First, there is a difference between "at level 20" and "throught the play". You seem to only be concerned about level 20, while my original comparison was a throughout play comparison, where it was a clear advantage to warlock 2/sorc 18. For example, at max, spells slots do not go up for Sorc 18.
Second, pact boons are NOT better than or harder to replicate than a 18th level abilities. Pact of the Chain is an improved Familiar and Find Familiar is a 1st level spell. Basically, Pact of the Chain is maybe the equivalent of a 4th level spell. Pact boons are basically worth 2 feats, and so are most subclass abilities. But we are talking about the 18th level class ability so it is actually slightly BETTER than a pact boon. The only time Pact Boons become better than a subclass ability is if you use it as a pre-req for invocations. But you only get 2, of minimal level and you already want Agonizing Blast. So no, the pact boon is not worth it.
Let's look at level 20 only.
Sorceror 17/Warlock 3 vs Sorc 18/War 3
Advantages for S17/W3
+1 hp on average
Pact Boon
1 warlock spell known
2 first level spell slots upgraded to 2nd level spell slots
Advantage S18/W2
+1 SP
Sorc Origin feature (Divine: Bonus Action, 1/long rest, recover half max hp if hp below 50%, Shadow: Umbral form for 1 minute costing you 6 sorcer point) These abilities can be approximated by spells etc, but they are high level abilities, effectively granting you something similar to a 6th or 7th level form.
1 5th level spell slot
Clearly the Sorceror has advantages on spell slots, adding a single 5th level spell slot is better than upgrading 2 1st level slots into 2 2nd level slots.
A single extra HP and a single extra warlock spell of 1st or 2nd level is clearly not worth the extra SP.
That leaves the question will your Pact Boon be worth the Sorc Origin feature. As I said earlier, Umbral Form and Unearthly Recovery are comparable if not better than then any of the Pact Boons.
For me it is clear, the 17/3 build is better than the 18/2 build. I see no contest at all.
Assuming that the extra sorcerer spell slot gained is converted to SP. The 5th level spell slot will grant 5 SP per long rest (7 if the DM follows the chart despite that not being how it's worded.) Acknowledging that the warlock slots would grant 2 additional SP (4 if we're giving 7 to the 5th, I'm ignoring this moving on) at this point and the additional point for Sorcerer 18, that means that the 17/3 character would have to take 3 short rests per long rest to have the same number of SP available. Anything above that is in favor of the 17/3 that gains an extra 2 SP via Warlock Spell slot regeneration on a short rest vs the 18/2. Factor in the usefulness of that fifth level slot per long rest vs two additional second level slots per short rest and you may say that the overall break even point is closer to 2 or 4 short rests, depending on whether you value a big spell or more casts of a smaller spell (this is will generally favor the 5th slot but I'll leave the count at 3 and let the player work that out on their own).
As for the ability, we all know that not all abilities are equal. Generally calling an ability worth two feats is fine, but the ability may do nothing for the player's character concept. If the player is saying that they value the pact boon over the 18th level ability, then they'll get more value from it, particularly since they can get that much sooner in their career and take advantage of it longer. If the choice is made between Sorcerer 18 and Warlock 3, then the value of those abilities can compared directly. However, if the choice of Warlock 3 is taken earlier, then the value of Warlock 3 increases versus Sorcerer 18 (but don't forget to discount the value of the Sorcerer levels that will be delayed by taking Warlock 3 before them). This same discussion would have to be considered with the spell slot discussion above. You'll have plenty of time to increase value in SP with 2nd level Warlock slots over a fifth level slot (the SP on level gained would be a sunk cost regardless of when Warlock 3 was taken, since you'll always be a point behind in that regard).
This is why I don't recommend using absolutes when it comes to costs. What is too costly for one player is cheap to another and rarely are the costs comparable at face value since the timing of one versus the other is off.
While I do see both points and I do believe that neither idea is FAR superior to the other to completely discount it. I look at it like this
The odds of the final level ability being a factor and coming into play is low and I have to ask myself is it so good that It means that what I gain from the Warlock level is not worth it for that chance if we go to 20, Now yes it is giving up a 5th level spell slot which is 5 sorc points so by that count it would be somewhat better to go Sorc as the odds of doing more than 2-3 short rests a day are few and far between so from a pure damage output thinking I actually agree that 18/2 is the better idea. Pure damage only. That said its not like those Sorc points are buffing each attack as such, that 1 extra point wont often make a huge difference in a fight in terms of damage if im converting my points between fights as there aren't that many things that can take 8 quickened sets of EB and that's assuming i'm alone. So damage wise...its basically the same thanks to the way that Cantrips power up.
So in reality neither style will be largely affecting my damage output and only hurt my utility a little from the Sorc spell loss but not enough to discount what I gain.
So you have to compare 3 things really because the spell slot isn't a huge difference in power nor is the delay in spells as pretty much all the damage comes from a Cantrip
So then to me It is entirely Pact Boon vs Umbral Form vs Unearthly Recovery.
And to me the Pact boon is actually the most useful. Unearthly Recovery can be copied with a Heal spell As I wouldn't be getting it until level 20 it'd 100% have access to this and to a lot of characters 70 is comparable to half. Ok UR is a bonus action and very good don't get me wrong it as I said can be replicated by spells. Umbral Form I don't think id really use much. 6 SP is expensive. Then there's Pact Boon. To me the best one of these is easily Pact of the Chain. It was claimed that Find Familiar is a level 1 spell and if you count what you get from Pact of the Chain it is equiv to Maybe level 4....but its not because there isn't a level 4 that gives you a familiar that can speak and have invisibility forever, it doesn't exist. And this is why its the best option to me. Not only do I get to play with this from level 8 onwards but I do feel its something that will get mileage.
The joy of the Sorlock is that outside of maybe a Fireball I don't need to grab damaging spells much as the EB will do most of the work so I can play with a TONNE of utility which this brings
Pick variant human, pick a background that doesn’t give a feat so you get Magic Initiate, and choose warlock. Boom Eldritch blast. Choose Eldritch adept as your human feat and pick agonizing blast. Congratulations, you are now a pure sorcerer who goes brrrrt like a warlock.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Assuming that the extra sorcerer spell slot gained is converted to SP. The 5th level spell slot will grant 5 SP per long rest (7 if the DM follows the chart despite that not being how it's worded.) Acknowledging that the warlock slots would grant 2 additional SP (4 if we're giving 7 to the 5th, I'm ignoring this moving on) at this point and the additional point for Sorcerer 18, that means that the 17/3 character would have to take 3 short rests per long rest to have the same number of SP available. Anything above that is in favor of the 17/3 that gains an extra 2 SP via Warlock Spell slot regeneration on a short rest vs the 18/2. Factor in the usefulness of that fifth level slot per long rest vs two additional second level slots per short rest and you may say that the overall break even point is closer to 2 or 4 short rests, depending on whether you value a big spell or more casts of a smaller spell (this is will generally favor the 5th slot but I'll leave the count at 3 and let the player work that out on their own).
As for the ability, we all know that not all abilities are equal. Generally calling an ability worth two feats is fine, but the ability may do nothing for the player's character concept. If the player is saying that they value the pact boon over the 18th level ability, then they'll get more value from it, particularly since they can get that much sooner in their career and take advantage of it longer. If the choice is made between Sorcerer 18 and Warlock 3, then the value of those abilities can compared directly. However, if the choice of Warlock 3 is taken earlier, then the value of Warlock 3 increases versus Sorcerer 18 (but don't forget to discount the value of the Sorcerer levels that will be delayed by taking Warlock 3 before them). This same discussion would have to be considered with the spell slot discussion above. You'll have plenty of time to increase value in SP with 2nd level Warlock slots over a fifth level slot (the SP on level gained would be a sunk cost regardless of when Warlock 3 was taken, since you'll always be a point behind in that regard).
This is why I don't recommend using absolutes when it comes to costs. What is too costly for one player is cheap to another and rarely are the costs comparable at face value since the timing of one versus the other is off.
While I do see both points and I do believe that neither idea is FAR superior to the other to completely discount it. I look at it like this
The odds of the final level ability being a factor and coming into play is low and I have to ask myself is it so good that It means that what I gain from the Warlock level is not worth it for that chance if we go to 20, Now yes it is giving up a 5th level spell slot which is 5 sorc points so by that count it would be somewhat better to go Sorc as the odds of doing more than 2-3 short rests a day are few and far between so from a pure damage output thinking I actually agree that 18/2 is the better idea. Pure damage only. That said its not like those Sorc points are buffing each attack as such, that 1 extra point wont often make a huge difference in a fight in terms of damage if im converting my points between fights as there aren't that many things that can take 8 quickened sets of EB and that's assuming i'm alone. So damage wise...its basically the same thanks to the way that Cantrips power up.
So in reality neither style will be largely affecting my damage output and only hurt my utility a little from the Sorc spell loss but not enough to discount what I gain.
So you have to compare 3 things really because the spell slot isn't a huge difference in power nor is the delay in spells as pretty much all the damage comes from a Cantrip
So then to me It is entirely Pact Boon vs Umbral Form vs Unearthly Recovery.
And to me the Pact boon is actually the most useful. Unearthly Recovery can be copied with a Heal spell As I wouldn't be getting it until level 20 it'd 100% have access to this and to a lot of characters 70 is comparable to half. Ok UR is a bonus action and very good don't get me wrong it as I said can be replicated by spells. Umbral Form I don't think id really use much. 6 SP is expensive. Then there's Pact Boon. To me the best one of these is easily Pact of the Chain. It was claimed that Find Familiar is a level 1 spell and if you count what you get from Pact of the Chain it is equiv to Maybe level 4....but its not because there isn't a level 4 that gives you a familiar that can speak and have invisibility forever, it doesn't exist. And this is why its the best option to me. Not only do I get to play with this from level 8 onwards but I do feel its something that will get mileage.
The joy of the Sorlock is that outside of maybe a Fireball I don't need to grab damaging spells much as the EB will do most of the work so I can play with a TONNE of utility which this brings
Pick variant human, pick a background that doesn’t give a feat so you get Magic Initiate, and choose warlock. Boom Eldritch blast. Choose Eldritch adept as your human feat and pick agonizing blast. Congratulations, you are now a pure sorcerer who goes brrrrt like a warlock.