They are terrible. We need to go back to more realistic rules, and things like dying at 0hp. It is virtually impossible to accidentally kill a pc these days, excepting a crit against a level 1 character. Between multiple death saving throws, healing spells, spare the dying, healers kits etc. A dm has to deliberately try to kill a player for it to happen.
I have downed PC's without really trying, and had one of my PC's killed in a Dragon of Icespire Peak game, so my experience says otherwise.
They are terrible. We need to go back to more realistic rules, and things like dying at 0hp. It is virtually impossible to accidentally kill a pc these days, excepting a crit against a level 1 character. Between multiple death saving throws, healing spells, spare the dying, healers kits etc. A dm has to deliberately try to kill a player for it to happen.
I have downed PC's without really trying, and had one of my PC's killed in a Dragon of Icespire Peak game, so my experience says otherwise.
Then you either completely over cooked the difficulty of a fight, the players used incredibly bad tactics or made their characters badly. There is no real reason for a level appropriate encounter to become a tpk unless they do something stupid or get incredibly bad dice rolls over multiple rounds. If id does come purely down to dice rolls - well that’s just the will of the gods. Make some new characters and start over.
Yeah it's a relatively known fact that PC are easily killeable at level 1-2, especially with a critical hit from an Orc's greataxe or similar damage for exemple. I killed more than one character when running Dragon of Icespire Peak.
Orc and Ocre Jelly in Dwarven Excavation and Manticore in Umbrage Hill.
Yeah it's a relatively known fact that PC are easily killeable at level 1-2, especially with a critical hit from an Orc's greataxe or similar damage for exemple. I killed more than one character when running Dragon of Icespire Peak.
Orc and Ocre Jelly in Dwarven Excavation and Manticore in Umbrage Hill.
Oh, absolutely. For me, my PC was 2nd level, and we had a random encounter with Cryovain where we all lost out on initiative, and the DM rolled absurdly well on damage. Not your standard encounter, no, but them's the breaks sometimes.
Wether a designer's module or DM homebrew, a monster capable of dealing 1d12+3 or 2d6+2 can drop a L1-2 PC low on HP and can even outright kill one at Full HP with a lucky roll crit.
Are Grave Clerics the only ones that have an ability that is triggered by a Critical? What aspects of this change are there that we are not talking or thinking about?
Are Grave Clerics the only ones that have an ability that is triggered by a Critical? What aspects of this change are there that we are not talking or thinking about?
Adamantine Armor, and anything that rerolls an attack after the dice have been rolled. That's all I can think of.
The Piercer, Slasher and Crusher feats would still function but their abilities would have more of an impact in comparison to just doubling weapon damage.
That's false though, for one thing if they recharge in the same they do now you need to roll for a d6 to see if they regain the ability then actually use the ability which will probably have a roll or two as a part of it. That's far more moving parts then just 5 percent of the time roll a few more dice.
Oh yea, I forgot about the d6 roll. Upon reflection I think you make a good point, if indeed we suddenly see lots of monsters with new 'recharging' abilities.
Then you either completely over cooked the difficulty of a fight, the players used incredibly bad tactics or made their characters badly.
Soooooo...encounters are poorly built if they down a player, even though moments ago you were complaining that PC's can't be killed?
That’s not even remotely what I said and you know it. Your comment was that you were effortlessly able to take out player characters in your game. I have no issue with taking down characters but it shouldn’t be effortless. It should be a challenge unless either the monsters are too powerful or the players use stupid tactics. My response is very clear and simple to understand, so clearly you are being awkward just because.
Yeah it's a relatively known fact that PC are easily killeable at level 1-2, especially with a critical hit from an Orc's greataxe or similar damage for exemple. I killed more than one character when running Dragon of Icespire Peak.
Orc and Ocre Jelly in Dwarven Excavation and Manticore in Umbrage Hill.
Oh, absolutely. For me, my PC was 2nd level, and we had a random encounter with Cryovain where we all lost out on initiative, and the DM rolled absurdly well on damage. Not your standard encounter, no, but them's the breaks sometimes.
Oh, so you were deliberately misreading my post then. A dragon - even a young dragon with a CR of 6 is definitely not level appropriate for a group of level 2 characters. A 30ft cone doing 10d8 with a fairly substantial con saving throw dc is what would be called overcooking an encounter. Man you literally proved my point for me.
Yeah it's a relatively known fact that PC are easily killeable at level 1-2, especially with a critical hit from an Orc's greataxe or similar damage for exemple. I killed more than one character when running Dragon of Icespire Peak.
But I specifically said that at level 1 it is easy to kill off a character or even tpk a party by accident. That’s a well known thing and a reason why many games start at level 3 or higher. In fact I once watched a streamed paid game where a ‘professional’ dm tpk’d a party of brand new first time players on the very first goblin ambush in the opening section of LMoP. His reaction was hilarious. He put in a few extra goblins with bows because he thought they could handle it (the party was lvl1 and comprised a barbarian, ranger, rogue, and wizard).
There is no question at lower levels it is easily done, but removing crits won’t change the fact that a goblin with a +4 to hit short bow attack does 1d6+2 damage and could potentially take out a wizard with an AC of 14/15 and 8hp (assuming 14 con) and that’s with a regular albeit lucky hit and damage roll. Stopping the goblin getting extra damage makes no difference to that outcome. So the changes do absolutely nothing other on the rare occasion a crit gets rolled.
Then you either completely over cooked the difficulty of a fight, the players used incredibly bad tactics or made their characters badly. There is no real reason for a level appropriate encounter to become a tpk unless they do something stupid or get incredibly bad dice rolls over multiple rounds.
Deadly encounters have no upper limit, except arguably your entire daily budget in a single fight (admittedly, I have seen modules where single encounters not only exceeded the deadly budget, they exceeded the daily budget), and it's worse at level 1 -- a brown bear can perfectly easily hit for 9 and 11 in a single turn and is just a medium encounter.
FWIW, Cryovain vs a party of 4 at level 2 is less than the daily budget.
A level 6 creature is a suitable threat for an average (read unoptimised) group of 4 level 6 characters. It’s completely overpowered for a group of level 2 characters.
A single brown bear is a solid threat to a group of 4 level 1 players if they charge into melee. That said it has an AC of 11 and 34hp, so should be brought down in 2 rounds. If the players think about what they are doing though they should realise that and used ranged attacks and spells. A grizzly will take out a person in the real world without breaking a sweat, so it should be commonsense.
That’s not even remotely what I said and you know it. Your comment was that you were effortlessly able to take out player characters in your game. I have no issue with taking down characters but it shouldn’t be effortless. It should be a challenge unless either the monsters are too powerful or the players use stupid tactics. My response is very clear and simple to understand, so clearly you are being awkward just because.
With respect, you don't have the slightest idea how I run my games, nor do you know how my players act in them. Do not presume that you do.
Yeah it's a relatively known fact that PC are easily killeable at level 1-2, especially with a critical hit from an Orc's greataxe or similar damage for exemple. I killed more than one character when running Dragon of Icespire Peak.
Orc and Ocre Jelly in Dwarven Excavation and Manticore in Umbrage Hill.
Oh, absolutely. For me, my PC was 2nd level, and we had a random encounter with Cryovain where we all lost out on initiative, and the DM rolled absurdly well on damage. Not your standard encounter, no, but them's the breaks sometimes.
Oh, so you were deliberately misreading my post then. A dragon - even a young dragon with a CR of 6 is definitely not level appropriate for a group of level 2 characters. A 30ft cone doing 10d8 with a fairly substantial con saving throw dc is what would be called overcooking an encounter. Man you literally proved my point for me.
No, you're deliberately misreading mine. As I said, it's not a standard encounter to begin with, and with context the dragon isn't meant to be defeated in a random encounter like the one I did, it flees after receiving at least 10 damage. Poorly balanced, I agree, but in theory still workable, but an unfortunate series of rolls led to it being otherwise.
So, you can go ahead and take your presumptions elsewhere.
That’s not even remotely what I said and you know it. Your comment was that you were effortlessly able to take out player characters in your game. I have no issue with taking down characters but it shouldn’t be effortless. It should be a challenge unless either the monsters are too powerful or the players use stupid tactics. My response is very clear and simple to understand, so clearly you are being awkward just because.
With respect, you don't have the slightest idea how I run my games, nor do you know how my players act in them. Do not presume that you do.
Oh, so you were deliberately misreading my post then. A dragon - even a young dragon with a CR of 6 is definitely not level appropriate for a group of level 2 characters. A 30ft cone doing 10d8 with a fairly substantial con saving throw dc is what would be called overcooking an encounter. Man you literally proved my point for me.
No, you're deliberately misreading mine. As I said, it's not a standard encounter to begin with, and with context the dragon isn't meant to be defeated in a random encounter like the one I did, it flees after receiving at least 10 damage. Poorly balanced, I agree, but in theory still workable, but an unfortunate series of rolls led to it being otherwise.
So, you can go ahead and take your presumptions elsewhere.
What presumptions? I made none. I very clearly said that accidentally killing low level characters is possible but that it’s much harder to kill or tpk a group of higher level characters unless the encounter is unbalanced, the players do something stupid, or they get multiple unfortunate dice rolls. That isn’t a presumption of any kind. Putting a CR6 enemy against a group of level 2 players is just asking for a tpk and is a perfect example of an unbalanced encounter. Moreover you yourself have now admitted that it was a combination of an unbalanced encounter combined with a string of unlucky dice rolls - so literally you are agreeing with what I said.
Not sure why you feel the need to be rude or try to insult me. You appear to be seeing insults were there were none and are getting extremely defensive for no reason.
What presumptions? I made none. I very clearly said that accidentally killing low level characters is possible but that it’s much harder to kill or tpk a group of higher level characters unless the encounter is unbalanced, the players do something stupid, or they get multiple unfortunate dice rolls. That isn’t a presumption of any kind. Putting a CR6 enemy against a group of level 2 players is just asking for a tpk and is a perfect example of an unbalanced encounter. Not sure why you feel the need to be rude or try to insult me. You appear to be seeing insults were there were none and are getting extremely defensive for no reason.
You said, "It's virtually impossible to accidentally kill a PC these days," and I disagreed with that notion. You then said that either I overcooked the encounter, or that my players were stupid. Whether you realize it or not, you are being insulting. Now, I apologize for my part in being combative, but that said I highly recommend you give your posts a once-over to make sure you don't do the same as well.
And as I said, both the first time and afterwards, that was not a standard encounter; you acted like I said it was. Perhaps that was a miscommunication on both our parts, so let's take this opportunity to clear the air in that regard.
A level 6 creature is a suitable threat for an average (read unoptimised) group of 4 level 6 characters. It’s completely overpowered for a group of level 2 characters.
A CR 6 creature is a medium encounter for an average group of 4 level 6 characters. Boss fights are almost always set to Deadly, not Medium.
A level 6 creature is a suitable threat for an average (read unoptimised) group of 4 level 6 characters. It’s completely overpowered for a group of level 2 characters.
A CR 6 creature is a medium encounter for an average group of 4 level 6 characters. Boss fights are almost always set to Deadly, not Medium.
Yep, and what would that encounter be for a group of level 2 characters as in this case?
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I have downed PC's without really trying, and had one of my PC's killed in a Dragon of Icespire Peak game, so my experience says otherwise.
Then you either completely over cooked the difficulty of a fight, the players used incredibly bad tactics or made their characters badly. There is no real reason for a level appropriate encounter to become a tpk unless they do something stupid or get incredibly bad dice rolls over multiple rounds. If id does come purely down to dice rolls - well that’s just the will of the gods. Make some new characters and start over.
Yeah it's a relatively known fact that PC are easily killeable at level 1-2, especially with a critical hit from an Orc's greataxe or similar damage for exemple. I killed more than one character when running Dragon of Icespire Peak.
Orc and Ocre Jelly in Dwarven Excavation and Manticore in Umbrage Hill.
Soooooo...encounters are poorly built if they down a player, even though moments ago you were complaining that PC's can't be killed?
Oh, absolutely. For me, my PC was 2nd level, and we had a random encounter with Cryovain where we all lost out on initiative, and the DM rolled absurdly well on damage. Not your standard encounter, no, but them's the breaks sometimes.
Wether a designer's module or DM homebrew, a monster capable of dealing 1d12+3 or 2d6+2 can drop a L1-2 PC low on HP and can even outright kill one at Full HP with a lucky roll crit.
Are Grave Clerics the only ones that have an ability that is triggered by a Critical? What aspects of this change are there that we are not talking or thinking about?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Adamantine Armor, and anything that rerolls an attack after the dice have been rolled. That's all I can think of.
The Piercer, Slasher and Crusher feats would still function but their abilities would have more of an impact in comparison to just doubling weapon damage.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Oh yea, I forgot about the d6 roll. Upon reflection I think you make a good point, if indeed we suddenly see lots of monsters with new 'recharging' abilities.
That’s not even remotely what I said and you know it. Your comment was that you were effortlessly able to take out player characters in your game. I have no issue with taking down characters but it shouldn’t be effortless. It should be a challenge unless either the monsters are too powerful or the players use stupid tactics. My response is very clear and simple to understand, so clearly you are being awkward just because.
Oh, so you were deliberately misreading my post then. A dragon - even a young dragon with a CR of 6 is definitely not level appropriate for a group of level 2 characters. A 30ft cone doing 10d8 with a fairly substantial con saving throw dc is what would be called overcooking an encounter. Man you literally proved my point for me.
But I specifically said that at level 1 it is easy to kill off a character or even tpk a party by accident. That’s a well known thing and a reason why many games start at level 3 or higher. In fact I once watched a streamed paid game where a ‘professional’ dm tpk’d a party of brand new first time players on the very first goblin ambush in the opening section of LMoP. His reaction was hilarious. He put in a few extra goblins with bows because he thought they could handle it (the party was lvl1 and comprised a barbarian, ranger, rogue, and wizard).
There is no question at lower levels it is easily done, but removing crits won’t change the fact that a goblin with a +4 to hit short bow attack does 1d6+2 damage and could potentially take out a wizard with an AC of 14/15 and 8hp (assuming 14 con) and that’s with a regular albeit lucky hit and damage roll. Stopping the goblin getting extra damage makes no difference to that outcome. So the changes do absolutely nothing other on the rare occasion a crit gets rolled.
Deadly encounters have no upper limit, except arguably your entire daily budget in a single fight (admittedly, I have seen modules where single encounters not only exceeded the deadly budget, they exceeded the daily budget), and it's worse at level 1 -- a brown bear can perfectly easily hit for 9 and 11 in a single turn and is just a medium encounter.
FWIW, Cryovain vs a party of 4 at level 2 is less than the daily budget.
A level 6 creature is a suitable threat for an average (read unoptimised) group of 4 level 6 characters. It’s completely overpowered for a group of level 2 characters.
A single brown bear is a solid threat to a group of 4 level 1 players if they charge into melee. That said it has an AC of 11 and 34hp, so should be brought down in 2 rounds. If the players think about what they are doing though they should realise that and used ranged attacks and spells. A grizzly will take out a person in the real world without breaking a sweat, so it should be commonsense.
With respect, you don't have the slightest idea how I run my games, nor do you know how my players act in them. Do not presume that you do.
No, you're deliberately misreading mine. As I said, it's not a standard encounter to begin with, and with context the dragon isn't meant to be defeated in a random encounter like the one I did, it flees after receiving at least 10 damage. Poorly balanced, I agree, but in theory still workable, but an unfortunate series of rolls led to it being otherwise.
So, you can go ahead and take your presumptions elsewhere.
What presumptions? I made none. I very clearly said that accidentally killing low level characters is possible but that it’s much harder to kill or tpk a group of higher level characters unless the encounter is unbalanced, the players do something stupid, or they get multiple unfortunate dice rolls. That isn’t a presumption of any kind. Putting a CR6 enemy against a group of level 2 players is just asking for a tpk and is a perfect example of an unbalanced encounter. Moreover you yourself have now admitted that it was a combination of an unbalanced encounter combined with a string of unlucky dice rolls - so literally you are agreeing with what I said.
Not sure why you feel the need to be rude or try to insult me. You appear to be seeing insults were there were none and are getting extremely defensive for no reason.
You said, "It's virtually impossible to accidentally kill a PC these days," and I disagreed with that notion. You then said that either I overcooked the encounter, or that my players were stupid. Whether you realize it or not, you are being insulting. Now, I apologize for my part in being combative, but that said I highly recommend you give your posts a once-over to make sure you don't do the same as well.
And as I said, both the first time and afterwards, that was not a standard encounter; you acted like I said it was. Perhaps that was a miscommunication on both our parts, so let's take this opportunity to clear the air in that regard.
A CR 6 creature is a medium encounter for an average group of 4 level 6 characters. Boss fights are almost always set to Deadly, not Medium.
Yep, and what would that encounter be for a group of level 2 characters as in this case?