What i get from Druids is that wild shape no longer is a second pool of HP but now i got more fun since i dont need to be specific to a type of animal as the stats are standarized. I like this
I love the new wild shape changes. Getting darkvision and adding any flavor of the beast is awesome. One can be a gorilla and use tools. It’s more utility and scales better. Plus the str and dex based on wis is cool.
Many players would always choose the same shape in 5e. Warg or bear etc to get specific benefits and abilities. Now a Druid can be any beast and use the cool new abilities inherent no matter what one they chose whether bear or panther or hippo etc.
The new standardized wild shape is ... completely useless. It's not useful for non-combat problemsolving, and in combat it amounts to "congratulations, you can spend an action to reduce your armor class, do less damage, and be unable to cast spells".
The new wildshape is utter trash. Shillelagh is better for combat and the Wild Companion (find familiar) is better for non-combat problem solving. The only possible use I can think of for the new wildshape is to be a shuttle bus to carry your allies.
Darkvision is not important, and the forms get zero interesting abilities, their AC sucks, you get no extra HP pool (arguably will can have less HP than your original form since you no longer benefit from feats like Tough), their damage is no better (and often worse than) casting a cantrip, you lose all your feats (so no Warcaster to protect your concentration), and class/racial abilities, can't cast spells, can't make ranged attacks, you are just a worse version of you...
The new wildshape is utter trash. Shillelagh is better for combat and the Wild Companion (find familiar) is better for non-combat problem solving. The only possible use I can think of for the new wildshape is to be a shuttle bus to carry your allies.
Beast of the land does have keen senses, and a druid is likely to have better perception than a familiar (except... it looks like you lose your skills in wild shape). That's pretty narrow, though.
A fifth level druid, with multiattack, does have more damage output than cantrips, but it's still not all that much by melee character standards, and the transformed druid just doesn't have the defenses to engage in melee combat.
It's all fixable, and I can absolutely understand the motivation, but it's just not viable with current stats.
So they mention some players preferring to be a nature based spellcaster (I am one of those) and trying to take that into account while making the base class, but the current implementation feels very wild shape focused. I kind of wish they took a similar route as Cleric with the Holy Orders, but this time with something like Order of Fauna/Flora/Elements.
Move some of the base class's Wildshape upgrades to Order of Fauna path (such as Might of the Land's multiattack), with the Flora focusing on summoning/using plants with their magic and the Elements focusing on increasing their elemental capabilities (such as weather-like effects). There doesn't need to be the same amount of class features for the other two since they are gained on spell level increases and I'd assume some of these would enhance the spellcasting.
I'm mostly just throwing things out there, but it'd be nice for something like this to exist so in the future when some Druid subclass has something that uses Channel Nature in place of wildshape and not feel like some levels are more useless than others (aside from new spell levels).
1 clarification may be needed on the wild shape AC, its 10+wisdom mod but the creatures Dex is also your wisdom, so is it 10+wisdom mod stop(basically because your dex is your wisdom) or effectively 10+2xwisdom mod as 10 its 10(wisdom mod for natural armor+wisdom mod for dex to AC). 16/18/20 for levels 1/4/8 isn't terrible AC 13/14/15 is. Wild shape would still suck as you are giving up way too much for something that stops your spell casting as a full caster. But the Ac might not suck as much as I originally thought.
1 clarification may be needed on the wild shape AC, its 10+wisdom mod but the creatures Dex is also your wisdom, so is it 10+wisdom mod stop(basically because your dex is your wisdom) or effectively 10+2xwisdom mod.
It's the first. If Dex was intended to add to AC it would say so.
1 clarification may be needed on the wild shape AC, its 10+wisdom mod but the creatures Dex is also your wisdom, so is it 10+wisdom mod stop(basically because your dex is your wisdom) or effectively 10+2xwisdom mod.
It's the first. If Dex was intended to add to AC it would say so.
Or does Dex always adds to Ac unless it specifically says it doesn't.
Edit to add, I'm reading it like the first, just I can see the argument for the 2nd so I think it needs clarification, as this is a play test.
Or does Dex always adds to Ac unless it specifically says it doesn't.
Every example of alternate AC calculations is specific about whether Dex adds or not. e.g. for the monk
Unarmored Defense
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
This isn't unarmed defense though, its the creatures normal AC. They could just as easily say 10+dex, as the stat block is Dex=wisdom. By saying 10+wisdom mod it clouds the issue imo. What the rule is almost does not matter, what matters is that its clear to everyone when they read it, not if they read 23 other areas of the book they can come to the right conclusion. This is a play test and we should point out areas like this so its more clear when they publish.
For me the joy of playing a druid was the wildshape utility. Here I need blindsight, Here I need a grapple, here I need stealth, Here I need some form of invisible creature tracking, here I need movement, Here I need to ignore difficult terrain.
Being a creature means having mechanics of a creature. The druid needed balance but not at the expense of interesting play. Having access to all features might be too much but having almost none is not good.
Also limited exposure to creature features made a good branch point for players thinking about becoming a dm. Kind of a simple test to see how well running multiple creature types (like npc surrogates). At the same time it gave a class to play for those too familiar with stat(long timers or dms) blocks to play without disruption of the rest of the table.
The new wildshape is utter trash. Shillelagh is better for combat and the Wild Companion (find familiar) is better for non-combat problem solving. The only possible use I can think of for the new wildshape is to be a shuttle bus to carry your allies.
Darkvision is not important, and the forms get zero interesting abilities, their AC sucks, you get no extra HP pool (arguably will can have less HP than your original form since you no longer benefit from feats like Tough), their damage is no better (and often worse than) casting a cantrip, you lose all your feats (so no Warcaster to protect your concentration), and class/racial abilities, can't cast spells, can't make ranged attacks, you are just a worse version of you...
Shillelagh is not better for combat, the only advantage Shillelagh has is that it is considered magical. At level 5 the wild shapes get extra attack, so it's 2 attacks vs 1 attack. It seems unclear if the elemental damage for moon druids is considered magical or not, that could have used some clarification, I would assume so but it isn't clear, either way druids get more choices of damage type with wild shape, (bludgeoning, Slashing or piercing).
I would also like more clarification for Moon druids bonus action attack, it says unarmed attack but doesn't make it clear if this is something you can do while wild shaped or not, I presume yes but again, not clear.
Yes I agree. This class design shows a lack of imagination. To go and say that wildshape is iconic and then base the entirety of the standard class around this one ability is garbage. The one thing I do like is the Standardized forms. For two reasons. First it makes the Circle of the moon druid not overpowered, and the other subclasses on a more level field. Secondly it takes the ability from Free hit points back to just some cool flavor the druid is known for. Other than that as a previous poster mentioned wildshape is just an ability which hinders you.
I like the druid as a caster from the natural world. not as the brand new SHIFTER class they made.
Flying form at level 9! Already been casting fly and water breathing for ages now...
If you want the druid to continue to be the one class no one plays please continue making the class around these guidelines. Wild shape should be regulated to maybe three max level power increases ( not counting the circle of moon druid) with the rest to more well rounded and standard "core" druid themes; such as a oneness with the natural/ elemental realms, dealing with fey/beasts.
Shillelagh is not better for combat, the only advantage Shillelagh has is that it is considered magical. At level 5 the wild shapes get extra attack, so it's 2 attacks vs 1 attack. It seems unclear if the elemental damage for moon druids is considered magical or not, that could have used some clarification, I would assume so but it isn't clear, either way druids get more choices of damage type with wild shape, (bludgeoning, Slashing or piercing).
At level 1-4, shillelagh is exactly the same damage (being able to switch between damage types is almost totally irrelevant) -- it's just that you'll have better AC (armor and shield and dex modifier) and the ability to cast spells. At level 5+, it's true that your damage output is higher, but it's still low for a front line combat character, and you just don't have the defenses to survive as a front line combatant.
Shillelagh is not better for combat, the only advantage Shillelagh has is that it is considered magical. At level 5 the wild shapes get extra attack, so it's 2 attacks vs 1 attack. It seems unclear if the elemental damage for moon druids is considered magical or not, that could have used some clarification, I would assume so but it isn't clear, either way druids get more choices of damage type with wild shape, (bludgeoning, Slashing or piercing).
At level 1-4, shillelagh is exactly the same damage (being able to switch between damage types is almost totally irrelevant) -- it's just that you'll have better AC (armor and shield and dex modifier) and the ability to cast spells. At level 5+, it's true that your damage output is higher, but it's still low for a front line combat character, and you just don't have the defenses to survive as a front line combatant.
not doubting that, the claim however was that Shillelagh is better for combat, which it isn't really true. However moon druid certainly needs more resilience. I would note that flying form gives flyby, so that negates most of the danger of being a front liner from level 9+. fly in, attack twice, fly out.
not doubting that, the claim however was that Shillelagh is better for combat, which it isn't really true. However moon druid certainly needs more resilience. I would note that flying form gives flyby, so that negates most of the danger of being a front liner from level 9+. fly in, attack twice, fly out.
I would be tempted by 'resistant to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered'. That would probably be sufficient to make wild shape 'viable but unspectacular'.
I keep seeing the comment "no one plays druid" this is vastly different than my experience.
For reference I assisted in running an in store dnd group (2 AL tables 1 free table )as well as play on line with players across the world. Druids seem to be present at 85-95% of the games.
There seems to be less of a presence in Liveplay but not to the point where they are Rarer than other specialized classes.
Talking Circle of the Moon
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
What i get from Druids is that wild shape no longer is a second pool of HP but now i got more fun since i dont need to be specific to a type of animal as the stats are standarized. I like this
I love the new wild shape changes. Getting darkvision and adding any flavor of the beast is awesome. One can be a gorilla and use tools. It’s more utility and scales better. Plus the str and dex based on wis is cool.
Many players would always choose the same shape in 5e. Warg or bear etc to get specific benefits and abilities. Now a Druid can be any beast and use the cool new abilities inherent no matter what one they chose whether bear or panther or hippo etc.
The new standardized wild shape is ... completely useless. It's not useful for non-combat problemsolving, and in combat it amounts to "congratulations, you can spend an action to reduce your armor class, do less damage, and be unable to cast spells".
The new wildshape is utter trash. Shillelagh is better for combat and the Wild Companion (find familiar) is better for non-combat problem solving. The only possible use I can think of for the new wildshape is to be a shuttle bus to carry your allies.
Darkvision is not important, and the forms get zero interesting abilities, their AC sucks, you get no extra HP pool (arguably will can have less HP than your original form since you no longer benefit from feats like Tough), their damage is no better (and often worse than) casting a cantrip, you lose all your feats (so no Warcaster to protect your concentration), and class/racial abilities, can't cast spells, can't make ranged attacks, you are just a worse version of you...
Beast of the land does have keen senses, and a druid is likely to have better perception than a familiar (except... it looks like you lose your skills in wild shape). That's pretty narrow, though.
A fifth level druid, with multiattack, does have more damage output than cantrips, but it's still not all that much by melee character standards, and the transformed druid just doesn't have the defenses to engage in melee combat.
It's all fixable, and I can absolutely understand the motivation, but it's just not viable with current stats.
So they mention some players preferring to be a nature based spellcaster (I am one of those) and trying to take that into account while making the base class, but the current implementation feels very wild shape focused. I kind of wish they took a similar route as Cleric with the Holy Orders, but this time with something like Order of Fauna/Flora/Elements.
Move some of the base class's Wildshape upgrades to Order of Fauna path (such as Might of the Land's multiattack), with the Flora focusing on summoning/using plants with their magic and the Elements focusing on increasing their elemental capabilities (such as weather-like effects). There doesn't need to be the same amount of class features for the other two since they are gained on spell level increases and I'd assume some of these would enhance the spellcasting.
I'm mostly just throwing things out there, but it'd be nice for something like this to exist so in the future when some Druid subclass has something that uses Channel Nature in place of wildshape and not feel like some levels are more useless than others (aside from new spell levels).
1 clarification may be needed on the wild shape AC, its 10+wisdom mod but the creatures Dex is also your wisdom, so is it 10+wisdom mod stop(basically because your dex is your wisdom) or effectively 10+2xwisdom mod as 10 its 10(wisdom mod for natural armor+wisdom mod for dex to AC). 16/18/20 for levels 1/4/8 isn't terrible AC 13/14/15 is. Wild shape would still suck as you are giving up way too much for something that stops your spell casting as a full caster. But the Ac might not suck as much as I originally thought.
It's the first. If Dex was intended to add to AC it would say so.
Or does Dex always adds to Ac unless it specifically says it doesn't.
Edit to add, I'm reading it like the first, just I can see the argument for the 2nd so I think it needs clarification, as this is a play test.
Every example of alternate AC calculations is specific about whether Dex adds or not. e.g. for the monk
This isn't unarmed defense though, its the creatures normal AC. They could just as easily say 10+dex, as the stat block is Dex=wisdom. By saying 10+wisdom mod it clouds the issue imo. What the rule is almost does not matter, what matters is that its clear to everyone when they read it, not if they read 23 other areas of the book they can come to the right conclusion. This is a play test and we should point out areas like this so its more clear when they publish.
For me the joy of playing a druid was the wildshape utility. Here I need blindsight, Here I need a grapple, here I need stealth, Here I need some form of invisible creature tracking, here I need movement, Here I need to ignore difficult terrain.
Being a creature means having mechanics of a creature. The druid needed balance but not at the expense of interesting play. Having access to all features might be too much but having almost none is not good.
Also limited exposure to creature features made a good branch point for players thinking about becoming a dm. Kind of a simple test to see how well running multiple creature types (like npc surrogates). At the same time it gave a class to play for those too familiar with stat(long timers or dms) blocks to play without disruption of the rest of the table.
Shillelagh is not better for combat, the only advantage Shillelagh has is that it is considered magical. At level 5 the wild shapes get extra attack, so it's 2 attacks vs 1 attack. It seems unclear if the elemental damage for moon druids is considered magical or not, that could have used some clarification, I would assume so but it isn't clear, either way druids get more choices of damage type with wild shape, (bludgeoning, Slashing or piercing).
I would also like more clarification for Moon druids bonus action attack, it says unarmed attack but doesn't make it clear if this is something you can do while wild shaped or not, I presume yes but again, not clear.
Yes I agree. This class design shows a lack of imagination. To go and say that wildshape is iconic and then base the entirety of the standard class around this one ability is garbage. The one thing I do like is the Standardized forms. For two reasons. First it makes the Circle of the moon druid not overpowered, and the other subclasses on a more level field. Secondly it takes the ability from Free hit points back to just some cool flavor the druid is known for. Other than that as a previous poster mentioned wildshape is just an ability which hinders you.
I like the druid as a caster from the natural world. not as the brand new SHIFTER class they made.
Flying form at level 9! Already been casting fly and water breathing for ages now...
If you want the druid to continue to be the one class no one plays please continue making the class around these guidelines. Wild shape should be regulated to maybe three max level power increases ( not counting the circle of moon druid) with the rest to more well rounded and standard "core" druid themes; such as a oneness with the natural/ elemental realms, dealing with fey/beasts.
At level 1-4, shillelagh is exactly the same damage (being able to switch between damage types is almost totally irrelevant) -- it's just that you'll have better AC (armor and shield and dex modifier) and the ability to cast spells. At level 5+, it's true that your damage output is higher, but it's still low for a front line combat character, and you just don't have the defenses to survive as a front line combatant.
primal savagery is pretty powerful cantrip
not doubting that, the claim however was that Shillelagh is better for combat, which it isn't really true. However moon druid certainly needs more resilience. I would note that flying form gives flyby, so that negates most of the danger of being a front liner from level 9+. fly in, attack twice, fly out.
I would be tempted by 'resistant to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks that aren't Silvered'. That would probably be sufficient to make wild shape 'viable but unspectacular'.
I keep seeing the comment "no one plays druid" this is vastly different than my experience.
For reference I assisted in running an in store dnd group (2 AL tables 1 free table )as well as play on line with players across the world. Druids seem to be present at 85-95% of the games.
There seems to be less of a presence in Liveplay but not to the point where they are Rarer than other specialized classes.
Can any one support or debunk such claims?