Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
I'm also not seeing the "outsize impact on low or no magic item games"? If a DM wants low-magic then Artificer is just another class that either isn't available to players, or will have stricter limits on what they can do (and how they can do it), this is no more problematic than full casters or other half casters, meanwhile infusions are easily spun into non-magical inventions if you want to reflavour them.
But no. It is far harder for the DM to ban a whole class than it is for them to choose not to give the players a certain magic item, and it feels worse for the player as well. IMO the problem with Artificer actually arises in high magic games where their infusions become utterly pointless b/c the party already has the same or better magic items. Similar to how One D&D Wizard's power level being tied to gold availability is really bad game design, having the power level of the Artificer tied to how many magic items the DM decides to give out is bad game design, and just as the all of the old Ranger's abilities being tied to the particular terrain the DM decides to set the quest in was bad game design. The PHB should be a self-contained document with many player options all of which will lead to a good and useful character in all of the most common game styles.
It is far harder for the DM to ban a whole class than it is for them to choose not to give the players a certain magic item, and it feels worse for the player as well.
It may not be hard at all depending upon what the players actually want to play as in a low-magic setting; if a DM is upfront with what they're going for then players usually get onboard and self-moderate just fine with a bit of back and forth. There's also going to be edge cases when adapting magical classes to a non-/low-magic setting.
But I'd argue Artificer is actually one of the easier ones; infusions can be reflavoured as examples of especially ingenious invention, discuss with the DM how long it should take to develop and apply new infusions and all you're left with is the normal issue of what do about spells. Like Ranger you can probably get away with reflavouring spells; for example, on my Armorer Artificer I tied everything to his Arcane Armor, so when he casts thunderwave it's actually an extension of the Thunder Gauntlets punching the back of a specially crafted shield that amplifies the effect into a wave of thunder. It's a class that heavily encourages you to think not just about what you can do but how.
IMO the problem with Artificer actually arises in high magic games where their infusions become utterly pointless b/c the party already has the same or better magic items.
I don't really see how this is an issue either, as the Artificer can attune to more magic items so even if you're wading through piles of magic items everywhere you go, you still have more options in which ones you use (and can use more than anyone else). While infusions can be diminished if you keep finding items that do the same but better, there's no guarantee of that; infusions let you get exactly the effect you want, when you want it, so if all your combat needs are met by "proper" items you can just refocus on utility and other boosts.
But I think this is way too much discussion spent on the Artificer, this thread's supposed to be about Warlock; literally all I said is I don't want Warlock to be forced into the Arcane half-caster space that Artificer should (or inevitably will) be in.
It is far harder for the DM to ban a whole class than it is for them to choose not to give the players a certain magic item
Not really, no.
"Hey gang, welcome to session 0. In this world there are no artificers, so you can't use that class."
"Oh, OK, I'll play something else then."
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I have a hard time understanding the logic in a setting that bans the artificer because they channel minor magical effects through items but allows a guy who is born so magical they naturally cast spells of the highest power. I mean sure you can come up with a reason for it, but you could just as easily ban wizards, sorcerers, warlocks etc as being too high magic.
The tricky thing with a Warlock's identity is that their core feature is almost not to have one, or more specifically, to let the player choose what that identity is. In 5e there is nothing really that's core to being a warlock other than having a pact, and pact magic itself, everything else is customisation options in the form of pacts and invocations. This means that in many ways a Warlock's strength is the same as a Wizard's, versatility, except that it's more about build versatility rather than preparation.
In 5e Warlocks are sort of full casters, as through Mystic Arcana they gained access to the same spell levels as a full caster (and at the same time). The main difference was pact magic slots being short rest bound, which sadly meant that many warlock players were discouraged from casting spells unless they knew they could take plenty of short rests. In the latter case a warlock could be as powerful as any full caster, but in practice you couldn't rely on that, and many campaigns rarely take short rests at all.
But the proposed change in the UA is weird to me; it makes the warlock a half caster but without a fixed other half, as by default they're not half martials. Pact of the Blade lets you build in that direction, but it lacks invocations to really take it all the way, so you'll never become a true half caster/half martial, as you'll probably end up having to take at least some mystic arcanums to fill out your invocations. Really they need to bring back some of the abandoned invocations to give us more martial options; Life Drinker is… fine but not amazing, but what I'd really like to see is a return of Relentless Hex, tweaked to trigger when you cast/transfer hex (to eliminate the bonus action clash it used to have).
I'd also like to see some of the other hex invocations return; Maddening Hex for one, but I'd also really like to see one that allows hex to be transferred without a target being dead first, as you could combo that with Relentless Hex so I could finally build the telporting bladey boi that Relentless Hex always promised but never delivered. To me hex is a much better candidate for a core feature to the warlock than eldritch blast, but it needs the invocations to build around it.
Speaking of which, I think one of the biggest challenges to warlock identity is eldritch blast; I don't like that WotC have made it a core feature of Warlocks because eldritch blast spam is something I've always disliked about the class. The reason people are lured into it is because so many invocations are explicitly for it, but instead of opening up the invocations for more variety, they've made eldritch blast a mandatory feature of the class, so they've effectively doubled down on one of the problems, rather than fixing it.
I'd much rather see eldritch blast become a weaker Arcane list cantrip anybody can take, but with invocations that let you build it back up to previous levels if cantrip spam is what you want, or do the same for other cantrips if you'd prefer to be a cold damage spammer, fire damage spammer etc. Things like Repelling Blast could work just as effectively on another cantrip for example, Agonizing Blast might need a rethink (maybe once per turn rather than per hit, but with scaled damage as you level)?
I've always viewed warlocks as an edgy toolkit; it should let you build a whole bunch of different things, and in 5e there are a number of appealing options, but they've never been well balanced, and pretty much everything wants eldritch and agonizing blast because what else are you going to take?
I'd also prefer a different form of spell slot scaling for Warlocks, so they don't end up stealing the Arcane half-caster spot from Artificer (which really needs to be made a core class rather than be an afterthought yet again).
To the bolded point, I think it could be interesting if the warlock invocations around Hex should build around a melee Warlock, and Eldritch Blast invocations build around ranged Warlocks, like now. So you have two class features that you can customize to fit the type of play style you want. Hex would still have some advantages to combo with EB but could offer some powerful gish options as well.
Not sure I like that. Hex does not really seem melee focused to me, either mechanically or thematically. Yeah they could change it enough to make is so, but hexing people seems a pretty ranged/melee neutral concept.
I do think they should have built the class more around hex than eldritch blast as that is a more neutral delivery system, and if they are trying to emphasize gish as a option, then core features should be more neutral. So if like repelling blast was more repelling curse, and hexed victims are shoved by any attack from the warlock, or make it more teamwork like and shoved once per turn by any attack so the party gets shoves in as well. Maybe some kind of enhancement for when the warlock is the one landing the low. The core of hex could be some low curse effect like the disadvantage to attributes and maybe agonizing blast and have it scale as you level, maybe level 5 it applies to all attributes, level 10 it adds 1d6 per attack from the warlock, level 15 it applies disadvantage on first attack from the enemy etc. .
To the bolded point, I think it could be interesting if the warlock invocations around Hex should build around a melee Warlock, and Eldritch Blast invocations build around ranged Warlocks, like now. So you have two class features that you can customize to fit the type of play style you want. Hex would still have some advantages to combo with EB but could offer some powerful gish options as well.
I dunno about making hex melee specific, but I'd definitely like invocations that complement it in a melee build. Relentless Hex is the one I've mentioned already, and would like to see becoming part of the standard kit, but with the bonus action crunch fixed (i.e- let the teleport be used when you cast it or choose a new target). Being able to close faster is a big benefit to any melee character.
Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
"Alternative play styles"?
If I catch the implication you're putting forward, I think that's easily handled by including The Celestial Patron in the PHB (and using Joan of Arc + St. Catherine as an example), while possibly putting The Fiend and The Great Old One Patrons into the "alternative play styles" book you're suggesting.
I really like the concept of Hex becoming the common central warlock feature that can be modified by Invocations and Subclass Features, and it's something I've been thinking about for a bit. With my Warlock player, these are the ideas we're playtesting:
Hex becomes a Warlock feature, rather than spell, which has the same uses/day (2-4) as Channel Divinity/Nature. It scales to 2d6 at 9th level, and 3d6 at 17th.
Hex gains the following improvements:
5th level: Hex loses concentration.
11th level: Hex can affect a second creature within range when cast.
17th level: regain one use of Hex whenever you roll Initiative.
Eldritch Blast Invocations are shifted to be Hex Invocations (Agonizing Hex, Distant Hex, Repelling Hex, Sapping Hex) and apply to any attack roll that hits a Hexed creature (weapon or spell).
Created the new Hex Invocation: Powerful Hex (when you select a creature's ability stat when casting Hex, they also apply Disadvantage to saving throws made with that stat).
Subclasses key features off Hex. For example, with my Fiend Warlock player:
Dark One's Own Blessing activates on dropping a creature to 0hp but also on hitting a Hexed creature with an attack roll.
Dark One's Own Luck allows you to spend a use on subtracting a d10 from a Hexed creature's roll.
This still allows for varied playstyles (blaster, familiar, melee, etc.) but encourages customisation of the warlock and actual useful competition with Mystic Arcanum amongst the Invocations.
Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
"Alternative play styles"?
If I catch the implication you're putting forward, I think that's easily handled by including The Celestial Patron in the PHB (and using Joan of Arc + St. Catherine as an example), while possibly putting The Fiend and The Great Old One Patrons into the "alternative play styles" book you're suggesting.
I am talking about the 2014 warlocks short rest mechanic. It is something a lot of people like but they are moving away from that in an attempt to homogenize all styles of play in that regard. I don't think its a good idea as people who liked it now have no alternatives. But instead of giving up on it I'd rather they just punt it to a supplement where classes that play different might be more welcome.
What lack of identity? I've played a tomelock in 3 playtest games, and it really feels very warlock. I don't think it lacks identity.
Regarding the Mystic Arcanum tax, although I agree that it's a bit annoying having to invest all Eldritch Invocations into it to feel like a full caster, it's not really a "punishment" either. You choose the spell you want, which allows you to customize your warlock through the spells you choose. Would it be okay if it was a spell slot? Yes, definitely. I would like to see that. But if they don't, the warlock works just fine. I have had a great time with the warlock. At no time have I felt inferior to my partners (a bladelock warlock who only took a couple Mystic Arcanum and felt much more Gish than the old hexblade, a new wizard and a new fighter).
I understand that there are people who try the new warlock and don't like it for whatever reason. But I don't think it lacks identity, that it loses customization or that it is mechanically worse than the 2014 warlock. This new tomelock seemed much more fun and versatile than the previous one. It can improve? Sure, this is a playtest. I would like, as I said, that mystic arcanum gives you a spell slot. And I would also like book of shadow to scale in a way that allows you to choose level 2 (say level 11) and level 3 (say level 17) rituals.
I don't think it it lacks identity. I think the problem is that it /changes/ identity. Warlock fans (such as myself) like the identity of the short-rest pact caster that played more like an archer. There's nothing wrong with liking that. But, it looks like the short rest for many or most classes is going away. People need to accept that. If the short rest character is not going to be a thing, really what they have provided isn't bad.
Making it a half caster if you're getting rid of that short rest identity makes a ton of sense.
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Not sure I like that. Hex does not really seem melee focused to me, either mechanically or thematically. Yeah they could change it enough to make is so, but hexing people seems a pretty ranged/melee neutral concept.
I do think they should have built the class more around hex than eldritch blast as that is a more neutral delivery system, and if they are trying to emphasize gish as a option, then core features should be more neutral. So if like repelling blast was more repelling curse, and hexed victims are shoved by any attack from the warlock, or make it more teamwork like and shoved once per turn by any attack so the party gets shoves in as well. Maybe some kind of enhancement for when the warlock is the one landing the low. The core of hex could be some low curse effect like the disadvantage to attributes and maybe agonizing blast and have it scale as you level, maybe level 5 it applies to all attributes, level 10 it adds 1d6 per attack from the warlock, level 15 it applies disadvantage on first attack from the enemy etc. .
To the bolded point, I think it could be interesting if the warlock invocations around Hex should build around a melee Warlock, and Eldritch Blast invocations build around ranged Warlocks, like now. So you have two class features that you can customize to fit the type of play style you want. Hex would still have some advantages to combo with EB but could offer some powerful gish options as well.
I dunno about making hex melee specific, but I'd definitely like invocations that complement it in a melee build. Relentless Hex is the one I've mentioned already, and would like to see becoming part of the standard kit, but with the bonus action crunch fixed (i.e- let the teleport be used when you cast it or choose a new target). Being able to close faster is a big benefit to any melee character.
@MyDudeicus & Haravikk,
I should have been more specific, and worded it better, but I was on my phone then and didn't have much time. I should have said I think it would be interesting that they could, not should, build around Hex and melee. And not exclusively melee either. I think Hex should have options for both melee and range builds.
But along with Relentless Hex and Maddening Hex there could be invocation options that would be beneficial for melee builds. Cause the Frightened condition or give disadvantage to the hexed creatures attack rolls if attacking someone other than you, the new Dazed condition if you are within 5 feet of it (with a save possibly to avoid the condition), other debuffs, or buffs for you against them. Basically, give more invocation options to Hex like there are for EB, some being beneficial to melee. Maybe even some that give advantages to Chain's Pact Familiar like giving the bonus Hex damage to the familiar's Eldritch Strike
I just think if they are giving both EB and Hex to the Warlock at level 1, they should build on them with invocations more.
Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
"Alternative play styles"?
If I catch the implication you're putting forward, I think that's easily handled by including The Celestial Patron in the PHB (and using Joan of Arc + St. Catherine as an example), while possibly putting The Fiend and The Great Old One Patrons into the "alternative play styles" book you're suggesting.
I am talking about the 2014 warlocks short rest mechanic. It is something a lot of people like but they are moving away from that in an attempt to homogenize all styles of play in that regard. I don't think its a good idea as people who liked it now have no alternatives. But instead of giving up on it I'd rather they just punt it to a supplement where classes that play different might be more welcome.
I don't think they are looking for classes that play different, especially with the short rest mechanic. Play differently in different ways, maybe. But the Short Rest core class feature's train has left the station and not coming back. Not saying they want all play styles to be the same but they just don't want to base a core class mechanic on the short rest mechanic. I'm good if they decide to give back Pact Magic but make it Long Rest recharge. But things will have to be adjusted to keep the power balance. I think there is still a way for Warlock to play differently, but not with SR Pact Magic.
I think it's why they made Mystic Arcanum invocations. In the pre-survey video they talked about this. So you can't have more spells via half casting, more MA as a class feature, same or more invocations as 2014, and EB unchanged. With more spell slots (half casting) they could have kept MA as class features, even if they added 3rd-5th level spell options, but you would probably only get 4 invocations instead of 8 (2014) or 9 (UA) if they did.
I will like to see the next iteration of the Warlock in future UA's and see where they go with it.
I should have been more specific, and worded it better, but I was on my phone then and didn't have much time. I should have said I think it would be interesting that they could, not should, build around Hex and melee. And not exclusively melee either. I think Hex should have options for both melee and range builds.
Actually I think that's my bad, reading it back what I quoted wasn't really suggesting melee specific I just read it that way for some reason. I think it's a good option, though I actually really like the idea of hex being the core warlock spell, with invocations enabling you to tailor it for control/melee/ranged etc.
But really what I want is for eldritch blast to be one of several cantrip options I can built around, rather than being the warlock cantrip as it has been before, as I've just always found that a bit boring, especially when you're playing a heavily themed warlock where something elemental, or toll the dead etc. are much more flavourful but can't really compete with the raw damage of Agonizing Blast.
I really like the concept of Hex becoming the common central warlock feature that can be modified by Invocations and Subclass Features, and it's something I've been thinking about for a bit. With my Warlock player, these are the ideas we're playtesting:
Hex becomes a Warlock feature, rather than spell, which has the same uses/day (2-4) as Channel Divinity/Nature. It scales to 2d6 at 9th level, and 3d6 at 17th.
Hex gains the following improvements:
5th level: Hex loses concentration.
11th level: Hex can affect a second creature within range when cast.
17th level: regain one use of Hex whenever you roll Initiative.
Eldritch Blast Invocations are shifted to be Hex Invocations (Agonizing Hex, Distant Hex, Repelling Hex, Sapping Hex) and apply to any attack roll that hits a Hexed creature (weapon or spell).
This is a lot like what I'd love to see; instead of a second target for hex though I'd maybe just make it possible to transfer the hex without the original target being reduced to 0 hit-points, or make that an invocation?
That said, I could definitely see something like an "Infectious Hex" invocation that causes the hex effects to apply to not only your target, but also anything near to them (10 feet?), basically forcing the target to isolate themselves to avoid weakening its allies? Would also open up some interesting possibilities, for example if you Infectious Hexed an enemy that is then charmed so it can be forced to actually seek to maximise its hex aura for you.
5th-level might be too early for it to lose concentration; it might make more sense to have it scale, e.g- advantage on saving throws, auto-succeed on saving throws, then no concentration at all? It's tricky though, as the stronger hex can get, the more powerful eliminating concentration will become as it could enable some broken self-combos. For example, with your Powerful Hex suggestions + any persistent spell that requires repeated saving throws to end, you could be forcing disadvantage to every single one making it practically impossible for a target to break.
I could also see Lifedrinker becoming a hex invocation, e.g- if you're within 10 feet of a target when it takes damage from your hex it takes an extra d6 damage, and you can pick one of the hex d6's and regain that many hit-points. While this would still be usable by blasters willing to close the distance to top themselves up, it's more appropriate for a melee build who expects to be taking damage (and usually be in range). The healing still wouldn't be huge, but it'd be a lot more reliable (more d6's, so more chances at a 5 or 6).
Some interesting ideas! Yeah wasn't really sure about the 11th level improvement.
For Hex, by 5th level you've just gained access to 2nd level spells and your first 3rd level through Mystic Arcanum. From this point on, concentration makes Hex compete (unfavorably) with more powerful spells. Goes against the whole concept of making Hex a core feature if the class design actively discourages using it. If Hunter's Mark can have it concentration-free from level 1 (and scale with number of attacks), Hex will be fine at 5th.
With Lifedrinker (and Favour of the Chain Master and Gift of the Protector), I think they should be automatic upgrades for the cantrips at level 9. That, or there needs to be more options for Pact Boon Invocations.
For Hex, by 5th level you've just gained access to 2nd level spells and your first 3rd level through Mystic Arcanum. From this point on, concentration makes Hex compete (unfavorably) with more powerful spells. Goes against the whole concept of making Hex a core feature if the class design actively discourages using it. If Hunter's Mark can have it concentration-free from level 1 (and scale with number of attacks), Hex will be fine at 5th.
For some reason I keep forgetting hunter's mark is concentration free in the Expert playtest, though I don't think we know at this point if it's going to stay that way?
Getting rid of concentration early makes the balancing of a "build your own hex" setup tricky, but I guess if we assume Warlock stays as a half-caster, or some other half-caster-like scaling, then hex upgrades are competing with everything else you might take, like mystic arcanums etc. so it being potentially quite powerful isn't necessarily a major problem, as the stronger you make it, the less you're gaining elsewhere?
That said even if you only take two or three mystic arcanums, under the current wording you could still make these the highest possible levels available (so at 17th-level you could have three arcanums, one each of 7th-, 8th- and 9th-level). Maybe that invocation might need to change such that you can only take up to a level higher than you can currently take, so to get 9th-level picks you need to specifically invest in getting there?
It would still be possible to get to that level and also have boosted hex, but you probably wouldn't have much else, so that would make it one of several possible builds alongside doubling down on melee + hex, with fewer/earlier mystic arcanums only etc.
So I made a post a few weeks back on making both Hex and Invocations a more central and more impactful element of the Warlock class design, which seems to be what many of you are talking about now. I've taken some time since then to flush the idea out and develop a number of Hex based Invocations. Take a look, think you all might enjoy :
Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
"Alternative play styles"?
If I catch the implication you're putting forward, I think that's easily handled by including The Celestial Patron in the PHB (and using Joan of Arc + St. Catherine as an example), while possibly putting The Fiend and The Great Old One Patrons into the "alternative play styles" book you're suggesting.
I am talking about the 2014 warlocks short rest mechanic. It is something a lot of people like but they are moving away from that in an attempt to homogenize all styles of play in that regard. I don't think its a good idea as people who liked it now have no alternatives. But instead of giving up on it I'd rather they just punt it to a supplement where classes that play different might be more welcome.
In the "distant past" phrases like "alternate play styles" was practically a euphemism for having evil player characters. I see the point you're making now.
That said... I think the ship has sailed on the short-rest-focused-warlock. And I don't think that would change the release date of the Artificer. Though, I would agree that the Artificer should be in the OneD&D PHB. All official base starting classes should be in the PHB, IMO.
Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
"Alternative play styles"?
If I catch the implication you're putting forward, I think that's easily handled by including The Celestial Patron in the PHB (and using Joan of Arc + St. Catherine as an example), while possibly putting The Fiend and The Great Old One Patrons into the "alternative play styles" book you're suggesting.
I am talking about the 2014 warlocks short rest mechanic. It is something a lot of people like but they are moving away from that in an attempt to homogenize all styles of play in that regard. I don't think its a good idea as people who liked it now have no alternatives. But instead of giving up on it I'd rather they just punt it to a supplement where classes that play different might be more welcome.
In the "distant past" phrases like "alternate play styles" was practically a euphemism for having evil player characters. I see the point you're making now.
That said... I think the ship has sailed on the short-rest-focused-warlock. And I don't think that would change the release date of the Artificer. Though, I would agree that the Artificer should be in the OneD&D PHB. All official base starting classes should be in the PHB, IMO.
Maybe, it kind of depends on if game design is why they are making the change as opposed to something like VTT compatibility. If its VTT stuff their hands may be tied. If its based on a game design choice, then well this is a play test. That is one of the things this should be helping determine. If they aren't going to listen to other voices and be willing to walk back changes they thought were good why even have the play test.
We have done one playtest with each pact now, all at level 7. And the results have not been good in our opinion. The feel of the class is all but gone. Maybe voices like my groups are the vast minority, but if its not they may start to rethink their design.
Is it that much more complicated than a Warlock? The only difference really is that infusions, unlike invocations, can be swapped more easily but otherwise those features are pretty similar, with Artificers having no equivalent to a pact boon; the most complicated element is one infusion allowing access to a wide range of magic items, but like I say the easiest solution to replicate item is to just throw that one away and swap it for some new infusions to make the surface area smaller.
I'm not opposed to Artificer minus Replicate Item being in core, but again, that seems to not be what they've gone with.
It will be back. It's not like being non-core now has made the Artificer obscure or anything.
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Sure, but warlock and sorcerer could be sub classes of wizard as well.
I'd rather they put artificer in the core PH than bring the abomination of the one warlock into the game. Punt it to a later book where alternative play styles are supported.
But no. It is far harder for the DM to ban a whole class than it is for them to choose not to give the players a certain magic item, and it feels worse for the player as well. IMO the problem with Artificer actually arises in high magic games where their infusions become utterly pointless b/c the party already has the same or better magic items. Similar to how One D&D Wizard's power level being tied to gold availability is really bad game design, having the power level of the Artificer tied to how many magic items the DM decides to give out is bad game design, and just as the all of the old Ranger's abilities being tied to the particular terrain the DM decides to set the quest in was bad game design. The PHB should be a self-contained document with many player options all of which will lead to a good and useful character in all of the most common game styles.
It may not be hard at all depending upon what the players actually want to play as in a low-magic setting; if a DM is upfront with what they're going for then players usually get onboard and self-moderate just fine with a bit of back and forth. There's also going to be edge cases when adapting magical classes to a non-/low-magic setting.
But I'd argue Artificer is actually one of the easier ones; infusions can be reflavoured as examples of especially ingenious invention, discuss with the DM how long it should take to develop and apply new infusions and all you're left with is the normal issue of what do about spells. Like Ranger you can probably get away with reflavouring spells; for example, on my Armorer Artificer I tied everything to his Arcane Armor, so when he casts thunderwave it's actually an extension of the Thunder Gauntlets punching the back of a specially crafted shield that amplifies the effect into a wave of thunder. It's a class that heavily encourages you to think not just about what you can do but how.
I don't really see how this is an issue either, as the Artificer can attune to more magic items so even if you're wading through piles of magic items everywhere you go, you still have more options in which ones you use (and can use more than anyone else). While infusions can be diminished if you keep finding items that do the same but better, there's no guarantee of that; infusions let you get exactly the effect you want, when you want it, so if all your combat needs are met by "proper" items you can just refocus on utility and other boosts.
But I think this is way too much discussion spent on the Artificer, this thread's supposed to be about Warlock; literally all I said is I don't want Warlock to be forced into the Arcane half-caster space that Artificer should (or inevitably will) be in.
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WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Not really, no.
"Hey gang, welcome to session 0. In this world there are no artificers, so you can't use that class."
"Oh, OK, I'll play something else then."
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have a hard time understanding the logic in a setting that bans the artificer because they channel minor magical effects through items but allows a guy who is born so magical they naturally cast spells of the highest power. I mean sure you can come up with a reason for it, but you could just as easily ban wizards, sorcerers, warlocks etc as being too high magic.
To the bolded point, I think it could be interesting if the warlock invocations around Hex should build around a melee Warlock, and Eldritch Blast invocations build around ranged Warlocks, like now. So you have two class features that you can customize to fit the type of play style you want. Hex would still have some advantages to combo with EB but could offer some powerful gish options as well.
Not sure I like that. Hex does not really seem melee focused to me, either mechanically or thematically. Yeah they could change it enough to make is so, but hexing people seems a pretty ranged/melee neutral concept.
I do think they should have built the class more around hex than eldritch blast as that is a more neutral delivery system, and if they are trying to emphasize gish as a option, then core features should be more neutral. So if like repelling blast was more repelling curse, and hexed victims are shoved by any attack from the warlock, or make it more teamwork like and shoved once per turn by any attack so the party gets shoves in as well. Maybe some kind of enhancement for when the warlock is the one landing the low. The core of hex could be some low curse effect like the disadvantage to attributes and maybe agonizing blast and have it scale as you level, maybe level 5 it applies to all attributes, level 10 it adds 1d6 per attack from the warlock, level 15 it applies disadvantage on first attack from the enemy etc. .
I dunno about making hex melee specific, butI'd definitely like invocations that complement it in a melee build. Relentless Hex is the one I've mentioned already, and would like to see becoming part of the standard kit, but with the bonus action crunch fixed (i.e- let the teleport be used when you cast it or choose a new target). Being able to close faster is a big benefit to any melee character.Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
"Alternative play styles"?
If I catch the implication you're putting forward, I think that's easily handled by including The Celestial Patron in the PHB (and using Joan of Arc + St. Catherine as an example), while possibly putting The Fiend and The Great Old One Patrons into the "alternative play styles" book you're suggesting.
I really like the concept of Hex becoming the common central warlock feature that can be modified by Invocations and Subclass Features, and it's something I've been thinking about for a bit. With my Warlock player, these are the ideas we're playtesting:
This still allows for varied playstyles (blaster, familiar, melee, etc.) but encourages customisation of the warlock and actual useful competition with Mystic Arcanum amongst the Invocations.
I am talking about the 2014 warlocks short rest mechanic. It is something a lot of people like but they are moving away from that in an attempt to homogenize all styles of play in that regard. I don't think its a good idea as people who liked it now have no alternatives. But instead of giving up on it I'd rather they just punt it to a supplement where classes that play different might be more welcome.
I don't think it it lacks identity. I think the problem is that it /changes/ identity. Warlock fans (such as myself) like the identity of the short-rest pact caster that played more like an archer. There's nothing wrong with liking that. But, it looks like the short rest for many or most classes is going away. People need to accept that. If the short rest character is not going to be a thing, really what they have provided isn't bad.
Making it a half caster if you're getting rid of that short rest identity makes a ton of sense.
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@MyDudeicus & Haravikk,
I should have been more specific, and worded it better, but I was on my phone then and didn't have much time. I should have said I think it would be interesting that they could, not should, build around Hex and melee. And not exclusively melee either. I think Hex should have options for both melee and range builds.
But along with Relentless Hex and Maddening Hex there could be invocation options that would be beneficial for melee builds. Cause the Frightened condition or give disadvantage to the hexed creatures attack rolls if attacking someone other than you, the new Dazed condition if you are within 5 feet of it (with a save possibly to avoid the condition), other debuffs, or buffs for you against them. Basically, give more invocation options to Hex like there are for EB, some being beneficial to melee. Maybe even some that give advantages to Chain's Pact Familiar like giving the bonus Hex damage to the familiar's Eldritch Strike
I just think if they are giving both EB and Hex to the Warlock at level 1, they should build on them with invocations more.
I don't think they are looking for classes that play different, especially with the short rest mechanic. Play differently in different ways, maybe. But the Short Rest core class feature's train has left the station and not coming back. Not saying they want all play styles to be the same but they just don't want to base a core class mechanic on the short rest mechanic. I'm good if they decide to give back Pact Magic but make it Long Rest recharge. But things will have to be adjusted to keep the power balance. I think there is still a way for Warlock to play differently, but not with SR Pact Magic.
I think it's why they made Mystic Arcanum invocations. In the pre-survey video they talked about this. So you can't have more spells via half casting, more MA as a class feature, same or more invocations as 2014, and EB unchanged. With more spell slots (half casting) they could have kept MA as class features, even if they added 3rd-5th level spell options, but you would probably only get 4 invocations instead of 8 (2014) or 9 (UA) if they did.
I will like to see the next iteration of the Warlock in future UA's and see where they go with it.
Actually I think that's my bad, reading it back what I quoted wasn't really suggesting melee specific I just read it that way for some reason. I think it's a good option, though I actually really like the idea of hex being the core warlock spell, with invocations enabling you to tailor it for control/melee/ranged etc.
But really what I want is for eldritch blast to be one of several cantrip options I can built around, rather than being the warlock cantrip as it has been before, as I've just always found that a bit boring, especially when you're playing a heavily themed warlock where something elemental, or toll the dead etc. are much more flavourful but can't really compete with the raw damage of Agonizing Blast.
This is a lot like what I'd love to see; instead of a second target for hex though I'd maybe just make it possible to transfer the hex without the original target being reduced to 0 hit-points, or make that an invocation?
That said, I could definitely see something like an "Infectious Hex" invocation that causes the hex effects to apply to not only your target, but also anything near to them (10 feet?), basically forcing the target to isolate themselves to avoid weakening its allies? Would also open up some interesting possibilities, for example if you Infectious Hexed an enemy that is then charmed so it can be forced to actually seek to maximise its hex aura for you.
5th-level might be too early for it to lose concentration; it might make more sense to have it scale, e.g- advantage on saving throws, auto-succeed on saving throws, then no concentration at all? It's tricky though, as the stronger hex can get, the more powerful eliminating concentration will become as it could enable some broken self-combos. For example, with your Powerful Hex suggestions + any persistent spell that requires repeated saving throws to end, you could be forcing disadvantage to every single one making it practically impossible for a target to break.
I could also see Lifedrinker becoming a hex invocation, e.g- if you're within 10 feet of a target when it takes damage from your hex it takes an extra d6 damage, and you can pick one of the hex d6's and regain that many hit-points. While this would still be usable by blasters willing to close the distance to top themselves up, it's more appropriate for a melee build who expects to be taking damage (and usually be in range). The healing still wouldn't be huge, but it'd be a lot more reliable (more d6's, so more chances at a 5 or 6).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Some interesting ideas! Yeah wasn't really sure about the 11th level improvement.
For Hex, by 5th level you've just gained access to 2nd level spells and your first 3rd level through Mystic Arcanum. From this point on, concentration makes Hex compete (unfavorably) with more powerful spells. Goes against the whole concept of making Hex a core feature if the class design actively discourages using it. If Hunter's Mark can have it concentration-free from level 1 (and scale with number of attacks), Hex will be fine at 5th.
With Lifedrinker (and Favour of the Chain Master and Gift of the Protector), I think they should be automatic upgrades for the cantrips at level 9. That, or there needs to be more options for Pact Boon Invocations.
For some reason I keep forgetting hunter's mark is concentration free in the Expert playtest, though I don't think we know at this point if it's going to stay that way?
Getting rid of concentration early makes the balancing of a "build your own hex" setup tricky, but I guess if we assume Warlock stays as a half-caster, or some other half-caster-like scaling, then hex upgrades are competing with everything else you might take, like mystic arcanums etc. so it being potentially quite powerful isn't necessarily a major problem, as the stronger you make it, the less you're gaining elsewhere?
That said even if you only take two or three mystic arcanums, under the current wording you could still make these the highest possible levels available (so at 17th-level you could have three arcanums, one each of 7th-, 8th- and 9th-level). Maybe that invocation might need to change such that you can only take up to a level higher than you can currently take, so to get 9th-level picks you need to specifically invest in getting there?
It would still be possible to get to that level and also have boosted hex, but you probably wouldn't have much else, so that would make it one of several possible builds alongside doubling down on melee + hex, with fewer/earlier mystic arcanums only etc.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
So I made a post a few weeks back on making both Hex and Invocations a more central and more impactful element of the Warlock class design, which seems to be what many of you are talking about now. I've taken some time since then to flush the idea out and develop a number of Hex based Invocations. Take a look, think you all might enjoy :
https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/18tnysYlOPOFhb1vtEkkybnPJSQOVozyZw363yznMsUQ/mobilebasic
In the "distant past" phrases like "alternate play styles" was practically a euphemism for having evil player characters. I see the point you're making now.
That said... I think the ship has sailed on the short-rest-focused-warlock. And I don't think that would change the release date of the Artificer. Though, I would agree that the Artificer should be in the OneD&D PHB. All official base starting classes should be in the PHB, IMO.
Maybe, it kind of depends on if game design is why they are making the change as opposed to something like VTT compatibility. If its VTT stuff their hands may be tied. If its based on a game design choice, then well this is a play test. That is one of the things this should be helping determine. If they aren't going to listen to other voices and be willing to walk back changes they thought were good why even have the play test.
We have done one playtest with each pact now, all at level 7. And the results have not been good in our opinion. The feel of the class is all but gone. Maybe voices like my groups are the vast minority, but if its not they may start to rethink their design.
I'm not opposed to Artificer minus Replicate Item being in core, but again, that seems to not be what they've gone with.
It will be back. It's not like being non-core now has made the Artificer obscure or anything.