum. By level 20, most people would have either one legendary or a few very rare items. And they said it was going to be hard!?! Who needs tactics when you have the sword of Kars?!?!? Ask for some better magic items. Use your GP to get an adamantine weapons, so you always get a critical hit when you hit.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Your DM is a bum. By level 20, most people would have either one legendary or a few very rare items. And they said it was going to be hard!?! Who needs tactics when you have the sword of Kars?!?!? Ask for some better magic items. Use your GP to get an adamantine weapons, so you always get a critical hit when you hit.
Adamantine weapons only score automatic critical hits on objects not creatures. I agree though that 2 uncommon and 1 rare seems pretty stingy. In times like this though, never discount the power of two immovable rods.
For what kind of campaign? A very low magic one. If that is the world, fine, but your DM is still a bum. Especially when they said it would be extremely difficult.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
It was the recommended starting loot for a standard magic campaign in the DMG
At 20th level? That sounds appropriate for maybe up to 12th-13th level. In Adventurers League, a 20th level character can (and probably will) have 10 magic items.
Grabbing an aggressive spell off Magic Initiate seems wasted when your casting stat for it is a +0. Maximizing your Dex seems like a way better use of that feat (or Mobile, if you want the cantrips). A higher to-hit is going to be very relevant with Sharpshooter.
Now that I've read through the Echo Knight a bit it seems that it is begging to be used in melee. Run up to a group, attack, swap places with echo. Then either your echo takes attacks that would have been directed at you or you get an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space. With a GWM/PAM build, that extra opportunity attack adds up to a lot of damage and stopping potential at minimal risk.
I'll agree with Kestral287 that there's no excuse to not have your attack stat at 20 by level 20. If you still want all the feats, just lower your charisma or something.
After reading your character, nothing really stood out to me as being an ambusher. How do you envision your ambush going?
In particular regarding melee vs ranged combat for the Echo Knight - the third level extra attack feature requires a melee attack. Granted that feature scales negatively in that it's strongest at level 3 and weakest at level 20, but an extra attack is still an extra attack. The mobility options of the echo are also, as pwhimp noted, made strongest with melee attackers; a ranged attacker (especially one with both mobile to disengage and crossbow expert to use ranged attacks in melee) doesn't need the mobility tools nearly as badly as a melee one. An echo being used to reposition yourself 30 feet matters a lot when you're in the thick of a fight and almost not at all when you're 120 feet away from the closest attacker.
I could send out an echo of myself as a distraction and attack from melee in that position as well as shooting a crossbow from the side. If they zero in on my true self I can escape to the last echo somewhere else. That echo could be used to make sure they don't take cover. Or I could use the distraction echo to grapple an enemy.
Since Echo Knight's Echo is not considered a creature, is it considered on the same level as spiritual weapon? Can a rogue take advantage of it for a sneak attack? Can it work with other PCs using the help action?
I'm just trying to clarify this for a player in my one shot game.
I could send out an echo of myself as a distraction and attack from melee in that position as well as shooting a crossbow from the side. If they zero in on my true self I can escape to the last echo somewhere else. That echo could be used to make sure they don't take cover. Or I could use the distraction echo to grapple an enemy.
Keep in mind the echos have to be close to you. You're almost in melee range yourself at that point, which means you'll almost have to use your second plan to escape... but that can only be another 30 feet away at best. With the size and speed of a lot of monsters you'll find at 20th level, 30 feet is still easily within striking distance. Not to mention how many high-level creatures have extra senses, which you also have to be within 30 or so feet of.
Those aren't crippling problems but they do make the sniper/ambush style of play very difficult.
Since Echo Knight's Echo is not considered a creature, is it considered on the same level as spiritual weapon? Can a rogue take advantage of it for a sneak attack? Can it work with other PCs using the help action?
I'm just trying to clarify this for a player in my one shot game.
By RAW, no to both. Personally I'd be pretty willing to allow for the Rogue bit since the echo can make opportunity attacks where Spiritual Weapon can't, and the threatening nature is kind of where sneak attack comes from, but even that is a bit of a stretch. Help action is right out.
Note that Skulker doesn't let you hide as a bonus action, so you can only move in any turn in which you attack by swapping with an echo, with the 15 foot range limit therein. Not a damning thing, again, but a lot of monsters are just going to go to where you attacked and then find you with their blindsight or very high perceptions anyway. Something that's very hit or miss doesn't seem worth a feat slot at level 20. A Rogue dip costs you 25% of your damage output (plus or minus 1d6 sometimes), which also doesn't seem particularly worthwhile.
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I'm making a Changeling Echo Knight for a level twenty one shot. The DM said that it was going to be extremely difficult adventure so I need some help with tactics. We start with 2 uncommon items and a rare item as well as 20,000 gp. So far, I've come up with a good ambushing build but any suggestions would be great.
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Your DM is a bum. By level 20, most people would have either one legendary or a few very rare items. And they said it was going to be hard!?! Who needs tactics when you have the sword of Kars?!?!? Ask for some better magic items. Use your GP to get an adamantine weapons, so you always get a critical hit when you hit.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
Adamantine weapons only score automatic critical hits on objects not creatures. I agree though that 2 uncommon and 1 rare seems pretty stingy. In times like this though, never discount the power of two immovable rods.
It was the recommended starting loot for a standard magic campaign in the DMG
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For what kind of campaign? A very low magic one. If that is the world, fine, but your DM is still a bum. Especially when they said it would be extremely difficult.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
At 20th level? That sounds appropriate for maybe up to 12th-13th level. In Adventurers League, a 20th level character can (and probably will) have 10 magic items.
Leaving alone the fact that this is completely by the book starting equipment for a standard tier 4 campaign (minus about 1000gp).
What kind of build are you going for? What feats did you take? Glamored armor might help disguises when shapeshifting.
So far this is what I've got:
ddb.ac/characters/25760436/jeSPcP
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Grabbing an aggressive spell off Magic Initiate seems wasted when your casting stat for it is a +0. Maximizing your Dex seems like a way better use of that feat (or Mobile, if you want the cantrips). A higher to-hit is going to be very relevant with Sharpshooter.
Now that I've read through the Echo Knight a bit it seems that it is begging to be used in melee. Run up to a group, attack, swap places with echo. Then either your echo takes attacks that would have been directed at you or you get an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space. With a GWM/PAM build, that extra opportunity attack adds up to a lot of damage and stopping potential at minimal risk.
I'll agree with Kestral287 that there's no excuse to not have your attack stat at 20 by level 20. If you still want all the feats, just lower your charisma or something.
After reading your character, nothing really stood out to me as being an ambusher. How do you envision your ambush going?
In particular regarding melee vs ranged combat for the Echo Knight - the third level extra attack feature requires a melee attack. Granted that feature scales negatively in that it's strongest at level 3 and weakest at level 20, but an extra attack is still an extra attack. The mobility options of the echo are also, as pwhimp noted, made strongest with melee attackers; a ranged attacker (especially one with both mobile to disengage and crossbow expert to use ranged attacks in melee) doesn't need the mobility tools nearly as badly as a melee one. An echo being used to reposition yourself 30 feet matters a lot when you're in the thick of a fight and almost not at all when you're 120 feet away from the closest attacker.
I could send out an echo of myself as a distraction and attack from melee in that position as well as shooting a crossbow from the side. If they zero in on my true self I can escape to the last echo somewhere else. That echo could be used to make sure they don't take cover. Or I could use the distraction echo to grapple an enemy.
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Different question:
Since Echo Knight's Echo is not considered a creature, is it considered on the same level as spiritual weapon? Can a rogue take advantage of it for a sneak attack? Can it work with other PCs using the help action?
I'm just trying to clarify this for a player in my one shot game.
Keep in mind the echos have to be close to you. You're almost in melee range yourself at that point, which means you'll almost have to use your second plan to escape... but that can only be another 30 feet away at best. With the size and speed of a lot of monsters you'll find at 20th level, 30 feet is still easily within striking distance. Not to mention how many high-level creatures have extra senses, which you also have to be within 30 or so feet of.
Those aren't crippling problems but they do make the sniper/ambush style of play very difficult.
By RAW, no to both. Personally I'd be pretty willing to allow for the Rogue bit since the echo can make opportunity attacks where Spiritual Weapon can't, and the threatening nature is kind of where sneak attack comes from, but even that is a bit of a stretch. Help action is right out.
Matt Mercer already said there's no Flanking with an Echo, so you can't use it to get Advantage, so it can't help you with Sneak Attack.
With Skulker I could try to hide after each attack I make. Or I could take a level in rogue to get cunning action.
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Note that Skulker doesn't let you hide as a bonus action, so you can only move in any turn in which you attack by swapping with an echo, with the 15 foot range limit therein. Not a damning thing, again, but a lot of monsters are just going to go to where you attacked and then find you with their blindsight or very high perceptions anyway. Something that's very hit or miss doesn't seem worth a feat slot at level 20. A Rogue dip costs you 25% of your damage output (plus or minus 1d6 sometimes), which also doesn't seem particularly worthwhile.