Some choices are just not good, and some combinations just don't work well. Why it's considered such a horrible act of Hate Crimes Against Players to try and let them know, or at least make sure they know what they're getting into, I will never understand.
Though I think there's some philosophy issue there (which I admit to being on one side of): some subset of players is prone to making choices without thinking about whether those choices are good. That same subset of players is also resistant to being told "you know, that choice is bad".
Telling people some options are bad/don't work/don't do what they think they do can sometimes be an art form, yeah. There's a difference between telling someone "you suck your choices are bad and you should feel bad" and "you may want to consider [Approach B] rather than [Approach A]; here's my reasoning, if you've a moment?"
As absolutely sick as I am of talking about it, sadly there's no better example than Grappler.
There's a couple objectively terrible feats, though I admit Grappler is pretty uniquely bad, as you can actually do what it does better for free (just use Shove to knock it prone; it's exactly the same difficulty, and as a speed 0 creature cannot stand up, it will remain that way until the grapple ends).
Restrain is not that much better than Shove/Prone as to make grappler any better either....Its mildly better but at a huge cost to the grappler.
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again. It was memorable and awesome, and it became a common tactic. And it proved incredibly effective. Enemies could not retreat. Every attack had advantage; range didn't matter. And the barbarian was still reliably getting in hits while using their damage resistance to hold out. In essence, they were tanking solo enemies. It was less effective on Strahd in the castle, but it was still fun for a while. And, come on, it's Strahd."
Why didn't Strahd just attack the restrained barbarian? Or simply move the barbarian? Or polymorph the barbarian? Or attack the wizard who was concentrating?
This story has more holes than swiss cheese.
Bad strategy doesn't validate the feat lol
Because they were only 5th-level and in the streets of Vallaki; right after getting hit with a fireball in Wachterhaus that K.O.'d half the party. And that was because the wizard successfully spent their only counterspell on animate objects.
Don't nitpick. The story doesn't have holes. They were fighting Izek on fumes. Strahd was playing with them, as he should have been.
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again. It was memorable and awesome, and it became a common tactic. And it proved incredibly effective. Enemies could not retreat. Every attack had advantage; range didn't matter. And the barbarian was still reliably getting in hits while using their damage resistance to hold out. In essence, they were tanking solo enemies. It was less effective on Strahd in the castle, but it was still fun for a while. And, come on, it's Strahd."
Why didn't Strahd just attack the restrained barbarian? Or simply move the barbarian? Or polymorph the barbarian? Or attack the wizard who was concentrating?
This story has more holes than swiss cheese.
Bad strategy doesn't validate the feat lol
Because they were only 5th-level and in the streets of Vallaki; right after getting hit with a fireball in Wachterhaus that K.O.'d half the party. And that was because the wizard successfully spent their only counterspell on animate objects.
Don't nitpick. The story doesn't have holes. They were fighting Izek on fumes. Strahd was playing with them, as he should have been.
It has a bunch of holes....
That barbarian would have been better off shoving him prone and grappling.
Grapple/Prone would mean he would be attacking him at advantage and Izek would be attacking him at disadvantage even in his croc form
Grappler they are both restrained meaning they are both attacking each other normally which is worse.
Grapple/Prone he could drag him away from Strahd so that he could avoid polymorph in the first place.
Grappler he can't move at all once he pins him.
Grapple/Prone the barbarian is not restrained so other creatures (Strahd) hit him normally
Grappler he is restrained so Strahd gets advantage.
This is a great example of why grappler is actually terrible.
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again. It was memorable and awesome, and it became a common tactic. And it proved incredibly effective. Enemies could not retreat. Every attack had advantage; range didn't matter. And the barbarian was still reliably getting in hits while using their damage resistance to hold out. In essence, they were tanking solo enemies. It was less effective on Strahd in the castle, but it was still fun for a while. And, come on, it's Strahd."
Why didn't Strahd just attack the restrained barbarian? Or simply move the barbarian? Or polymorph the barbarian? Or attack the wizard who was concentrating?
This story has more holes than swiss cheese.
Bad strategy doesn't validate the feat lol
Because they were only 5th-level and in the streets of Vallaki; right after getting hit with a fireball in Wachterhaus that K.O.'d half the party. And that was because the wizard successfully spent their only counterspell on animate objects.
Don't nitpick. The story doesn't have holes. They were fighting Izek on fumes. Strahd was playing with them, as he should have been.
It has a bunch of holes....
That barbarian would have been better off shoving him prone and grappling.
Grapple/Prone would mean he would be attacking him at advantage and Izek would be attacking him at disadvantage even in his croc form
Grappler they are both restrained meaning they are both attacking each other normally which is worse.
Grapple/Prone he could drag him away from Strahd so that he could avoid polymorph in the first place.
Grappler he can't move at all once he pins him.
Grapple/Prone the barbarian is not restrained so other creatures (Strahd) hit him normally
Grappler he is restrained so Strahd gets advantage.
This is a great example of why grappler is actually terrible.
The barbarian took a feat they wanted, did what they wanted to do, and was wildly successful not just in one encounter but across multiple encounters during the campaign.
If you think those are holes, then you fail at basic comprehension. I mean, you can only keep stating your opinion. But since ignorance has never been a valid point of view, I don't know what else I can say. Are you hoping for an ignore so you can say you win?
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again.
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again.
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
Exactly....
Its actively worse than Grapple/Prone especially in that example.
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again.
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
Exactly....
Its actively worse than Grapple/Prone especially in that example.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again.
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
Exactly....
Its actively worse than Grapple/Prone especially in that example.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
I guess a lot of times when its obvious there is a better solution. Honestly if this the best story you have for grappler then I am convinced it is just a "Broken" feat as it performs worse than I thought in extended play.
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again.
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
Exactly....
Its actively worse than Grapple/Prone especially in that example.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
I guess a lot of times when its obvious there is a better solution. Honestly if this the best story you have for grappler then I am convinced it is just a "Broken" feat as it performs worse than I thought in extended play.
I'm curious, why do you keep responding to me? We both know there's no budging the other. Are you just trying to show everyone that your opinions are better?
"I would not recommend Grappler for someone with an odd ability score. I would push for Tavern Brawler first. But, if you have the ASIs to spare to pick it up, go for it, absolutely. That said, one of my players in a Curse of Strahd campaign was a shifter barbarian who picked it up at level 4. They used it to grapple and restrain Izek after he was mind-controlled by Strahd. Then I had Strahd polymorph Izek into a giant crocodile to instantly break free; to which the wizard cast enlarge/reduce and he was functionally out of the fight again.
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
Exactly....
Its actively worse than Grapple/Prone especially in that example.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
I guess a lot of times when its obvious there is a better solution. Honestly if this the best story you have for grappler then I am convinced it is just a "Broken" feat as it performs worse than I thought in extended play.
I'm curious, why do you keep responding to me? We both know there's no budging the other. Are you just trying to show everyone that your opinions are better?
Well you did ask a question. I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic with "broken" concepts and I actually find it interesting that there are "broken" things in the game on the other side of the coin.
At this point I guess we should agree to disagree on grappler.
Animate Objects is the one spell I think is way overturned on the other end.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
The point is, you can do all that stuff without bothering with the Grappler feat. If your party is mostly ranged, grab them and move them out of melee range. This takes only one attack (instead of 2), means they cannot melee attack the rest of the party, and they have disadvantage (because of being in close combat) on ranged attacks. If your party is mostly melee, grab them and knock them prone (exactly the same difficulty as restraining with grappler); this is almost as bad for the creature, and far less debilitating for the barbarian.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
The point is, you can do all that stuff without bothering with the Grappler feat. If your party is mostly ranged, grab them and move them out of melee range. This takes only one attack (instead of 2), means they cannot melee attack the rest of the party, and they have disadvantage (because of being in close combat) on ranged attacks. If your party is mostly melee, grab them and knock them prone (exactly the same difficulty as restraining with grappler); this is almost as bad for the creature, and far less debilitating for the barbarian.
Yeah, it could be done without the grappler feat. But maybe not as effectively. And no matter which way it's done, there's always a cost; like expending a spell slot or needing to carry very specific gear. The feat is just another tool for the toolbox. That's why it's so weird so many people are so averse to it. It's a harmless choice.
It's putting out like 50 damage as a Bonus Action for up to 10 rounds or 500 damage.
Due to the defense of the objects it's going to take a CR appropriate creature about 2 rounds to kill a single tiny object. Even with AoE they can save for half and not die.
It's putting out like 50 damage as a Bonus Action for up to 10 rounds or 500 damage.
Due to the defense of the objects it's going to take a CR appropriate creature about 2 rounds to kill a single tiny object. Even with AoE they can save for half and not die.
It absolutely can, so the DM needs to be cognizant of what's on the battlefield to be animated. A dining room could be lethal if all the flatware is out for a meal, but if they're locked in a cabinet then you're stuck with the larger furniture. A few chairs aren't too impressive, but it could be funny. A long table rearing up would be memorable.
I don't know that I'd allow a few coins from a belt pouch, or stones from the ground. That seems a little too easy to abuse. But a cart or barrel in the street?
It's putting out like 50 damage as a Bonus Action for up to 10 rounds or 500 damage.
Due to the defense of the objects it's going to take a CR appropriate creature about 2 rounds to kill a single tiny object. Even with AoE they can save for half and not die.
It absolutely can, so the DM needs to be cognizant of what's on the battlefield to be animated. A dining room could be lethal if all the flatware is out for a meal, but if they're locked in a cabinet then you're stuck with the larger furniture. A few chairs aren't too impressive, but it could be funny. A long table rearing up would be memorable.
I don't know that I'd allow a few coins from a belt pouch, or stones from the ground. That seems a little too easy to abuse. But a cart or barrel in the street?
I generally see ball bearings used as they are easy to carry at all times.
It's putting out like 50 damage as a Bonus Action for up to 10 rounds or 500 damage.
Due to the defense of the objects it's going to take a CR appropriate creature about 2 rounds to kill a single tiny object. Even with AoE they can save for half and not die.
It absolutely can, so the DM needs to be cognizant of what's on the battlefield to be animated. A dining room could be lethal if all the flatware is out for a meal, but if they're locked in a cabinet then you're stuck with the larger furniture. A few chairs aren't too impressive, but it could be funny. A long table rearing up would be memorable.
I don't know that I'd allow a few coins from a belt pouch, or stones from the ground. That seems a little too easy to abuse. But a cart or barrel in the street?
I generally see ball bearings used as they are easy to carry at all times.
Yeah...that ain't right. It's the same thing with animating coins, which ThinkDM used as an example. Technically not disallowed, but I do think it breaks the spirit.
When I think of objects that are animated, I think of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" from Fantasia (1940). You know, brooms with arms that waddle about. Or maybe the musical number "Be Our Guest" from Beauty and the Beast (1991), not Magneto's blood-iron from X2: X-Men United (2004).
Sorry for all the film references, but I figure they're ubiquitous enough to get the point across.
It's putting out like 50 damage as a Bonus Action for up to 10 rounds or 500 damage.
Due to the defense of the objects it's going to take a CR appropriate creature about 2 rounds to kill a single tiny object. Even with AoE they can save for half and not die.
It absolutely can, so the DM needs to be cognizant of what's on the battlefield to be animated. A dining room could be lethal if all the flatware is out for a meal, but if they're locked in a cabinet then you're stuck with the larger furniture. A few chairs aren't too impressive, but it could be funny. A long table rearing up would be memorable.
I don't know that I'd allow a few coins from a belt pouch, or stones from the ground. That seems a little too easy to abuse. But a cart or barrel in the street?
I generally see ball bearings used as they are easy to carry at all times.
Yeah...that ain't right. It's the same thing with animating coins, which ThinkDM used as an example. Technically not disallowed, but I do think it breaks the spirit.
When I think of objects that are animated, I think of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" from Fantasia (1940). You know, brooms with arms that waddle about. Or maybe the musical number "Be Our Guest" from Beauty and the Beast (1991), not Magneto's blood-iron from X2: X-Men United (2004).
Sorry for all the film references, but I figure they're ubiquitous enough to get the point across.
That's why I think it's a good example of broken because I think the spirit of it is to do just that but it's easy to abuse RAW.
Overall I like his fixes.
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Restrain is not that much better than Shove/Prone as to make grappler any better either....Its mildly better but at a huge cost to the grappler.
Because they were only 5th-level and in the streets of Vallaki; right after getting hit with a fireball in Wachterhaus that K.O.'d half the party. And that was because the wizard successfully spent their only counterspell on animate objects.
Don't nitpick. The story doesn't have holes. They were fighting Izek on fumes. Strahd was playing with them, as he should have been.
It has a bunch of holes....
That barbarian would have been better off shoving him prone and grappling.
Grapple/Prone would mean he would be attacking him at advantage and Izek would be attacking him at disadvantage even in his croc form
Grappler they are both restrained meaning they are both attacking each other normally which is worse.
Grapple/Prone he could drag him away from Strahd so that he could avoid polymorph in the first place.
Grappler he can't move at all once he pins him.
Grapple/Prone the barbarian is not restrained so other creatures (Strahd) hit him normally
Grappler he is restrained so Strahd gets advantage.
This is a great example of why grappler is actually terrible.
The barbarian took a feat they wanted, did what they wanted to do, and was wildly successful not just in one encounter but across multiple encounters during the campaign.
If you think those are holes, then you fail at basic comprehension. I mean, you can only keep stating your opinion. But since ignorance has never been a valid point of view, I don't know what else I can say. Are you hoping for an ignore so you can say you win?
How is that out of the fight? Sure, it can't all that effectively attack the rest of the party, but it doesn't have any penalties to beating on the barbarian (its disadvantage is negated by the barbarian also being restrained).
Exactly....
Its actively worse than Grapple/Prone especially in that example.
First off, they had resistance to its attacks. Second, their attention was on the barbarian.
It's called a risk-reward payoff. How many times does someone have to tell you jackanapes?
I guess a lot of times when its obvious there is a better solution. Honestly if this the best story you have for grappler then I am convinced it is just a "Broken" feat as it performs worse than I thought in extended play.
I'm curious, why do you keep responding to me? We both know there's no budging the other. Are you just trying to show everyone that your opinions are better?
Well you did ask a question. I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic with "broken" concepts and I actually find it interesting that there are "broken" things in the game on the other side of the coin.
At this point I guess we should agree to disagree on grappler.
Animate Objects is the one spell I think is way overturned on the other end.
The point is, you can do all that stuff without bothering with the Grappler feat. If your party is mostly ranged, grab them and move them out of melee range. This takes only one attack (instead of 2), means they cannot melee attack the rest of the party, and they have disadvantage (because of being in close combat) on ranged attacks. If your party is mostly melee, grab them and knock them prone (exactly the same difficulty as restraining with grappler); this is almost as bad for the creature, and far less debilitating for the barbarian.
Yeah, it could be done without the grappler feat. But maybe not as effectively. And no matter which way it's done, there's always a cost; like expending a spell slot or needing to carry very specific gear. The feat is just another tool for the toolbox. That's why it's so weird so many people are so averse to it. It's a harmless choice.
Animate Objects has crazy damage output for a spell of it's level:
https://thinkdm.org/2020/07/11/animate-objects/
It's putting out like 50 damage as a Bonus Action for up to 10 rounds or 500 damage.
Due to the defense of the objects it's going to take a CR appropriate creature about 2 rounds to kill a single tiny object. Even with AoE they can save for half and not die.
It absolutely can, so the DM needs to be cognizant of what's on the battlefield to be animated. A dining room could be lethal if all the flatware is out for a meal, but if they're locked in a cabinet then you're stuck with the larger furniture. A few chairs aren't too impressive, but it could be funny. A long table rearing up would be memorable.
I don't know that I'd allow a few coins from a belt pouch, or stones from the ground. That seems a little too easy to abuse. But a cart or barrel in the street?
Yeah, summon weenies in general is a bit problematic (Summon Animals for CR 1/4 creatures is the same issue).
I generally see ball bearings used as they are easy to carry at all times.
Arrows are another good choice. Particularly since there's no rule against animating silver arrows.
Good point... Does that make the attacks silvered I assume?
Yeah...that ain't right. It's the same thing with animating coins, which ThinkDM used as an example. Technically not disallowed, but I do think it breaks the spirit.
When I think of objects that are animated, I think of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" from Fantasia (1940). You know, brooms with arms that waddle about. Or maybe the musical number "Be Our Guest" from Beauty and the Beast (1991), not Magneto's blood-iron from X2: X-Men United (2004).
Sorry for all the film references, but I figure they're ubiquitous enough to get the point across.
That's why I think it's a good example of broken because I think the spirit of it is to do just that but it's easy to abuse RAW.
Overall I like his fixes.