Every druid I have DMed of a level able to prepare Conjure Animals, prepares Conjure Animals, although a some choose to not use it in combat b/c they hate managing the animals in combat, but they still prepare it in order to use it for utility -> 8 giant badgers to dig a tunnel for you, 8 giant owls to fly the party over obstacles, horses to help the party escape a battle they are losing, or a couple of bears to break down a door.
FYI, the player/druid does not get to pick the creatures that are summoned. If your DM is letting you pick the specific creatures, then yes, Conjure Animals would be a must have spell.
If instead, the DM picks the creatures (either by random or by whim) as Sage Advice indicates, then Conjure Animals has a lot less utility because you never know if what you summon will actually have the ability to fly over obstacles or dig a tunnel.
Asking for CR 1/4 and hoping for Giant Badger or Giant Owls, yet getting Draft Horses is a distinct possibility.
Aye, but the DMs that do that aren't usually running a full campaign. Those are drop-in / drop-out game DMs who have a hate on for druids probably after some munchkin player who can't get invited to a full campaign did the Shepherd Druid with 16 velociraptor thing. It's the interesting thing about D&D, there are so many formats people play in that have completely different problems.
However, even with a DM that randomizes creatures Conjure Animals is still useful for simply putting bodies on the field (which is why those DMs are shooting themselves in the foot, since when creatures are chosen randomly, your best bet is always 8xCR 1/4). The beasts can always grapple or take the Help action, which means if you aren't likely to get good higher CR animals just action economy is the best strategy. And if you take away utility, well now you're just ensuring the druid saves their slots for combat.
I understand that they maybe wanted to tone done the whole 'hit point' buffer thing and prevent players from having to look up beast stats all the time (though this is quite easy now if you have DnD beyond!). But I feel the proposed changes are losing too much of what makes wildshape actually fun and usable.
For a non-moon druid, being able to wildshape was mostly for scouting and reconnaissance and, if high enough level, for the utility 'riders' that certain forms had - e.g. a spider for ability to spider-climb.
For a moon druid, it was mostly for combat of course but the utilities of certain forms became more useful for combat (since you could access certain forms at earlier levels).
All of this has pretty much gone as far as I'm concerned making wildshape not fit for purpose.
For a non-moon druid, wildshape is now almost completely pointless, with no utility abilities and the ability to be tiny not kicking in until ELEVENTH level. Why would a druid even use it?
For a moon druid, wildshape is supposed to be for combat, but without the hit point buffer you are objectively worse in every way to any other class in combat. You now lose all your other class features, feats etc (why???) and you don't even get any of the useful utility abilities to help you. Being able to cast abjuration spells and do unarmed strikes (?? this just feels odd) really does not make up for any of this.
Suggestions:
Assuming WOTC don't want to walk back on the whole wildshape stat block thing then...
* I feel there needs to be something to make wildshape useful to all druids. Honestly can't see why the ability to be Tiny can't be accessible much earlier, maybe still with the 10 minute clause (which moon druids get to ignore). Perhaps the stat blocks themselves can even be toned down in general, but moon druids get additional bonuses.
* For moon druids there needs to be something to allow them to hold their own in combat. Their AC and damage is already going to be far lower than their melee-oriented allies, which I'm ok with. This is the case in the current rules, but currently its their ability to soak hits that makes them stand out from the crowd - even if they just stand there and distract enemies while the party's barbarians eliminate everyone else! Perhaps just a burst of temporary hit points when they first wildshape?
* There needs to be more utility options. You get Climb and MultiAttack eventually but I would much prefer a list of options to choose from. These options could be gated by level, with moon druids getting access to higher-level options earlier. E.g. When you wild-shape choose one of the following options: Climb, MultiAttack, Poison, Shoot Web, Grab Enemy etc.
I posted in the main thread for this UA, but it'd be good to get my thoughts down all in one place. Firstly, here's what I think of the changes:
I'm generally positive about the change to templates rather than having to reference a load of monster stat-blocks.
While the loss of hit-points is a problem, for me the bigger issue is the loss of utility from many of the monsters we could previously choose.
I don't like Tiny being delayed so much.
My current preferred updates (subject to change at random on a whim) are:
Move Wildshape back to 2nd-level; it's silly IMO to get it right away and to separate the Channel Nature powers this much.
Change Wild Companion to a free casting either Find Familiar, and from 3rd-level summon beast. Spell level isdetermined by Druid level (up to a limit of 5th- or 6th-level?).
Change Wildshape to same as Wild Companion, except druid changes into "summoned" creature gaining hit-points, reverting at 0 hp., no concentration required, retains INT/WIS/CHA.
Clarify size of familiar (large rodent sized?), i.e- no more exploitatively minuscule insects.
Add a choice of three features to summon beast including blindsight, keen senses, multiattack, Medium size, pack tactics etc. Large size feature if cast at 3rd-level or higher, with a Charge attack feature option for Large land beasts only. This brings back a lot more variety and utility.
Alternating form would function as-is (suppress/resume active Wildshape as a bonus action).
Circle of the Moon uncaps Wildshape pp to 9th-level, Elemental Strike loses higher level scaling (multiattack takes care of this).
Basically the idea is that instead of adding a whole new set of templates with the same problems that others have, we build upon the new find familiar and summon beast spells to do the heavy lifting, as these spells are presumably the template for summoning spells going forward anyway. Summon beast has the same basic problem as wildshape (lack of utility compared to spells that can conjure specific monsters) so fixing that for that spell solves the same problem for wildshape, and means less redundancy/simpler Druid class.
Scaling is as simple as casting the spells at higher levels. This same template could be used to also replace Healing Blossom, e.g- it could arrive at 5th-level as a Channel Nature to cast aura of vitality. I would probably limit the maximum level of Channel Nature spells to 5th- or 6th-, with features at higher levels providing different added benefits. This limits Wildshape to a buffer of ~50 hit-points for non-Moon Druids, or 85 for Moon Druids, compared to the previous 126 for a mammoth or whatever. Due to the way the levelling works, the multiattack for summon beast kicks in later (need to cast at 4th-level to get a 2nd attack, so 7th-level in Druid) but I think getting the hit-point buffer back makes it worth it.
Personally I wouldn't bother limiting the sea and air forms; if it's a problem for Wildshape then it's a problem for Wild Companion/find familiar generally, if a Druid wants to burn a Channel Nature to bypass an obstacle a bit more easily I say let them. There seems to be a misconception that Wildshape is overpowered for recon but you're only as stealthy or as useful as the new form, whereas a Rogue can actually stay hidden, pick locks etc., and it's usually preferable to have more than one player who can infiltrate (they can go together, fill in if one is missing etc.) anyway.
Since these changes essentially offload scaling to spells, the class becomes simpler and we get more scope to do something more interesting with the class feature. Quillcannon has a thread of ideas for an Eldritch Invocation style feature for Druid which I really like; I think it'd need to be a smaller list for OneD&D, but I could see it as a way to further customise Channel Nature and/or Wildshape as the Druid levels up. Even if it were just 6-8 options and you get to pick two or three by the end it could allow for Druid builds to be more varied.
Not related to Wildshape, but I'd like to see a Channel Nature (possibly added by an "invocation"?) focused on primal magic; the Druid is after all the main Primal caster but we've no way to boost those spells, being able to use Channel Nature to temporarily boost them would be good for those that want to play an elemental/nature/primal mage build that doesn't use wildshape much.
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I posted in the main thread for this UA, but it'd be good to get my thoughts down all in one place. Firstly, here's what I think of the changes:
I'm generally positive about the change to templates rather than having to reference a load of monster stat-blocks.
While the loss of hit-points is a problem, for me the bigger issue is the loss of utility from many of the monsters we could previously choose.
I don't like Tiny being delayed so much.
My current preferred updates (subject to change at random on a whim) are:
Move Wildshape back to 2nd-level; it's silly IMO to get it right away and to separate the Channel Nature powers this much.
Change Wild Companion to a free casting either Find Familiar, and from 3rd-level summon beast. Spell level isdetermined by Druid level (up to a limit of 5th- or 6th-level?).
Change Wildshape to same as Wild Companion, except druid changes into "summoned" creature gaining hit-points, reverting at 0 hp., no concentration required, retains INT/WIS/CHA.
Clarify size of familiar (large rodent sized?), i.e- no more exploitatively minuscule insects.
Add a choice of three features to summon beast including blindsight, keen senses, multiattack, Medium size, pack tactics etc. Large size feature if cast at 3rd-level or higher, with a Charge attack feature option for Large land beasts only. This brings back a lot more variety and utility.
Alternating form would function as-is (suppress/resume active Wildshape as a bonus action).
Circle of the Moon uncaps Wildshape pp to 9th-level, Elemental Strike loses higher level scaling (multiattack takes care of this).
Basically the idea is that instead of adding a whole new set of templates with the same problems that others have, we build upon the new find familiar and summon beast spells to do the heavy lifting, as these spells are presumably the template for summoning spells going forward anyway. Summon beast has the same basic problem as wildshape (lack of utility compared to spells that can conjure specific monsters) so fixing that for that spell solves the same problem for wildshape, and means less redundancy/simpler Druid class.
Scaling is as simple as casting the spells at higher levels. This same template could be used to also replace Healing Blossom, e.g- it could arrive at 5th-level as a Channel Nature to cast aura of vitality. I would probably limit the maximum level of Channel Nature spells to 5th- or 6th-, with features at higher levels providing different added benefits. This limits Wildshape to a buffer of ~50 hit-points for non-Moon Druids, or 85 for Moon Druids, compared to the previous 126 for a mammoth or whatever. Due to the way the levelling works, the multiattack for summon beast kicks in later (need to cast at 4th-level to get a 2nd attack, so 7th-level in Druid) but I think getting the hit-point buffer back makes it worth it.
Personally I wouldn't bother limiting the sea and air forms; if it's a problem for Wildshape then it's a problem for Wild Companion/find familiar generally, if a Druid wants to burn a Channel Nature to bypass an obstacle a bit more easily I say let them. There seems to be a misconception that Wildshape is overpowered for recon but you're only as stealthy or as useful as the new form, whereas a Rogue can actually stay hidden, pick locks etc., and it's usually preferable to have more than one player who can infiltrate (they can go together, fill in if one is missing etc.) anyway.
Since these changes essentially offload scaling to spells, the class becomes simpler and we get more scope to do something more interesting with the class feature. Quillcannon has a thread of ideas for an Eldritch Invocation style feature for Druid which I really like; I think it'd need to be a smaller list for OneD&D, but I could see it as a way to further customise Channel Nature and/or Wildshape as the Druid levels up. Even if it were just 6-8 options and you get to pick two or three by the end it could allow for Druid builds to be more varied.
Not related to Wildshape, but I'd like to see a Channel Nature (possibly added by an "invocation"?) focused on primal magic; the Druid is after all the main Primal caster but we've no way to boost those spells, being able to use Channel Nature to temporarily boost them would be good for those that want to play an elemental/nature/primal mage build that doesn't use wildshape much.
I think your idea is interesting and simplifies it somewhat. But I could also see WS using a similar template instead of the three in the UA with maybe some added features, and not the spell.
One thing I don’t particularly like is hybrid forms. I’m sure it would be cool to be an owlbear but at the same time can lead to odd combinations. With the template (UA or spell) you can WS into a small elephant and still climb a vertical cliff face because you get a climb speed. I think it should be dependent on the form you take and if they have the anatomy to do so. Which hybrids really screws up because you could just say you are a small elephant with gorilla hands
I haven’t read through this whole string, but here’s my two cents:
I love druids. They are a super fun and versatile class because they are able to do so much.
If you need hit points then turn into a beefy creature. If you need to go somewhere tight get tiny. The different abilities of creatures are what make wild shape so appealing. If you have the ability to choose what sort of features you’ll be gaining then you’re more useful.
I do admit that the current class over-emphasizes wild shape. However, utilizing the life of druids I think that WotC could very easily create some really cool abilities for druids that center around trees and plants, not just animals. They need more of a connection to nature itself. And when I say this I do not mean that they should get some 4th or 3rd level spell as a class feature so they can cast it an extra time without a slot. That is lazy and unfair to players looking for a unique class. I only say this because WotC did this to Paladin with Find Steed at 5th level. That is a waste of a feature, and I don’t want to see it happen to druids.
What we need, what we really need, is for druids to be made into a true masters of nature. If they get cool nature abilities and get to keep their wild shapes, though perhaps with less HP, then I see a bright future for druids.
Of course, if they eff it all up we can just keep playing 5e and homebrew our own druids.
Before proposing changes, perhaps it would be better to determine the objectives for druid design in the new edition.
Druids remain full spell casters with the versatility and power of spell casting. Both 5E and the recent UA are similar in this area. I have not seen much complaining about Druid spellcasting modifications from 5E to UA.
Wild Shape rules should be simple for new players, DMs, and programmers to keep track of. This includes skills, attacks, defenses, saves, etc. The UA attempted to do this with stat blocks. 5E was more complex.
All druids (moon and other subclasses) should be able to use Wild Shape for utility and RP purposes. This includes movement (fly, swim, climb, spiderclimb, burrow, etc), senses (darkvision, blindsight, tremorsense, etc), appearance (overlooked bug/cat/horse), and features (web, constrict, pack tactics, etc). 5E handled this well. The UA design appears to be oblivious to this objective.
Non-moon druids should have alternatives to Wild Shape. This goes for both playing decisions and class features. 5E handled this with certain subclasses. The UA attempted to handle it with Channel Nature.
Moon Druids should feel fun in melee. 5E handled this, but it felt over/underpowered depending on level.
Non-moon druids should generally want to avoid melee Wild Shape. In other words, non-moon Wild Shapes should not be powerful enough to always be the optimum choice in all combats. This is unlikely to happen, but I wanted to mention it for completeness.
This leads to my first question for specifications. What are the utility (non-combat) Wild Shape abilities that should be considered in the new edition? Here are the ones I've noticed mentioned, but I could be missing some. I'll edit in any additions.
Flight (bats, owls, etc)
Swimming (fish, crocodiles, etc)
Burrowing + tremorsense (badger)
Spiderclimb + web (spiders)
Tiny + spiderclimb for exploring (bugs). Note this one is debatable.
[added] Beast of Burden (ox, horse) for carrying party members, carts, or other heavy loads
Now the second question for specifications. How should a Wild Shape Moon Druid compare in combat to other classes from a numbers perspective? Note damage per round can be easily adjusted in design by tweaking weapon dice size, to hit bonuses, and additional rider effects. Durability can be tweaked by AC, temp HP, resistance, or concentration enhancement.
A Wild Shape Moon Druid should deal less damage than the Warrior classes (barbarian, fighter, monk). We do not yet know how these classes will look in the UA.
A Wild Shape Moon Druid should be less durable than the Warrior classes (barbarian, fighter, monk).
Should a Wild Shape Moon Druid deal more, less, or the same damage as a rogue?
Should a Wild Shape Moon Druid deal less damage or similar damage compared to rangers and paladins? Remember Druids have more spells at higher levels and more spell slots.
Should a Wild Shape Moon Druid be more, less, or just as durable as a paladin/cleric in heavy armor?
My initial guess is that Moon Druids durability should be comparable to Cleric of the Holy Order Protector, but the flavor and mechanics should be unique. Moon Druid offense should be higher than a cleric because of spell casting restrictions.
Other utility features: blindsight, flyby + high fly speed, stealth proficiency, keen senses (i.e. track like a bloodhound), become good at jumping, something good at athletics for when the barbarian rolls at natural 1, be big enough to carry other party members,
As far as how capable the Moon Druid should be in melee, I actually found 5e's way of doing it to be fairly balanced (outside levels 2-4, obviously).
This is ideal in my eyes.
Offense: Moon Druid should do much less raw damage in their beast forms than true melee characters and need to get the bulk of their damage from spellcasting and concentrating on spells while wildshaped. This way the druid is still competitive in damage only by using their fullcaster status.
Defense: Moon Druid should be comparably tanky to dedicated melee characters, but do so differently than they do. Old Moon Druid had massive HP reserves and could convert spell slots into more HP, giving them a sort of "Wolverine" feel where they're healing through the pain. I liked that flavor for druid tankiness. It also just easily plays into the druid's flavor of turning into big, beefy monsters and fighting groups of smaller humanoid enemies. Even if we ditch the idea of each form being a second life (which admittedly I also really liked the flavor of but clearly the class designers feel differently) it should be able to endure the damage through self healing at least, but do so in a way that they are doing more than spamming self heals every round.
I realize this one is probably going to be controversial so I'll give my reasoning. Unlike other melee spellcasters druids actually completely give up their ability to cast new spells when they shift. This is a huge opportunity cost given how easy it is to lose concentration when getting hit by multiple opponents. Giving up the power of spellcasting to have the tankiness (but not damage output) of a martial seems like a fair enough trade-off. Additionally turning into a huge grizzly bear and then playing the skirmisher game just feels thematically inappropriate. Moon Druid wants to be in the thick of the fighting trading blows and mauling enemies. They need similar defensive power to a pure martial to get away with that or they'll end up playing more like rogues without the damage.
Utility: Moon Druids should be kings of melee control, as it plays into the druid's role as a support character who uses powerful control spells to tie enemies down and protect allies. Abilities like Constrict, Swallow, and the crocodile's special Bite attack are necessary for this. Dedicated melee characters should want to have a druid in their party because they allow the true melee guys to do even more damage by gaining advantage on foes knocked prone or being restrained.
As far as how capable the Moon Druid should be in melee, I actually found 5e's way of doing it to be fairly balanced (outside levels 2-4, obviously).
This is ideal in my eyes.
Offense: Moon Druid should do much less raw damage in their beast forms than true melee characters and need to get the bulk of their damage from spellcasting and concentrating on spells while wildshaped. This way the druid is still competitive in damage only by using their fullcaster status.
Defense: Moon Druid should be comparably tanky to dedicated melee characters, but do so differently than they do. Old Moon Druid had massive HP reserves and could convert spell slots into more HP, giving them a sort of "Wolverine" feel where they're healing through the pain. I liked that flavor for druid tankiness. It also just easily plays into the druid's flavor of turning into big, beefy monsters and fighting groups of smaller humanoid enemies. Even if we ditch the idea of each form being a second life (which admittedly I also really liked the flavor of but clearly the class designers feel differently) it should be able to endure the damage through self healing at least, but do so in a way that they are doing more than spamming self heals every round.
I realize this one is probably going to be controversial so I'll give my reasoning. Unlike other melee spellcasters druids actually completely give up their ability to cast new spells when they shift. This is a huge opportunity cost given how easy it is to lose concentration when getting hit by multiple opponents. Giving up the power of spellcasting to have the tankiness (but not damage output) of a martial seems like a fair enough trade-off. Additionally turning into a huge grizzly bear and then playing the skirmisher game just feels thematically inappropriate. Moon Druid wants to be in the thick of the fighting trading blows and mauling enemies. They need similar defensive power to a pure martial to get away with that or they'll end up playing more like rogues without the damage.
Utility: Moon Druids should be kings of melee control, as it plays into the druid's role as a support character who uses powerful control spells to tie enemies down and protect allies. Abilities like Constrict, Swallow, and the crocodile's special Bite attack are necessary for this. Dedicated melee characters should want to have a druid in their party because they allow the true melee guys to do even more damage by gaining advantage on foes knocked prone or being restrained.
This. Totally.
Similar to what I said in a previous post.
I don't often get to play myself unfortunately, but when I do my character is a moon druid in a party with two barbarians and a evoker wizard. I don't do anywhere near the damage of anyone else (except when I critted as a charging elk!), but I like that I can run up and distract the heck out of the enemy as a cave bear or giant snake and basically just distract them, take the punishment and pin them down while my allies take them out. I see that as my role in the party. Official Punching Bag.
And if I run out of wild-shaping or don't want to risk using it yet then druid spells are great at battlefield control (or thornwhipping bad guys into pits)
I guess with these new druid changes, a moon druid can still be the Official Punching Bag. Except now they'll end up dead at the end of it so they can roll up a new non-druid character?
Now the second question for specifications. How should a Wild Shape Moon Druid compare in combat to other classes from a numbers perspective? Note damage per round can be easily adjusted in design by tweaking weapon dice size, to hit bonuses, and additional rider effects. Durability can be tweaked by AC, temp HP, resistance, or concentration enhancement.
A Wild Shape Moon Druid should deal less damage than the Warrior classes (barbarian, fighter, monk). We do not yet know how these classes will look in the UA.
A Wild Shape Moon Druid should be less durable than the Warrior classes (barbarian, fighter, monk).
Should a Wild Shape Moon Druid deal more, less, or the same damage as a rogue?
Should a Wild Shape Moon Druid deal less damage or similar damage compared to rangers and paladins? Remember Druids have more spells at higher levels and more spell slots.
Should a Wild Shape Moon Druid be more, less, or just as durable as a paladin/cleric in heavy armor?
My initial guess is that Moon Druids durability should be comparable to Cleric of the Holy Order Protector, but the flavor and mechanics should be unique. Moon Druid offense should be higher than a cleric because of spell casting restrictions.
When considering Moon Druid specifically, we really need to consider what is the desired playstyle?
Play Style 1: Moon Druid should cast a concentration spell, then transform into their WS and both simultaneously for the duration of the combat. This requires: (1) WS form must be better damage than using cantrips (2) It must be really easy to maintain concentration while in WS. (3) WS must have durability to last the entire combat in melee (i.e. comparable durability to a barbarian or paladin).
Play Style 2: Moon Druid should transform into their WS and use their spellslots while in WS, to be a "magic bear" type character This requires: (1) Multiple ways to use spell slots while in WS to provide a variety of functions. (2) WS + uses of spellslots in WS must make Moon Druid equivalent in power to either a martial (e.g. paladin) or a martial-focused caster (e.g. cleric) The easiest solution here would be to allow full spellcasting while in WS, and have WS use the same HP, slightly lower AC, and slightly higher damage than your normal form.
Play Style 3: Moon Druid should transform into their WS and not use magic at all in combat. This requires: (1) WS should be of equal overall power to a Fighter or Barbarian.
Play Style 4: Moon Druid should be a full caster first and foremost, and only use WS for extra mobility if they get into trouble. This require: (1) WS should have very high movement speeds and lots of different movement speeds. (2) WS should have some way to avoid taking AoO.
Current 5e Moon Druid tries to do Play Style 1, however, it kind of fails at it because you have to use Feats to buff your concentration while in WS form, thus at low levels you play as Play Style 3 since you can't maintain concentration in WS and can't cast spells in WS, then from level 4-12 you use Play Style 1 having taken Warcaster at level 4, but by level 12 running out of spellslots is not something you need to worry about and your high level spells are just so good that you use Play Style 4. Until you hit Level 18 and then you can use Play Style 2.
Did my first couple of playtests with our specific playtesting campaign. We're only at level 5, but there are a couple things that jump out.
While I like the idea of having a basic WS template, they need to make some options. Some add additional movement, or movement types. Some add additional abilities. Some may replace abilities. (Constrictor snake. Swap your attacks for a grapple attack....yadda, yadda, yadda.)
I can't go toe-to-toe with anything significant that we fight at 5th level. AC is too low, and even with a good HP build (Con 16 and Toughness for 56 HP at level 5), I can't take many rounds of attacks. A small swarm or a large foe can gank me in a few rounds no matter what. The things that might increase my ability to survive are all Concentration, and I have very little chance of maintaining Concentration after a few hits. And I will quickly take a few hits.
Right now, I don't see where Druid is supposed to live in the game. This version of WS just seems too restrictive and it has lost the thing that made it appealing which is the versatility for dealing with a variety of problems. I'll be throwing a ton of Unsatisfieds at this next survey.
Current 5e Moon Druid tries to do Play Style 1, however, it kind of fails at it because you have to use Feats to buff your concentration while in WS form, thus at low levels you play as Play Style 3 since you can't maintain concentration in WS and can't cast spells in WS, then from level 4-12 you use Play Style 1 having taken Warcaster at level 4, but by level 12 running out of spellslots is not something you need to worry about and your high level spells are just so good that you use Play Style 4. Until you hit Level 18 and then you can use Play Style 2.
A way to maintain concentration baked into the class would do wonders to make Play Style 1 viable. Call it "Fury of Nature" and have it give the druid advantage on concentration checks when in wildshape form to compensate for the drop in AC. Warlocks get something similar through invocations so I think it'd be fair as a unique trait Moon Druids get at level 3 when choosing their sub-class.
If you're a Druid and your backstory isn't, "I grew up on Dinosaur Island", you're leaving money on the table.
Hilarious and so true!
Since my DM let me choose an Aarakocra Druid in one campaign, My backstory was my Aarakocra got lost from the elemental plane of air and stumbled across Dinosaur island, where he found a group of moon druids who shared various... "substances" with him and he decided to join up. Travelling around to see more of nature and found the party while flying over neverwinter woods. Does about as good a job! Also explains why he has seen Polar Bears and Giant Constrictor Snakes.
I get wanting to keep animal statistics out of the hands of players. If players have access to monster statistics, it's an invitation to metagame. On the other hand, moving away from those has me concerned we're potentially losing out on more. How are mounts going to work? Are we still going to be able to buy a mastiff or riding horse? Or are we getting a generic template for domesticated creatures?
There's a real possibility they're dumbing this down too far. We're already at the point where the optimal form for Wild Shape will always have hands with opposable thumbs. That's a lot of monkeys, sea monkeys, and winged monkeys. I get what they're trying to do, because now it's open-ended enough people can legit play owlbears. But not like this. If we absolutely have to break up all the movement speeds, the here's my wishlist. Admittedly, it's a bit of a compromize between 5E and 1D&D.
They can adopt a beast form with no special movement speeds and a maximum Challenge Rating depending on their level: 1/4 (1st-level), 1/2 (5th-level), and 1 (9th-level).
The beast form can have a climb speed at 3rd-level, a swim speed at 5th-level, and a fly speed at 7th-level.
Size should not be a limiting factor, since the environment will already limit that.
Their equipment either falls to the ground or merges into the beast form.
The druid retains their statistics and ability to speak, but their AC, movement modes, Strength, Dexterity, and special senses are replaced.
While in a Wild Shape, the druid cannot cast spells with material components.
The druid adds their Wisdom modifier to their AC, and they use their Proficiency Bonus in place of the beast's.
Every time they use Wild Shape, they recover hit points as if they finished a long rest.
Number 8 is, to me, the big one. It cuts down on massively inflated HP pools while still giving them a practical use for shifting between or during fights. And the Circle of the Moon can go back to the 1:3 model; which makes more sense now that druids get their subclass at 3rd-level. Maybe even open it up to monstrosities, like the bulette, manticore, and owlbear.
I'm not sold on the 6th-level and 10th-level features, yet, but they aren't terrible. My goal here is to condense the Wild Shape stuff into fewer levels to hopefully open up more room for other features. I would not be opposed to something like the cleric's Holy Orders for druids, but I'm not sure what that should look like.
I get wanting to keep animal statistics out of the hands of players. If players have access to monster statistics, it's an invitation to metagame. On the other hand, moving away from those has me concerned we're potentially losing out on more. How are mounts going to work? Are we still going to be able to buy a mastiff or riding horse? Or are we getting a generic template for domesticated creatures?
There's a real possibility they're dumbing this down too far. We're already at the point where the optimal form for Wild Shape will always have hands with opposable thumbs. That's a lot of monkeys, sea monkeys, and winged monkeys. I get what they're trying to do, because now it's open-ended enough people can legit play owlbears. But not like this. If we absolutely have to break up all the movement speeds, the here's my wishlist. Admittedly, it's a bit of a compromize between 5E and 1D&D.
They can adopt a beast form with no special movement speeds and a maximum Challenge Rating depending on their level: 1/4 (1st-level), 1/2 (5th-level), and 1 (9th-level).
The beast form can have a climb speed at 3rd-level, a swim speed at 5th-level, and a fly speed at 7th-level.
Size should not be a limiting factor, since the environment will already limit that.
Their equipment either falls to the ground or merges into the beast form.
The druid retains their statistics and ability to speak, but their AC, movement modes, Strength, Dexterity, and special senses are replaced.
While in a Wild Shape, the druid cannot cast spells with material components.
The druid adds their Wisdom modifier to their AC, and they use their Proficiency Bonus in place of the beast's.
Every time they use Wild Shape, they recover hit points as if they finished a long rest.
Number 8 is, to me, the big one. It cuts down on massively inflated HP pools while still giving them a practical use for shifting between or during fights. And the Circle of the Moon can go back to the 1:3 model; which makes more sense now that druids get their subclass at 3rd-level. Maybe even open it up to monstrosities, like the bulette, manticore, and owlbear.
I'm not sold on the 6th-level and 10th-level features, yet, but they aren't terrible. My goal here is to condense the Wild Shape stuff into fewer levels to hopefully open up more room for other features. I would not be opposed to something like the cleric's Holy Orders for druids, but I'm not sure what that should look like.
Although a cool idea, I think the hybrid forms is a bad idea for the very reasons you mentioned. You should just be able to take the form of a beast and any abilities added would depend on if the form is capable of using it. I'm ok with most of the current template for Animal of the Land. It lacks utility and that needs to be addressed. Most non-Moon druids are using WS for the utility, not the combat features. And the template needs to reflect that. Climb speed should be included at level 1.
The Moon Druid should take the template and add to it. Combat WS could give an extra bonus to AC, maybe 13+WIS mod or 10+WIS+PB. Maybe you could use your Hit Dice to heal as a bonus action (although being able to cast Abjuration spells helps with this and kind of emulates what Moon Druids could do already).
The other two templates should just be rolled into the Land template, just giving swim and flying speeds when appropriate. As long as the form they take has the appropriate anatomy to do so. With no hybrid forms you don't have to worry about flying pigs. Aquatic/Aerial features at levels 7 and 9 need to be replaced with something else. Maybe move Tiny Critter (if it isn't part of the default template) and Alternating Forms to these levels.
Wild Resurgence needs to go and replaced with a thematic non-WS feature. Same with Healing Blossoms. Leave the healing to spell selection and give us something interesting.
As long as WoTC keeps a full spellcaster and a shape changing melee fighting character, with solid damage numbers (not great) together, you will lose on both ends. Just Split Moon Druid from spellcasting and make them a Beast-Warrior Martial and let them be a Quartercaster like the Eldritch Knight Fighter. Dumb all the Power into a crazy wild animal fighthing character, without becoming an Aarakocra/Owlin Monk. And let us use our magic items, right now we cant even use tattoos or any other passive magic item effect, thats just bad. No more magic attacks. How can you give us a first draw without the chance to deal magic damage as a martial...ohhh wait but you can change it into a element... thats not the same shit. Or just get rid of Moon Druid and Wildshape entirely, so it cant annoy anyone if WoTC is unable to make it fun to play. Homebrew content it is!
As long as WoTC keeps a full spellcaster and a shape changing melee fighting character, with solid damage numbers (not great) together, you will lose on both ends. Just Split Moon Druid from spellcasting and make them a Beast-Warrior Martial and let them be a Quartercaster like the Eldritch Knight Fighter. Dumb all the Power into a crazy wild animal fighthing character, without becoming an Aarakocra/Owlin Monk. And let us use our magic items, right now we cant even use tattoos or any other passive magic item effect, thats just bad. No more magic attacks. How can you give us a first draw without the chance to deal magic damage as a martial...ohhh wait but you can change it into a element... thats not the same shit. Or just get rid of Moon Druid and Wildshape entirely, so it cant annoy anyone if WoTC is unable to make it fun to play. Homebrew content it is!
I don't agree with your assessment. I think it is absolutely possible to have the full caster and shape changing melee fighting character without losing on both ends. First, the UA Template needs to be adjusted. The AC is ok, HP is ok, damage is ok, for non-Moon Druid characters who usually don't use Wildshape for melee combat. They use it for utility or to fuel a subclass feature, like the Wildfire druid and Summon Wildfire Spirit (which will probably just be a use of Channel Nature now). But the template needs to give some more options for utility, not just climb, swim, fly speeds. Spider climb, Pounce, Charge, Pack Tactics, etc. could be added to flesh out the Template. Hybrid forms needs to go, but we should be able to keep saving throw proficiencies and skill proficiencies, at a minimum.
Then the Circle of the Moon subclass should take that template and add to it. Beef up the AC and HP as well as melee damage. It can all come under Combat Wildshape, along with changing as a bonus action and casting Abjuration spells that don't have an M component. I would also be fine if they could expend Hit Dice to heal while WS, but now that most of the healing spells are Abjuration, it might be a moot point.
From the Linked Thread: This is from page 10, but I joined the conversation on page 6 to try and explain how similar the framework of the UA was to the 5E version.
First, I agree that the UA wildshape is worse than the 5E version. It needs work.
Second, I agree that they failed to do anything substantive for non -WS focused with the exception of making official (not optional rule) using WS for summoning a familiar (which this version is better in some ways than the Tasha’s version, if I remember it correctly) and Healing Blossoms. Wether that ability is good or not, it’s playtest so can change based on feedback. So two new things that the 2014 PHB Druid didn’t have. Could non-WS druids use more, absolutely.
Third, ignore the templates themselves. You have the WS feature at level one. You get an improvement at level 7 for swim speed and an improvement at level 9 for flying speed. Both 2014 and UA get this, but in different ways and different levels (again, the UA version is worse, but that wasn’t my point) You get to cast spells in WS at 18 and Archdruid feature.
The bare bones of the UA look similar to the 2014 version. Neither of them do a damn thing to improve the non-WS Druid in any way. Tasha’s tried with Wild Companion and the UA is doing the same with Find Familiar and Healing Blossoms.
Im not saying the Ua is good by any means. Just that the UA as a skeleton looks basically the same as the 2014 version, just worse. And that’s what the playtest is for
Some of the features in the UA for Wildshape should just be part of the Wildshape rules and part of the Template (I think there only needs to be one Template). And the levels those WS features vacate should be used to flesh out the actual Druid as a Master of Nature a little more.
As long as WoTC keeps a full spellcaster and a shape changing melee fighting character, with solid damage numbers (not great) together, you will lose on both ends. Just Split Moon Druid from spellcasting and make them a Beast-Warrior Martial and let them be a Quartercaster like the Eldritch Knight Fighter. Dumb all the Power into a crazy wild animal fighthing character, without becoming an Aarakocra/Owlin Monk. And let us use our magic items, right now we cant even use tattoos or any other passive magic item effect, thats just bad. No more magic attacks. How can you give us a first draw without the chance to deal magic damage as a martial...ohhh wait but you can change it into a element... thats not the same shit. Or just get rid of Moon Druid and Wildshape entirely, so it cant annoy anyone if WoTC is unable to make it fun to play. Homebrew content it is!
I don't agree with your assessment. I think it is absolutely possible to have the full caster and shape changing melee fighting character without losing on both ends. First, the UA Template needs to be adjusted. The AC is ok, HP is ok, damage is ok, for non-Moon Druid characters who usually don't use Wildshape for melee combat. They use it for utility or to fuel a subclass feature, like the Wildfire druid and Summon Wildfire Spirit (which will probably just be a use of Channel Nature now). But the template needs to give some more options for utility, not just climb, swim, fly speeds. Spider climb, Pounce, Charge, Pack Tactics, etc. could be added to flesh out the Template. Hybrid forms needs to go, but we should be able to keep saving throw proficiencies and skill proficiencies, at a minimum.
Then the Circle of the Moon subclass should take that template and add to it. Beef up the AC and HP as well as melee damage. It can all come under Combat Wildshape, along with changing as a bonus action and casting Abjuration spells that don't have an M component. I would also be fine if they could expend Hit Dice to heal while WS, but now that most of the healing spells are Abjuration, it might be a moot point.
From the Linked Thread: This is from page 10, but I joined the conversation on page 6 to try and explain how similar the framework of the UA was to the 5E version.
First, I agree that the UA wildshape is worse than the 5E version. It needs work.
Second, I agree that they failed to do anything substantive for non -WS focused with the exception of making official (not optional rule) using WS for summoning a familiar (which this version is better in some ways than the Tasha’s version, if I remember it correctly) and Healing Blossoms. Wether that ability is good or not, it’s playtest so can change based on feedback. So two new things that the 2014 PHB Druid didn’t have. Could non-WS druids use more, absolutely.
Third, ignore the templates themselves. You have the WS feature at level one. You get an improvement at level 7 for swim speed and an improvement at level 9 for flying speed. Both 2014 and UA get this, but in different ways and different levels (again, the UA version is worse, but that wasn’t my point) You get to cast spells in WS at 18 and Archdruid feature.
The bare bones of the UA look similar to the 2014 version. Neither of them do a damn thing to improve the non-WS Druid in any way. Tasha’s tried with Wild Companion and the UA is doing the same with Find Familiar and Healing Blossoms.
Im not saying the Ua is good by any means. Just that the UA as a skeleton looks basically the same as the 2014 version, just worse. And that’s what the playtest is for
Some of the features in the UA for Wildshape should just be part of the Wildshape rules and part of the Template (I think there only needs to be one Template). And the levels those WS features vacate should be used to flesh out the actual Druid as a Master of Nature a little more.
I love to create theoretical constructs of "what could be, how can we achieve our goals". As hard as im trying i cant figure out how to create a balanced Martial and Spellcaster mix. You can multiclass Martial + Spellcaster and become stronger than this draw of the Moon Druid. On the Otherside, you have to limit the time you can play wildshaped. Its all a numbers game, maybe WoTC will find numbers which fit, maybe not.
Some requIrements are magic attacks and use of magic items, otherwise dont even try to.
As long as WoTC keeps a full spellcaster and a shape changing melee fighting character, with solid damage numbers (not great) together, you will lose on both ends. Just Split Moon Druid from spellcasting and make them a Beast-Warrior Martial and let them be a Quartercaster like the Eldritch Knight Fighter. Dumb all the Power into a crazy wild animal fighthing character, without becoming an Aarakocra/Owlin Monk. And let us use our magic items, right now we cant even use tattoos or any other passive magic item effect, thats just bad. No more magic attacks. How can you give us a first draw without the chance to deal magic damage as a martial...ohhh wait but you can change it into a element... thats not the same shit. Or just get rid of Moon Druid and Wildshape entirely, so it cant annoy anyone if WoTC is unable to make it fun to play. Homebrew content it is!
I agree with the last point. I'd rather see Wildshape removed and replaced entirely with something new than this UA version of Wildshape. The 5e version of Wildshape is NOT broken beyond level 5, it does not need to be nerfed. If people don't like it then just throw it away, Druids already get Polymorph which can serve the same purpose just at higher levels.
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Aye, but the DMs that do that aren't usually running a full campaign. Those are drop-in / drop-out game DMs who have a hate on for druids probably after some munchkin player who can't get invited to a full campaign did the Shepherd Druid with 16 velociraptor thing. It's the interesting thing about D&D, there are so many formats people play in that have completely different problems.
However, even with a DM that randomizes creatures Conjure Animals is still useful for simply putting bodies on the field (which is why those DMs are shooting themselves in the foot, since when creatures are chosen randomly, your best bet is always 8xCR 1/4). The beasts can always grapple or take the Help action, which means if you aren't likely to get good higher CR animals just action economy is the best strategy. And if you take away utility, well now you're just ensuring the druid saves their slots for combat.
Have to say: Hate the changes to the wildshape.
I understand that they maybe wanted to tone done the whole 'hit point' buffer thing and prevent players from having to look up beast stats all the time (though this is quite easy now if you have DnD beyond!). But I feel the proposed changes are losing too much of what makes wildshape actually fun and usable.
For a non-moon druid, being able to wildshape was mostly for scouting and reconnaissance and, if high enough level, for the utility 'riders' that certain forms had - e.g. a spider for ability to spider-climb.
For a moon druid, it was mostly for combat of course but the utilities of certain forms became more useful for combat (since you could access certain forms at earlier levels).
All of this has pretty much gone as far as I'm concerned making wildshape not fit for purpose.
For a non-moon druid, wildshape is now almost completely pointless, with no utility abilities and the ability to be tiny not kicking in until ELEVENTH level. Why would a druid even use it?
For a moon druid, wildshape is supposed to be for combat, but without the hit point buffer you are objectively worse in every way to any other class in combat. You now lose all your other class features, feats etc (why???) and you don't even get any of the useful utility abilities to help you. Being able to cast abjuration spells and do unarmed strikes (?? this just feels odd) really does not make up for any of this.
Suggestions:
Assuming WOTC don't want to walk back on the whole wildshape stat block thing then...
* I feel there needs to be something to make wildshape useful to all druids. Honestly can't see why the ability to be Tiny can't be accessible much earlier, maybe still with the 10 minute clause (which moon druids get to ignore). Perhaps the stat blocks themselves can even be toned down in general, but moon druids get additional bonuses.
* For moon druids there needs to be something to allow them to hold their own in combat. Their AC and damage is already going to be far lower than their melee-oriented allies, which I'm ok with. This is the case in the current rules, but currently its their ability to soak hits that makes them stand out from the crowd - even if they just stand there and distract enemies while the party's barbarians eliminate everyone else! Perhaps just a burst of temporary hit points when they first wildshape?
* There needs to be more utility options. You get Climb and MultiAttack eventually but I would much prefer a list of options to choose from. These options could be gated by level, with moon druids getting access to higher-level options earlier. E.g. When you wild-shape choose one of the following options: Climb, MultiAttack, Poison, Shoot Web, Grab Enemy etc.
I posted in the main thread for this UA, but it'd be good to get my thoughts down all in one place. Firstly, here's what I think of the changes:
My current preferred updates (subject to change at random on a whim) are:
Basically the idea is that instead of adding a whole new set of templates with the same problems that others have, we build upon the new find familiar and summon beast spells to do the heavy lifting, as these spells are presumably the template for summoning spells going forward anyway. Summon beast has the same basic problem as wildshape (lack of utility compared to spells that can conjure specific monsters) so fixing that for that spell solves the same problem for wildshape, and means less redundancy/simpler Druid class.
Scaling is as simple as casting the spells at higher levels. This same template could be used to also replace Healing Blossom, e.g- it could arrive at 5th-level as a Channel Nature to cast aura of vitality. I would probably limit the maximum level of Channel Nature spells to 5th- or 6th-, with features at higher levels providing different added benefits. This limits Wildshape to a buffer of ~50 hit-points for non-Moon Druids, or 85 for Moon Druids, compared to the previous 126 for a mammoth or whatever. Due to the way the levelling works, the multiattack for summon beast kicks in later (need to cast at 4th-level to get a 2nd attack, so 7th-level in Druid) but I think getting the hit-point buffer back makes it worth it.
Personally I wouldn't bother limiting the sea and air forms; if it's a problem for Wildshape then it's a problem for Wild Companion/find familiar generally, if a Druid wants to burn a Channel Nature to bypass an obstacle a bit more easily I say let them. There seems to be a misconception that Wildshape is overpowered for recon but you're only as stealthy or as useful as the new form, whereas a Rogue can actually stay hidden, pick locks etc., and it's usually preferable to have more than one player who can infiltrate (they can go together, fill in if one is missing etc.) anyway.
Since these changes essentially offload scaling to spells, the class becomes simpler and we get more scope to do something more interesting with the class feature. Quillcannon has a thread of ideas for an Eldritch Invocation style feature for Druid which I really like; I think it'd need to be a smaller list for OneD&D, but I could see it as a way to further customise Channel Nature and/or Wildshape as the Druid levels up. Even if it were just 6-8 options and you get to pick two or three by the end it could allow for Druid builds to be more varied.
Not related to Wildshape, but I'd like to see a Channel Nature (possibly added by an "invocation"?) focused on primal magic; the Druid is after all the main Primal caster but we've no way to boost those spells, being able to use Channel Nature to temporarily boost them would be good for those that want to play an elemental/nature/primal mage build that doesn't use wildshape much.
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I think your idea is interesting and simplifies it somewhat. But I could also see WS using a similar template instead of the three in the UA with maybe some added features, and not the spell.
One thing I don’t particularly like is hybrid forms. I’m sure it would be cool to be an owlbear but at the same time can lead to odd combinations. With the template (UA or spell) you can WS into a small elephant and still climb a vertical cliff face because you get a climb speed. I think it should be dependent on the form you take and if they have the anatomy to do so. Which hybrids really screws up because you could just say you are a small elephant with gorilla hands
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I haven’t read through this whole string, but here’s my two cents:
I love druids. They are a super fun and versatile class because they are able to do so much.
If you need hit points then turn into a beefy creature. If you need to go somewhere tight get tiny. The different abilities of creatures are what make wild shape so appealing. If you have the ability to choose what sort of features you’ll be gaining then you’re more useful.
I do admit that the current class over-emphasizes wild shape. However, utilizing the life of druids I think that WotC could very easily create some really cool abilities for druids that center around trees and plants, not just animals. They need more of a connection to nature itself. And when I say this I do not mean that they should get some 4th or 3rd level spell as a class feature so they can cast it an extra time without a slot. That is lazy and unfair to players looking for a unique class. I only say this because WotC did this to Paladin with Find Steed at 5th level. That is a waste of a feature, and I don’t want to see it happen to druids.
What we need, what we really need, is for druids to be made into a true masters of nature. If they get cool nature abilities and get to keep their wild shapes, though perhaps with less HP, then I see a bright future for druids.
Of course, if they eff it all up we can just keep playing 5e and homebrew our own druids.
Before proposing changes, perhaps it would be better to determine the objectives for druid design in the new edition.
This leads to my first question for specifications. What are the utility (non-combat) Wild Shape abilities that should be considered in the new edition? Here are the ones I've noticed mentioned, but I could be missing some. I'll edit in any additions.
Now the second question for specifications. How should a Wild Shape Moon Druid compare in combat to other classes from a numbers perspective? Note damage per round can be easily adjusted in design by tweaking weapon dice size, to hit bonuses, and additional rider effects. Durability can be tweaked by AC, temp HP, resistance, or concentration enhancement.
My initial guess is that Moon Druids durability should be comparable to Cleric of the Holy Order Protector, but the flavor and mechanics should be unique. Moon Druid offense should be higher than a cleric because of spell casting restrictions.
Other utility features: blindsight, flyby + high fly speed, stealth proficiency, keen senses (i.e. track like a bloodhound), become good at jumping, something good at athletics for when the barbarian rolls at natural 1, be big enough to carry other party members,
As far as how capable the Moon Druid should be in melee, I actually found 5e's way of doing it to be fairly balanced (outside levels 2-4, obviously).
This is ideal in my eyes.
Offense: Moon Druid should do much less raw damage in their beast forms than true melee characters and need to get the bulk of their damage from spellcasting and concentrating on spells while wildshaped. This way the druid is still competitive in damage only by using their fullcaster status.
Defense: Moon Druid should be comparably tanky to dedicated melee characters, but do so differently than they do. Old Moon Druid had massive HP reserves and could convert spell slots into more HP, giving them a sort of "Wolverine" feel where they're healing through the pain. I liked that flavor for druid tankiness. It also just easily plays into the druid's flavor of turning into big, beefy monsters and fighting groups of smaller humanoid enemies. Even if we ditch the idea of each form being a second life (which admittedly I also really liked the flavor of but clearly the class designers feel differently) it should be able to endure the damage through self healing at least, but do so in a way that they are doing more than spamming self heals every round.
I realize this one is probably going to be controversial so I'll give my reasoning. Unlike other melee spellcasters druids actually completely give up their ability to cast new spells when they shift. This is a huge opportunity cost given how easy it is to lose concentration when getting hit by multiple opponents. Giving up the power of spellcasting to have the tankiness (but not damage output) of a martial seems like a fair enough trade-off. Additionally turning into a huge grizzly bear and then playing the skirmisher game just feels thematically inappropriate. Moon Druid wants to be in the thick of the fighting trading blows and mauling enemies. They need similar defensive power to a pure martial to get away with that or they'll end up playing more like rogues without the damage.
Utility: Moon Druids should be kings of melee control, as it plays into the druid's role as a support character who uses powerful control spells to tie enemies down and protect allies. Abilities like Constrict, Swallow, and the crocodile's special Bite attack are necessary for this. Dedicated melee characters should want to have a druid in their party because they allow the true melee guys to do even more damage by gaining advantage on foes knocked prone or being restrained.
This. Totally.
Similar to what I said in a previous post.
I don't often get to play myself unfortunately, but when I do my character is a moon druid in a party with two barbarians and a evoker wizard. I don't do anywhere near the damage of anyone else (except when I critted as a charging elk!), but I like that I can run up and distract the heck out of the enemy as a cave bear or giant snake and basically just distract them, take the punishment and pin them down while my allies take them out. I see that as my role in the party. Official Punching Bag.
And if I run out of wild-shaping or don't want to risk using it yet then druid spells are great at battlefield control (or thornwhipping bad guys into pits)
I guess with these new druid changes, a moon druid can still be the Official Punching Bag. Except now they'll end up dead at the end of it so they can roll up a new non-druid character?
When considering Moon Druid specifically, we really need to consider what is the desired playstyle?
Play Style 1: Moon Druid should cast a concentration spell, then transform into their WS and both simultaneously for the duration of the combat.
This requires:
(1) WS form must be better damage than using cantrips
(2) It must be really easy to maintain concentration while in WS.
(3) WS must have durability to last the entire combat in melee (i.e. comparable durability to a barbarian or paladin).
Play Style 2: Moon Druid should transform into their WS and use their spellslots while in WS, to be a "magic bear" type character
This requires:
(1) Multiple ways to use spell slots while in WS to provide a variety of functions.
(2) WS + uses of spellslots in WS must make Moon Druid equivalent in power to either a martial (e.g. paladin) or a martial-focused caster (e.g. cleric)
The easiest solution here would be to allow full spellcasting while in WS, and have WS use the same HP, slightly lower AC, and slightly higher damage than your normal form.
Play Style 3: Moon Druid should transform into their WS and not use magic at all in combat.
This requires:
(1) WS should be of equal overall power to a Fighter or Barbarian.
Play Style 4: Moon Druid should be a full caster first and foremost, and only use WS for extra mobility if they get into trouble.
This require:
(1) WS should have very high movement speeds and lots of different movement speeds.
(2) WS should have some way to avoid taking AoO.
Current 5e Moon Druid tries to do Play Style 1, however, it kind of fails at it because you have to use Feats to buff your concentration while in WS form, thus at low levels you play as Play Style 3 since you can't maintain concentration in WS and can't cast spells in WS, then from level 4-12 you use Play Style 1 having taken Warcaster at level 4, but by level 12 running out of spellslots is not something you need to worry about and your high level spells are just so good that you use Play Style 4. Until you hit Level 18 and then you can use Play Style 2.
Did my first couple of playtests with our specific playtesting campaign. We're only at level 5, but there are a couple things that jump out.
While I like the idea of having a basic WS template, they need to make some options. Some add additional movement, or movement types. Some add additional abilities. Some may replace abilities. (Constrictor snake. Swap your attacks for a grapple attack....yadda, yadda, yadda.)
I can't go toe-to-toe with anything significant that we fight at 5th level. AC is too low, and even with a good HP build (Con 16 and Toughness for 56 HP at level 5), I can't take many rounds of attacks. A small swarm or a large foe can gank me in a few rounds no matter what. The things that might increase my ability to survive are all Concentration, and I have very little chance of maintaining Concentration after a few hits. And I will quickly take a few hits.
Right now, I don't see where Druid is supposed to live in the game. This version of WS just seems too restrictive and it has lost the thing that made it appealing which is the versatility for dealing with a variety of problems. I'll be throwing a ton of Unsatisfieds at this next survey.
A way to maintain concentration baked into the class would do wonders to make Play Style 1 viable. Call it "Fury of Nature" and have it give the druid advantage on concentration checks when in wildshape form to compensate for the drop in AC. Warlocks get something similar through invocations so I think it'd be fair as a unique trait Moon Druids get at level 3 when choosing their sub-class.
Hilarious and so true!
Since my DM let me choose an Aarakocra Druid in one campaign, My backstory was my Aarakocra got lost from the elemental plane of air and stumbled across Dinosaur island, where he found a group of moon druids who shared various... "substances" with him and he decided to join up. Travelling around to see more of nature and found the party while flying over neverwinter woods. Does about as good a job! Also explains why he has seen Polar Bears and Giant Constrictor Snakes.
I get wanting to keep animal statistics out of the hands of players. If players have access to monster statistics, it's an invitation to metagame. On the other hand, moving away from those has me concerned we're potentially losing out on more. How are mounts going to work? Are we still going to be able to buy a mastiff or riding horse? Or are we getting a generic template for domesticated creatures?
There's a real possibility they're dumbing this down too far. We're already at the point where the optimal form for Wild Shape will always have hands with opposable thumbs. That's a lot of monkeys, sea monkeys, and winged monkeys. I get what they're trying to do, because now it's open-ended enough people can legit play owlbears. But not like this. If we absolutely have to break up all the movement speeds, the here's my wishlist. Admittedly, it's a bit of a compromize between 5E and 1D&D.
Number 8 is, to me, the big one. It cuts down on massively inflated HP pools while still giving them a practical use for shifting between or during fights. And the Circle of the Moon can go back to the 1:3 model; which makes more sense now that druids get their subclass at 3rd-level. Maybe even open it up to monstrosities, like the bulette, manticore, and owlbear.
I'm not sold on the 6th-level and 10th-level features, yet, but they aren't terrible. My goal here is to condense the Wild Shape stuff into fewer levels to hopefully open up more room for other features. I would not be opposed to something like the cleric's Holy Orders for druids, but I'm not sure what that should look like.
Although a cool idea, I think the hybrid forms is a bad idea for the very reasons you mentioned. You should just be able to take the form of a beast and any abilities added would depend on if the form is capable of using it. I'm ok with most of the current template for Animal of the Land. It lacks utility and that needs to be addressed. Most non-Moon druids are using WS for the utility, not the combat features. And the template needs to reflect that. Climb speed should be included at level 1.
The Moon Druid should take the template and add to it. Combat WS could give an extra bonus to AC, maybe 13+WIS mod or 10+WIS+PB. Maybe you could use your Hit Dice to heal as a bonus action (although being able to cast Abjuration spells helps with this and kind of emulates what Moon Druids could do already).
The other two templates should just be rolled into the Land template, just giving swim and flying speeds when appropriate. As long as the form they take has the appropriate anatomy to do so. With no hybrid forms you don't have to worry about flying pigs. Aquatic/Aerial features at levels 7 and 9 need to be replaced with something else. Maybe move Tiny Critter (if it isn't part of the default template) and Alternating Forms to these levels.
Wild Resurgence needs to go and replaced with a thematic non-WS feature. Same with Healing Blossoms. Leave the healing to spell selection and give us something interesting.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
As long as WoTC keeps a full spellcaster and a shape changing melee fighting character, with solid damage numbers (not great) together, you will lose on both ends. Just Split Moon Druid from spellcasting and make them a Beast-Warrior Martial and let them be a Quartercaster like the Eldritch Knight Fighter. Dumb all the Power into a crazy wild animal fighthing character, without becoming an Aarakocra/Owlin Monk. And let us use our magic items, right now we cant even use tattoos or any other passive magic item effect, thats just bad. No more magic attacks. How can you give us a first draw without the chance to deal magic damage as a martial...ohhh wait but you can change it into a element... thats not the same shit. Or just get rid of Moon Druid and Wildshape entirely, so it cant annoy anyone if WoTC is unable to make it fun to play. Homebrew content it is!
I don't agree with your assessment. I think it is absolutely possible to have the full caster and shape changing melee fighting character without losing on both ends. First, the UA Template needs to be adjusted. The AC is ok, HP is ok, damage is ok, for non-Moon Druid characters who usually don't use Wildshape for melee combat. They use it for utility or to fuel a subclass feature, like the Wildfire druid and Summon Wildfire Spirit (which will probably just be a use of Channel Nature now). But the template needs to give some more options for utility, not just climb, swim, fly speeds. Spider climb, Pounce, Charge, Pack Tactics, etc. could be added to flesh out the Template. Hybrid forms needs to go, but we should be able to keep saving throw proficiencies and skill proficiencies, at a minimum.
Then the Circle of the Moon subclass should take that template and add to it. Beef up the AC and HP as well as melee damage. It can all come under Combat Wildshape, along with changing as a bonus action and casting Abjuration spells that don't have an M component. I would also be fine if they could expend Hit Dice to heal while WS, but now that most of the healing spells are Abjuration, it might be a moot point.
The UA focuses too much on Wildshape (well it doesn't too much more than 5E as I pointed out in this thread.)
From the Linked Thread: This is from page 10, but I joined the conversation on page 6 to try and explain how similar the framework of the UA was to the 5E version.
First, I agree that the UA wildshape is worse than the 5E version. It needs work.
Second, I agree that they failed to do anything substantive for non -WS focused with the exception of making official (not optional rule) using WS for summoning a familiar (which this version is better in some ways than the Tasha’s version, if I remember it correctly) and Healing Blossoms. Wether that ability is good or not, it’s playtest so can change based on feedback. So two new things that the 2014 PHB Druid didn’t have. Could non-WS druids use more, absolutely.
Third, ignore the templates themselves. You have the WS feature at level one. You get an improvement at level 7 for swim speed and an improvement at level 9 for flying speed. Both 2014 and UA get this, but in different ways and different levels (again, the UA version is worse, but that wasn’t my point) You get to cast spells in WS at 18 and Archdruid feature.
The bare bones of the UA look similar to the 2014 version. Neither of them do a damn thing to improve the non-WS Druid in any way. Tasha’s tried with Wild Companion and the UA is doing the same with Find Familiar and Healing Blossoms.
Im not saying the Ua is good by any means. Just that the UA as a skeleton looks basically the same as the 2014 version, just worse. And that’s what the playtest is for
Some of the features in the UA for Wildshape should just be part of the Wildshape rules and part of the Template (I think there only needs to be one Template). And the levels those WS features vacate should be used to flesh out the actual Druid as a Master of Nature a little more.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I love to create theoretical constructs of "what could be, how can we achieve our goals". As hard as im trying i cant figure out how to create a balanced Martial and Spellcaster mix. You can multiclass Martial + Spellcaster and become stronger than this draw of the Moon Druid. On the Otherside, you have to limit the time you can play wildshaped. Its all a numbers game, maybe WoTC will find numbers which fit, maybe not.
Some requIrements are magic attacks and use of magic items, otherwise dont even try to.
I agree with the last point. I'd rather see Wildshape removed and replaced entirely with something new than this UA version of Wildshape. The 5e version of Wildshape is NOT broken beyond level 5, it does not need to be nerfed. If people don't like it then just throw it away, Druids already get Polymorph which can serve the same purpose just at higher levels.