Playing an 11th level champion fighter/1st level forge cleric in RISE OF TIAMAT and trying to decide which feat to take as I’m about to level up in fighter. I have pole arm master, mounted combatant and the great weapon fighting style. Also have a magic weapon that does 2d6 but 5d6 against draconic creatures—very handy in this campaign. So factoring all that in and applying the “what AC to use GWM” formula I found online (MAX AC = ATTACK BONUS — DAMAGE/2 +16) I should use GWM when a creature’s AC is lower than 19 if it is non draconic, and lower than 16 if it is draconic. BUT what are these “should use GWM” numbers if I have advantage (which I often do due to mounted combatant) on the attack against non draconics? And against draconics? That will likely be the determining factor in taking it or not, or else probably going for the SLASHER feat. Thank you, math geniuses in advance!
I think the general rule for GWM is "If you have Advantage, take the -5/+10". I don't have the numbers to hand, but if I remember correctly it's very rarely better to do a normal attack when you have advantage.
Since the numbers without Advantage are 18 and 16 and your chane to hit goes up with advantage, the answer will be higher(probably significantly) so unless the AC of whatever you're trying to hit is monstrously high, you should almost always use it for the highest average damage.
Let me Save you the Trouble with the algebra, if you don’t have advantage GWM:
(16 + your attack Modifier) Subtract (1/2 the AVERAGE DAMAGE of your HEAVY WEAPON)
For Instance: My hexblade Dreslin DeVir's Glaive attack modifier is +7, and he deals 10 damage on average (1d10+5). He should only take the -5 to hit when the enemy's AC is less than or equal to 18 (16 + 7 - 10 ÷ 2)
Note: Don't ever take the penalty if you have disadvantage on the attack roll or if you can one-shot the creature with a normal weapon attack.
If you have ADVANTAGE on the attack roll the equation changes to (14 + your attack modifier).
So: if Dreslin has Advantage then he should take the penalty if the enemy's AC is 21(14 + 7) or less.
Big Note: If a target has AC equal to or greater than 20 + your normal attack bonus, always use GWM. There is no downside in this circumstance since you will only hit on a natural 20 anyways. But it rarely (if ever) comes up.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
Playing an 11th level champion fighter/1st level forge cleric in RISE OF TIAMAT and trying to decide which feat to take as I’m about to level up in fighter. I have pole arm master, mounted combatant and the great weapon fighting style. Also have a magic weapon that does 2d6 but 5d6 against draconic creatures—very handy in this campaign. So factoring all that in and applying the “what AC to use GWM” formula I found online (MAX AC = ATTACK BONUS — DAMAGE/2 +16) I should use GWM when a creature’s AC is lower than 19 if it is non draconic, and lower than 16 if it is draconic. BUT what are these “should use GWM” numbers if I have advantage (which I often do due to mounted combatant) on the attack against non draconics? And against draconics? That will likely be the determining factor in taking it or not, or else probably going for the SLASHER feat. Thank you, math geniuses in advance!
Okay, so if I'm reading this right you're a 12th-level character with 11 levels in fighter/champion and have spent your ASIs at fighter 4, 6, and 8 on feats; none of which add +1 to an ability. So, assuming you're using a standard array and aren't a variant human, the best you can manage is a Strength of 17 and a +3 ability modifier. This means your default attack is +7; boosted to +8 because of what I assume is a dragon slayer greatsword.
Here's the cool part: if you're just crit-fishing then you don't need to worry about the -5 to your attack roll. Assuming you have advantage, you have a 46.9% chance of landing a crit that round just from swinging your greatsword all 3 times. And with GWM, any crit triggers another swing of your sword as a bonus action.
But I'm also going to let you in on a secret: forget the math. Knowing not only how, but when, to optimize is a skill. And it's not one you need to play the game. So just take whatever sounds like fun. You can't go wrong.
Let me Save you the Trouble with the algebra, if you don’t have advantage GWM:
(16 + your attack Modifier) Subtract (1/2 the AVERAGE DAMAGE of your HEAVY WEAPON)
For Instance: My hexblade Dreslin DeVir's Glaive attack modifier is +7, and he deals 10 damage on average (1d10+5). He should only take the -5 to hit when the enemy's AC is less than or equal to 18 (16 + 7 - 10 ÷ 2)
Note: Don't ever take the penalty if you have disadvantage on the attack roll or if you can one-shot the creature with a normal weapon attack.
If you have ADVANTAGE on the attack roll the equation changes to (14 + your attack modifier).
So: if Dreslin has Advantage then he should take the penalty if the enemy's AC is 21(14 + 7) or less.
Big Note: If a target has AC equal to or greater than 20 + your normal attack bonus, always use GWM. There is no downside in this circumstance since you will only hit on a natural 20 anyways. But it rarely (if ever) comes up.
Average would be 10.5 for yours, and at 18 AC you’re averaging 5.25 hp of damage per attack without the GWM damage bonus, vs 5.125 hp of damage with it.
My advice for GWM is: when it doubt, don't take the penalty. The damage bonus isn't worth whiffing the attack roll. If your average damage is better than 10 points (and it should be with a Dragon Slayer Greatsword), you're better off hitting twice with normal attacks than once with a GWM power attack.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I actually did a spreadsheet for this. It's a little opaque, but you modify the first 3 columns for your proficiency bonus, ability modifier and magical weapon, and everything else updates automatically. It assumes a Greatsword (2d6), Great Weapons Fighter and does the expected damage if you choose to use the -5/+10 from Great Weapons Master. You will need to make a copy to change anything. I did another for a Halberd and a very different one for Sharpshooter, if anyone is interested.
MAN
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Playing an 11th level champion fighter/1st level forge cleric in RISE OF TIAMAT and trying to decide which feat to take as I’m about to level up in fighter. I have pole arm master, mounted combatant and the great weapon fighting style. Also have a magic weapon that does 2d6 but 5d6 against draconic creatures—very handy in this campaign. So factoring all that in and applying the “what AC to use GWM” formula I found online (MAX AC = ATTACK BONUS — DAMAGE/2 +16) I should use GWM when a creature’s AC is lower than 19 if it is non draconic, and lower than 16 if it is draconic. BUT what are these “should use GWM” numbers if I have advantage (which I often do due to mounted combatant) on the attack against non draconics? And against draconics? That will likely be the determining factor in taking it or not, or else probably going for the SLASHER feat. Thank you, math geniuses in advance!
I think the general rule for GWM is "If you have Advantage, take the -5/+10". I don't have the numbers to hand, but if I remember correctly it's very rarely better to do a normal attack when you have advantage.
Since the numbers without Advantage are 18 and 16 and your chane to hit goes up with advantage, the answer will be higher(probably significantly) so unless the AC of whatever you're trying to hit is monstrously high, you should almost always use it for the highest average damage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F3PCSFsk7p_BdCLmgeGBvYF-qFwEe_-IHNM3ei98luI/edit
Thats an old doc that’s been around a while. I didn’t create it.
I had a post about this a while back. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/79574-great-weapon-master-when-is-it-worth-it
Let me Save you the Trouble with the algebra, if you don’t have advantage GWM:
(16 + your attack Modifier) Subtract (1/2 the AVERAGE DAMAGE of your HEAVY WEAPON)
For Instance: My hexblade Dreslin DeVir's Glaive attack modifier is +7, and he deals 10 damage on average (1d10+5). He should only take the -5 to hit when the enemy's AC is less than or equal to 18 (16 + 7 - 10 ÷ 2)
Note: Don't ever take the penalty if you have disadvantage on the attack roll or if you can one-shot the creature with a normal weapon attack.
If you have ADVANTAGE on the attack roll the equation changes to (14 + your attack modifier).
So: if Dreslin has Advantage then he should take the penalty if the enemy's AC is 21(14 + 7) or less.
Big Note: If a target has AC equal to or greater than 20 + your normal attack bonus, always use GWM. There is no downside in this circumstance since you will only hit on a natural 20 anyways. But it rarely (if ever) comes up.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
Okay, so if I'm reading this right you're a 12th-level character with 11 levels in fighter/champion and have spent your ASIs at fighter 4, 6, and 8 on feats; none of which add +1 to an ability. So, assuming you're using a standard array and aren't a variant human, the best you can manage is a Strength of 17 and a +3 ability modifier. This means your default attack is +7; boosted to +8 because of what I assume is a dragon slayer greatsword.
Here's the cool part: if you're just crit-fishing then you don't need to worry about the -5 to your attack roll. Assuming you have advantage, you have a 46.9% chance of landing a crit that round just from swinging your greatsword all 3 times. And with GWM, any crit triggers another swing of your sword as a bonus action.
But I'm also going to let you in on a secret: forget the math. Knowing not only how, but when, to optimize is a skill. And it's not one you need to play the game. So just take whatever sounds like fun. You can't go wrong.
Breaking it down simply: The AC of the target and your attack bonus are only a means to figure out the natural dice roll needed to hit.
Step 1: Calculate total average damage without +10 GWM damage (call this one A)
Step 2: Calculate total average damage with +10 GWM damage (call this one B)
Step 3: For a given AC level, figure out the natural dice roll needed both with and without GWM added damage.
Step 4: Convert those to a percent chance to hit. For example, if you need to roll a natural 12, that's a 45% chance to hit.
Step 5: Multiply A and B by their corresponding chance to hit.
Which ever number is bigger, that gives you your largest average damage per attack.
Average would be 10.5 for yours, and at 18 AC you’re averaging 5.25 hp of damage per attack without the GWM damage bonus, vs 5.125 hp of damage with it.
If your strength score is 16 or 18, take +2 strength.
If your strength score is 15 or 17 and your constitution score is 13 or 15 it's probably best to take +1 strength and +1 constitution.
If your strength score is 15 or 17, and your constitution is 14 or 16, a half feat with +1 strength is probably a better choice.
Very helpful, everyone. Thank you!
My advice for GWM is: when it doubt, don't take the penalty. The damage bonus isn't worth whiffing the attack roll. If your average damage is better than 10 points (and it should be with a Dragon Slayer Greatsword), you're better off hitting twice with normal attacks than once with a GWM power attack.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I actually did a spreadsheet for this. It's a little opaque, but you modify the first 3 columns for your proficiency bonus, ability modifier and magical weapon, and everything else updates automatically. It assumes a Greatsword (2d6), Great Weapons Fighter and does the expected damage if you choose to use the -5/+10 from Great Weapons Master. You will need to make a copy to change anything. I did another for a Halberd and a very different one for Sharpshooter, if anyone is interested.
MAN