If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
At level 5, the drop in hex-power isn't so bad because odds are decent you'd only hit one of the Eldritch Blasts anyways, in which case hex would add the same amount of damage. It's definitely a nerf, but not as much as you seem to think. Level 11 is even less of a nerf, since the odds of hitting all three Eldritch Blasts to get the 3d6 are pretty low, and there's always a chance that you only hit one Eldritch Blast, in which case 1D&D hex does more damage. I don't know why you think that EB doesn't get 4 rays at 17th anymore, the spell very clearly says that it does. Anyways, it should probably be 18th because that's when Fighters get 4 attacks, but whatever.
The problem here is the nerf to Lock not hex. Before the benefit of Hex was that you could keep concentration up through a short rest and effectively have a "free spell slot" so long as you didnt cast another concentration spell. Which some builds could do pretty good with.
Now it costs you one of your very limited higher level slots to keep it relevant and it doesnt compete with those slots at all.
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.
You don't have to imagine it man. You can just look at 5e eldritch blast + hex as a 6 year case study where it isn't an issue, and has never been an issue.
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.
You don't have to imagine it man. You can just look at 5e eldritch blast + hex as a 6 year case study where it isn't an issue, and has never been an issue.
Except the 10 year case study of people very rarely going past level 2 warlock as is. If it wasn't an issue they wouldn't be doing this. It is a 10 year long known issue adding to the martial caster divide. Add EVEN FURTHER with the changes to Sharp shooter.
It is a BIGGER issue here because of the OTHER changes to warlock make it even LESS appealing to continue besides EB, AND the ability to use ANY casting stat instead of just charisma.
The 10 year case study does not support the idea that this isnt an issue.
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.
You don't have to imagine it man. You can just look at 5e eldritch blast + hex as a 6 year case study where it isn't an issue, and has never been an issue.
Except the 10 year case study of people very rarely going past level 2 warlock as is. If it wasn't an issue they wouldn't be doing this. It is a 10 year long known issue adding to the martial caster divide. Add EVEN FURTHER with the changes to Sharp shooter.
It is a BIGGER issue here because of the OTHER changes to warlock make it even LESS appealing to continue besides EB, AND the ability to use ANY casting stat instead of just charisma.
The 10 year case study does not support the idea that this isnt an issue.
And the cause of this is the weakness of the warlock class, not the strength of EB
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.
You don't have to imagine it man. You can just look at 5e eldritch blast + hex as a 6 year case study where it isn't an issue, and has never been an issue.
Except the 10 year case study of people very rarely going past level 2 warlock as is. If it wasn't an issue they wouldn't be doing this. It is a 10 year long known issue adding to the martial caster divide. Add EVEN FURTHER with the changes to Sharp shooter.
It is a BIGGER issue here because of the OTHER changes to warlock make it even LESS appealing to continue besides EB, AND the ability to use ANY casting stat instead of just charisma.
The 10 year case study does not support the idea that this isnt an issue.
And the cause of this is the weakness of the warlock class, not the strength of EB
Which they didnt fix the overall strength of warlock and additional things happened. I will cover all the issues and the fixes that one dnd is bringing when I am home and have time to type it out.
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.
You don't have to imagine it man. You can just look at 5e eldritch blast + hex as a 6 year case study where it isn't an issue, and has never been an issue.
Except the 10 year case study of people very rarely going past level 2 warlock as is. If it wasn't an issue they wouldn't be doing this. It is a 10 year long known issue adding to the martial caster divide. Add EVEN FURTHER with the changes to Sharp shooter.
It is a BIGGER issue here because of the OTHER changes to warlock make it even LESS appealing to continue besides EB, AND the ability to use ANY casting stat instead of just charisma.
The 10 year case study does not support the idea that this isnt an issue.
And the cause of this is the weakness of the warlock class, not the strength of EB
Hmmm I’m pretty sure people dipped to gain the strength of eldritch blast or they would have just went mono whatever class they started. If Warlock is weak and Other fullcasters are better why are people dipping warlock. It’s not for backstory.
Warlock was weak, but it (namely Hexblade) had certain synergistic features that worked well with other classes. The biggest issue with warlock was the painful short rest spell slot progression. If they gave you a third slot mid T2 and a fourth slot Mid T3, it would have felt a lot better. I know they are trying top make Warlock a halfcaster to resolve that, but I don't think that is the solution. Rather, improving the short rest slots would have been the better solution.
Ok so as I said I am going to cover a couple other changes that are changing how problematic EB is on non-warlocks.
First the change to Sharp Shooter and Crossbow Expert. Before a big part of the reason that EB + AB + Hex wasn't an issue was because Martial characters could still get higher damage thanks to the -5 +10 mechanic on sharpshooter combined with the hand crossbow thing from Crossbow expert and finding ways to get advantage. They did away completely with this meaning that EB+AB already rivals the best ranged damage any martial can do. The big reason for this change seems to be to prop up melee attacks and melee damage dealing as being clearly superior for damage than ranged. This is because the inherent advantage of range is the fact that it is range. Of course this means that EB+AB+Hex goes from "not much of an issue" because martial characters can surpass it, to a big problem if every caster is allowed it because martials CAN'T surpass it now. This would mean the best ranged attacker would be any caster with EB+AB and they would still have all the utility of a full caster.
Add to this that before it was CHA, which meant that the only people who could really benefit from it were the Sorcerer, who was particularly weak by comparison to the Wizard and I would argue the druid, the Paladin, who you still needed strength to multi-class into anyway, and the Bard who rarely wanted to delay his spells that much or had better ways to get martial damage. Now it is available to the Cleric who does not traditionally have a powerful ranged option, the Druid who purposefully does not have strong attack cantrips, the wizard who was already the strongest class, and weirdly enough, the Monk.
Finally, while it was rare to see a Warlock above level 2, it was not completely unheard of. If they were to move forward with this warlock, but revert the EB change you would literally never see a Warlock past 2 again. At that point it would be better to just make EB+AB a feat rather than a class. In addition, you would have to completely redesign all martial characters AGAIN. This is because to keep up with casters their ranged attacks would have to return to being stronger than EB+AB, IN ADDITION to make their melee attacks worthwhile it would have to again be even stronger still, which would mean doing, on average of 40+ damage a round in melee as early as level 5. This is untenable as it would force creature health to balloon out of control to compensate.
You have to understand how these things are connected to one another. EB was not the only change, and it is being treated as a martial attack because it is. The fighter doesn't give you 4 attacks on any character for a 2 level dip because they recognize that it would mean no one would play a fighter. Similarly they aren't going to let EB be decoupled from warlock again because they are not going to let a 2 level dip completely invalidate every ranged combat martial and give every caster the best ranged attack in the game with little to no sacrifice.
An archery based Fighter, Longbow: 1d8+5 damage with a +2 better chance to hit with archery. That is it for damage, can apply different effects based on mastery up to 4 attacks. Average damage per attack (70% chance to hit) 6.65. No way to really add any more damage anymore without subclass features. Grand total =26.6, Hand-cross bow does 5.95 per attack average for a total of 29.75, if anyone was wondering, but it loses access to push, and either takes a bonus action or must take nick.
Warlock: 1d10+5 Damage, can have multiple riders on EB at the same time with the same hit rather than only one at a time like a fighter. Average damage per attack (60% chance to hit) 6.3. Can add further damage through hex a first level casts adds 3.5 damage 60% of the time with 1 attack 84% with 2 attacks, 98% with 3 attacks and 98.9% with 4 attacks for grand total 28.66.
For Paladin, the main reason to dip warlock is for SAD, which is now included in the base warlock class.
Also, I am not overselling on getting spells on time. You also missed out on some key 5th level spells such as Wall of Stone, War of Force (you can pick it up as either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Bard via Magical Secrets), Synaptic Static, Seeming, Bigby's Hand. 5th level has a plethora of choices that are quite significant; it is not just Hold Monster, which I don't consider reliable. I've done multiple 1-20 campaigns and you really end up feeling that delay in spell progression.
I also never stated it was something characters must get, definitely not to the point where the character breaks down without it, but that it is a significant trade off and it is very much felt (especially at the tier break points). If anything, I think you are underselling the severity of the trade offs for multiclassing.
I still disagree with this, those spells can be nice, but first off you're a sorcerer, so your ability to select all those spells is very limited. Synaptic Static is psychic damage, and the lowered attack rolls is nice but overall a spell like Faerie Fire can be so much more impactful on a combat and it's only 1st level. Wall of Stone and Wall of Force, good battlefield control spells, but again, sorcerer your spell selection is limited and Druid is by far a better choice if you're looking at battlefield/terrain control; they have been doing that far earlier than Sorcerer and better than Sorcerer; it's also concentration, which makes most of the 4th level spells now a bit pointless since most the good 4th level spells are concentration.
Seeming can be good in RP but it's not the biggest game changer, it is also a cost to Sorcerer, given the number of known spells. It can be useful to take later than 5th level, when you're in 6th or 7th level but you usually want a more meaningful combat spell when at that level.
Hold Monster isn't reliable, but then it shouldn't be, it can in many cases be a literal encounter ender, if the BBEG gets paralysed it is either useless or getting pummelled so fast it ain't seeing another round. I do tend to prefer more reliable and consistent spells, but the risk/reward of spells like hold monster can't be ignored either. Bigby's is only from an optional class feature, it obviously has some major utility;. It can be worthwhile to take if you are using Tasha's.
I am not underselling the trade-offs, the trade-offs aren't as big as you're making out. The reliability and power that a sorcerer can get from 2 levels of warlock is often worth the dip and many sorcerers do make that dip. For sorcerer the trade-off is about even, given that Sorcerer is already a very over-powered class however that doesn't mean that what sorcerer is getting from those two levels isn't over-powered, full EB+Hex, two invocations (likely agonizing blast and Eldritch Mind), 2 pact magic slots that recharge on short rest (so a bit more fuel for font of magic, or usable to get extra casts of spells like shield and absorb elements). and 3 1st level spells, Hex being obvious, Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hagar being a likely second (AoA being the generally better choice) and Hellish Rebuke being another interesting choice.
I like some of the 1DND changes, like the customizable backgrounds and level 1 feats.
I'm almost okay with half casting Warlocks, providing they can properly integrate the pseudo-full casting. Invocations are a cool concept, some are very good, but most are not.
However, when it boils down to it, why would I give up a level 12 Hexblade capable of rolling almost 150 damage a round, for a regular bladelock that barely reaches a third of that?
Even if Hexblade ends up getting some new stuff it won't achieve the heights it used to.
However, when it boils down to it, why would I give up a level 12 Hexblade capable of rolling almost 150 damage a round, for a regular bladelock that barely reaches a third of that?
Even if Hexblade ends up getting some new stuff it won't achieve the heights it used to.
Given that Paladin has had it's DPR nerfed, I think what Pact of the Blade has right now is quiet in-line. If you look at it, Pact of the Blade gives most of what Paladin gives, you're only missing out on smites and smite spells; but Hex does on the most part make up for that lack of Smite damage, and Warlock will still have access to higher levelled spells via Mystic Arcanum. So I do not know what form a new Hexblade would take.
I like some of the 1DND changes, like the customizable backgrounds and level 1 feats.
I'm almost okay with half casting Warlocks, providing they can properly integrate the pseudo-full casting. Invocations are a cool concept, some are very good, but most are not.
However, when it boils down to it, why would I give up a level 12 Hexblade capable of rolling almost 150 damage a round, for a regular bladelock that barely reaches a third of that?
Even if Hexblade ends up getting some new stuff it won't achieve the heights it used to.
It’s no supposed to. Your Hexblade is over tuned and dealing far too much reliable damage per turn.
I like some of the 1DND changes, like the customizable backgrounds and level 1 feats.
I'm almost okay with half casting Warlocks, providing they can properly integrate the pseudo-full casting. Invocations are a cool concept, some are very good, but most are not.
However, when it boils down to it, why would I give up a level 12 Hexblade capable of rolling almost 150 damage a round, for a regular bladelock that barely reaches a third of that?
Even if Hexblade ends up getting some new stuff it won't achieve the heights it used to.
It’s no supposed to. Your Hexblade is over tuned and dealing far too much reliable damage per turn.
Definitely true, I am imagining it's done via using a 1d10 Polearm, polearm master. Hex, Hexblade's Curse, 1 smite and life drinker. Getting up to three attacks a turn, 2d10+1d4+5*3+5*3+3d6+4*3+6d8. If you ignore the accuracy of an attack rolls, you're talking I believe, 103 damage... for level 12, if you have a +2 polearm, an extra 6 damage.
That is still missing another 41 damage, I can only imagine the additional 41 damage comes from the Opportunity Attack with another Eldritch Smite on top. But you're burnt out after this 1 round display, need a short rest before you can repeat. However, even without the Eldritch Smites, it's a lot of damage. 66 DPR, or 54 without Hexblade's Curse. Hexblade+Pact Blade is by far the strongest Warlock build... if ultra specialized it just gets insane and the passive DPR is enough to beat half of the dedicated martial characters.
I like some of the 1DND changes, like the customizable backgrounds and level 1 feats.
I'm almost okay with half casting Warlocks, providing they can properly integrate the pseudo-full casting. Invocations are a cool concept, some are very good, but most are not.
However, when it boils down to it, why would I give up a level 12 Hexblade capable of rolling almost 150 damage a round, for a regular bladelock that barely reaches a third of that?
Even if Hexblade ends up getting some new stuff it won't achieve the heights it used to.
It’s no supposed to. Your Hexblade is over tuned and dealing far too much reliable damage per turn.
Definitely true, I am imagining it's done via using a 1d10 Polearm, polearm master. Hex, Hexblade's Curse, 1 smite and life drinker. Getting up to three attacks a turn, 2d10+1d4+5*3+5*3+3d6+4*3+6d8. If you ignore the accuracy of an attack rolls, you're talking I believe, 103 damage... for level 12, if you have a +2 polearm, an extra 6 damage.
That is still missing another 41 damage, I can only imagine the additional 41 damage comes from the Opportunity Attack with another Eldritch Smite on top. But you're burnt out after this 1 round display, need a short rest before you can repeat. However, even without the Eldritch Smites, it's a lot of damage. 66 DPR, or 54 without Hexblade's Curse. Hexblade+Pact Blade is by far the strongest Warlock build... if ultra specialized it just gets insane and the passive DPR is enough to beat half of the dedicated martial characters.
If their party is helping with any damage at all they drop most CR 12 monsters round one. 150 damage drops so many alone. If I’m the DM and my CR12 130hp intelligent monster takes over 100 points of damage from one player before its turn, it runs away. I also stop having one big bad and start dealing with the slower multi enemy combat.
I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
The more I look at it it does seem that the cantrip scaling with character level was quite short sighted and very design asymmetrical with the rest of the multiclass ruling. The only thing I can see for it now is to not completely ruin a characters resourceless output. I can only image the cluckster if extra attack worked in a similar manner.
For Paladin, the main reason to dip warlock is for SAD, which is now included in the base warlock class.
Also, I am not overselling on getting spells on time. You also missed out on some key 5th level spells such as Wall of Stone, War of Force (you can pick it up as either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Bard via Magical Secrets), Synaptic Static, Seeming, Bigby's Hand. 5th level has a plethora of choices that are quite significant; it is not just Hold Monster, which I don't consider reliable. I've done multiple 1-20 campaigns and you really end up feeling that delay in spell progression.
I also never stated it was something characters must get, definitely not to the point where the character breaks down without it, but that it is a significant trade off and it is very much felt (especially at the tier break points). If anything, I think you are underselling the severity of the trade offs for multiclassing.
I still disagree with this, those spells can be nice, but first off you're a sorcerer, so your ability to select all those spells is very limited. Synaptic Static is psychic damage, and the lowered attack rolls is nice but overall a spell like Faerie Fire can be so much more impactful on a combat and it's only 1st level. Wall of Stone and Wall of Force, good battlefield control spells, but again, sorcerer your spell selection is limited and Druid is by far a better choice if you're looking at battlefield/terrain control; they have been doing that far earlier than Sorcerer and better than Sorcerer; it's also concentration, which makes most of the 4th level spells now a bit pointless since most the good 4th level spells are concentration.
Seeming can be good in RP but it's not the biggest game changer, it is also a cost to Sorcerer, given the number of known spells. It can be useful to take later than 5th level, when you're in 6th or 7th level but you usually want a more meaningful combat spell when at that level.
Hold Monster isn't reliable, but then it shouldn't be, it can in many cases be a literal encounter ender, if the BBEG gets paralysed it is either useless or getting pummelled so fast it ain't seeing another round. I do tend to prefer more reliable and consistent spells, but the risk/reward of spells like hold monster can't be ignored either. Bigby's is only from an optional class feature, it obviously has some major utility;. It can be worthwhile to take if you are using Tasha's.
I am not underselling the trade-offs, the trade-offs aren't as big as you're making out. The reliability and power that a sorcerer can get from 2 levels of warlock is often worth the dip and many sorcerers do make that dip. For sorcerer the trade-off is about even, given that Sorcerer is already a very over-powered class however that doesn't mean that what sorcerer is getting from those two levels isn't over-powered, full EB+Hex, two invocations (likely agonizing blast and Eldritch Mind), 2 pact magic slots that recharge on short rest (so a bit more fuel for font of magic, or usable to get extra casts of spells like shield and absorb elements). and 3 1st level spells, Hex being obvious, Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hagar being a likely second (AoA being the generally better choice) and Hellish Rebuke being another interesting choice.
Synaptic Static also hits ability checks and concentration checks. If going up against other casters, that can be incredibly useful as it lowers their chance of a successful counterspell and concentration checks. Psychic damage is also rarely resisted. I would take spells like Wall of Force over Hold Monster any day, as you said, Hold Monster is quite unreliable, as it should be. Often times, I would not even get a good chance to use it as the BBEG can just Legendary Resistance it. Spells like Wall of Force not offering a save can control the spell immediately.
From my experience from multiple 1-20 campaigns, on time spell progression has a huge benefit and not something to take lightly. The benefit from warlock has to match the benefit of on time spell progression. Is Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast good? Yes, it is a good single target blasting option. However, that is all it is, single target blasting. It isn't something game breaking that it surpasses on time spell progression. I still believe you are undervaluing on time spell progression; the trade off is quite fair from how I see it.
Also, I would not call sorcerer overpowered, at least not the 5E version anyway. I always felt sorcerer to be on the lower end of the caster power level spectrum due to their limited spell selection.
For Paladin, the main reason to dip warlock is for SAD, which is now included in the base warlock class.
Also, I am not overselling on getting spells on time. You also missed out on some key 5th level spells such as Wall of Stone, War of Force (you can pick it up as either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Bard via Magical Secrets), Synaptic Static, Seeming, Bigby's Hand. 5th level has a plethora of choices that are quite significant; it is not just Hold Monster, which I don't consider reliable. I've done multiple 1-20 campaigns and you really end up feeling that delay in spell progression.
I also never stated it was something characters must get, definitely not to the point where the character breaks down without it, but that it is a significant trade off and it is very much felt (especially at the tier break points). If anything, I think you are underselling the severity of the trade offs for multiclassing.
I still disagree with this, those spells can be nice, but first off you're a sorcerer, so your ability to select all those spells is very limited. Synaptic Static is psychic damage, and the lowered attack rolls is nice but overall a spell like Faerie Fire can be so much more impactful on a combat and it's only 1st level. Wall of Stone and Wall of Force, good battlefield control spells, but again, sorcerer your spell selection is limited and Druid is by far a better choice if you're looking at battlefield/terrain control; they have been doing that far earlier than Sorcerer and better than Sorcerer; it's also concentration, which makes most of the 4th level spells now a bit pointless since most the good 4th level spells are concentration.
Seeming can be good in RP but it's not the biggest game changer, it is also a cost to Sorcerer, given the number of known spells. It can be useful to take later than 5th level, when you're in 6th or 7th level but you usually want a more meaningful combat spell when at that level.
Hold Monster isn't reliable, but then it shouldn't be, it can in many cases be a literal encounter ender, if the BBEG gets paralysed it is either useless or getting pummelled so fast it ain't seeing another round. I do tend to prefer more reliable and consistent spells, but the risk/reward of spells like hold monster can't be ignored either. Bigby's is only from an optional class feature, it obviously has some major utility;. It can be worthwhile to take if you are using Tasha's.
I am not underselling the trade-offs, the trade-offs aren't as big as you're making out. The reliability and power that a sorcerer can get from 2 levels of warlock is often worth the dip and many sorcerers do make that dip. For sorcerer the trade-off is about even, given that Sorcerer is already a very over-powered class however that doesn't mean that what sorcerer is getting from those two levels isn't over-powered, full EB+Hex, two invocations (likely agonizing blast and Eldritch Mind), 2 pact magic slots that recharge on short rest (so a bit more fuel for font of magic, or usable to get extra casts of spells like shield and absorb elements). and 3 1st level spells, Hex being obvious, Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hagar being a likely second (AoA being the generally better choice) and Hellish Rebuke being another interesting choice.
Synaptic Static also hits ability checks and concentration checks. If going up against other casters, that can be incredibly useful as it lowers their chance of a successful counterspell and concentration checks. Psychic damage is also rarely resisted. I would take spells like Wall of Force over Hold Monster any day, as you said, Hold Monster is quite unreliable, as it should be. Often times, I would not even get a good chance to use it as the BBEG can just Legendary Resistance it. Spells like Wall of Force not offering a save can control the spell immediately.
From my experience from multiple 1-20 campaigns, on time spell progression has a huge benefit and not something to take lightly. The benefit from warlock has to match the benefit of on time spell progression. Is Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast good? Yes, it is a good single target blasting option. However, that is all it is, single target blasting. It isn't something game breaking that it surpasses on time spell progression. I still believe you are undervaluing on time spell progression; the trade off is quite fair from how I see it.
Also, I would not call sorcerer overpowered, at least not the 5E version anyway. I always felt sorcerer to be on the lower end of the caster power level spectrum due to their limited spell selection.
It is the best single target cantrip in the game when combined with AB. It gets even more powerful combined with 5e version of hex. Their is a reason so many people were dipping warlock it at wasn’t all Hexblade. There was a whole lot of Hexblade too. In 5e the EB+AB+Hex combo from a two level dip made the sorcerer far more flexible in spell selection. They no longer had to worry about good damage and could select more versatile spells. Also if the EB+AB+Hex isn’t that powerful why are so many people arguing to bring it back for multiclass scaling. It works fine for the the new Warlock. My only argument is they should have the 5e version of Hex, and an invocation that makes hex at will
For Paladin, the main reason to dip warlock is for SAD, which is now included in the base warlock class.
Also, I am not overselling on getting spells on time. You also missed out on some key 5th level spells such as Wall of Stone, War of Force (you can pick it up as either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Bard via Magical Secrets), Synaptic Static, Seeming, Bigby's Hand. 5th level has a plethora of choices that are quite significant; it is not just Hold Monster, which I don't consider reliable. I've done multiple 1-20 campaigns and you really end up feeling that delay in spell progression.
I also never stated it was something characters must get, definitely not to the point where the character breaks down without it, but that it is a significant trade off and it is very much felt (especially at the tier break points). If anything, I think you are underselling the severity of the trade offs for multiclassing.
I still disagree with this, those spells can be nice, but first off you're a sorcerer, so your ability to select all those spells is very limited. Synaptic Static is psychic damage, and the lowered attack rolls is nice but overall a spell like Faerie Fire can be so much more impactful on a combat and it's only 1st level. Wall of Stone and Wall of Force, good battlefield control spells, but again, sorcerer your spell selection is limited and Druid is by far a better choice if you're looking at battlefield/terrain control; they have been doing that far earlier than Sorcerer and better than Sorcerer; it's also concentration, which makes most of the 4th level spells now a bit pointless since most the good 4th level spells are concentration.
Seeming can be good in RP but it's not the biggest game changer, it is also a cost to Sorcerer, given the number of known spells. It can be useful to take later than 5th level, when you're in 6th or 7th level but you usually want a more meaningful combat spell when at that level.
Hold Monster isn't reliable, but then it shouldn't be, it can in many cases be a literal encounter ender, if the BBEG gets paralysed it is either useless or getting pummelled so fast it ain't seeing another round. I do tend to prefer more reliable and consistent spells, but the risk/reward of spells like hold monster can't be ignored either. Bigby's is only from an optional class feature, it obviously has some major utility;. It can be worthwhile to take if you are using Tasha's.
I am not underselling the trade-offs, the trade-offs aren't as big as you're making out. The reliability and power that a sorcerer can get from 2 levels of warlock is often worth the dip and many sorcerers do make that dip. For sorcerer the trade-off is about even, given that Sorcerer is already a very over-powered class however that doesn't mean that what sorcerer is getting from those two levels isn't over-powered, full EB+Hex, two invocations (likely agonizing blast and Eldritch Mind), 2 pact magic slots that recharge on short rest (so a bit more fuel for font of magic, or usable to get extra casts of spells like shield and absorb elements). and 3 1st level spells, Hex being obvious, Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hagar being a likely second (AoA being the generally better choice) and Hellish Rebuke being another interesting choice.
Synaptic Static also hits ability checks and concentration checks. If going up against other casters, that can be incredibly useful as it lowers their chance of a successful counterspell and concentration checks. Psychic damage is also rarely resisted. I would take spells like Wall of Force over Hold Monster any day, as you said, Hold Monster is quite unreliable, as it should be. Often times, I would not even get a good chance to use it as the BBEG can just Legendary Resistance it. Spells like Wall of Force not offering a save can control the spell immediately.
From my experience from multiple 1-20 campaigns, on time spell progression has a huge benefit and not something to take lightly. The benefit from warlock has to match the benefit of on time spell progression. Is Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast good? Yes, it is a good single target blasting option. However, that is all it is, single target blasting. It isn't something game breaking that it surpasses on time spell progression. I still believe you are undervaluing on time spell progression; the trade off is quite fair from how I see it.
Also, I would not call sorcerer overpowered, at least not the 5E version anyway. I always felt sorcerer to be on the lower end of the caster power level spectrum due to their limited spell selection.
It is the best single target cantrip in the game when combined with AB. It gets even more powerful combined with 5e version of hex. Their is a reason so many people were dipping warlock it at wasn’t all Hexblade. There was a whole lot of Hexblade too. In 5e the EB+AB+Hex combo from a two level dip made the sorcerer far more flexible in spell selection. They no longer had to worry about good damage and could select more versatile spells. Also if the EB+AB+Hex isn’t that powerful why are so many people arguing to bring it back for multiclass scaling. It works fine for the the new Warlock. My only argument is they should have the 5e version of Hex, and an invocation that makes hex at will
While it is not as powerful as some people are making it out to be, it was still a strong option for single target damage; being strong isn't the same thing as being game breaking. It still feel well within the power curve of 5E. Also, hex in 5E falls off really quickly, as it uses your concentration.
I really would have liked to see them work more with the short rest slots and making them actually feel good to use and progress in rather than limit EB to warlock level scaling. Making Warlock a half-caster and making EB use warlock level scaling as an incentive for more warlock levels feels lazy to me and doesn't really make warlock any more enticing.
Personally, I agree with the point made previously that just because it’s strong doesn’t make it game breaking. They wanted to incentivize people to not just dip warlock clearly. I feel like they succeeded well with that, outside of Eldritch Blast only scaling with warlock level. They shouldn’t have done that because 1) it wasn’t actually game breaking, merely strong, 2) it was popular, and 3) I’d have at least liked a choice whether to dip or not. To the third point: now, I have more of a serious choice to not just dip warlock because of the amazing mechanics of the new class. I would still have at least liked the choice.
Moreover, I do agree with the other point made previously: that 5e was a case study in it working and not being an issue. People using the same builds repeatedly to me isn’t an issue. It’s an issue if the other builds or classes aren’t as interesting or fun, to be sure. But that’s less a comment on Eldritch Blast and more of a comment on the other classes. Now, for fighter, sorcerer, and monoclassed warlock, they’ve successfully done that (even with EB scaling solely with warlock level too.). Hence why I would say it should’ve remained the same in terms of scaling-it was just unnecessary. This is an extension of a larger and sloppier issue however: that they rolled spell like features and class specific cantrips into one thing. It’s a sloppy fix and just terrible.
Regarding Hex: It sucked in 5e past a certain point. They nerfed it even more, further disincentivizing using the spell. On top of that, they then gave it for free. Like honestly I just stopped taking Hex because I never used it really, and if I’m getting another spell for free I’d rather get Hellish Rebuke or Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hadaar for free. I used those way more and across games’ progression. On top of that, Hex Master is so terrible I would rather dip 3 levels of sorcerer or 2 of sorcerer and 1 of fighter just to avoid it. It’s a waste of a feature and it sucks.
Personally, I agree with the point made previously that just because it’s strong doesn’t make it game breaking. They wanted to incentivize people to not just dip warlock clearly. I feel like they succeeded well with that, outside of Eldritch Blast only scaling with warlock level. They shouldn’t have done that because 1) it wasn’t actually game breaking, merely strong, 2) it was popular, and 3) I’d have at least liked a choice whether to dip or not. To the third point: now, I have more of a serious choice to not just dip warlock because of the amazing mechanics of the new class. I would still have at least liked the choice.
Moreover, I do agree with the other point made previously: that 5e was a case study in it working and not being an issue.
People using the same builds repeatedly to me isn’t an issue. It’s an issue if the other builds or classes aren’t as interesting or fun, to be sure. But that’s less a comment on Eldritch Blast and more of a comment on the other classes. Now, for fighter, sorcerer, and monoclassed warlock, they’ve successfully done that.
Regarding Hex: It sucked in 5e past a certain point. They nerfed it even more, further disincentivizing using the spell. On top of that, they then gave it for free. Like honestly I just stopped taking Hex because I never used it really, and if I’m getting another spell for free I’d rather get Hellish Rebuke or Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hadaar for free. I used those way more and across games’ progression. On top of that, Hex Master is so terrible I would rather dip 3 levels of sorcerer or 2 of sorcerer and 1 of fighter just to avoid it. It’s a waste of a feature and it sucks.
What higher level warlock mechanic are you sticking with warlock for?
Mystic Arcanum are just worse higher level slots, which you will get just as fast by multiclassing with a full caster. All of their "features" are invocations. So unless you are talking about a specific high level invocation besides MA if EB can scale with character level you are better 2 level dip and multiclassing and you should never go past 2 with warlock.
That is the problem. It isn't overpowered, but it is certainly game breaking and unhealthy for the game.
The problem here is the nerf to Lock not hex. Before the benefit of Hex was that you could keep concentration up through a short rest and effectively have a "free spell slot" so long as you didnt cast another concentration spell. Which some builds could do pretty good with.
Now it costs you one of your very limited higher level slots to keep it relevant and it doesnt compete with those slots at all.
You don't have to imagine it man. You can just look at 5e eldritch blast + hex as a 6 year case study where it isn't an issue, and has never been an issue.
Except the 10 year case study of people very rarely going past level 2 warlock as is. If it wasn't an issue they wouldn't be doing this. It is a 10 year long known issue adding to the martial caster divide. Add EVEN FURTHER with the changes to Sharp shooter.
It is a BIGGER issue here because of the OTHER changes to warlock make it even LESS appealing to continue besides EB, AND the ability to use ANY casting stat instead of just charisma.
The 10 year case study does not support the idea that this isnt an issue.
And the cause of this is the weakness of the warlock class, not the strength of EB
Which they didnt fix the overall strength of warlock and additional things happened. I will cover all the issues and the fixes that one dnd is bringing when I am home and have time to type it out.
Hmmm I’m pretty sure people dipped to gain the strength of eldritch blast or they would have just went mono whatever class they started. If Warlock is weak and Other fullcasters are better why are people dipping warlock. It’s not for backstory.
Warlock was weak, but it (namely Hexblade) had certain synergistic features that worked well with other classes. The biggest issue with warlock was the painful short rest spell slot progression. If they gave you a third slot mid T2 and a fourth slot Mid T3, it would have felt a lot better. I know they are trying top make Warlock a halfcaster to resolve that, but I don't think that is the solution. Rather, improving the short rest slots would have been the better solution.
Ok so as I said I am going to cover a couple other changes that are changing how problematic EB is on non-warlocks.
First the change to Sharp Shooter and Crossbow Expert. Before a big part of the reason that EB + AB + Hex wasn't an issue was because Martial characters could still get higher damage thanks to the -5 +10 mechanic on sharpshooter combined with the hand crossbow thing from Crossbow expert and finding ways to get advantage. They did away completely with this meaning that EB+AB already rivals the best ranged damage any martial can do. The big reason for this change seems to be to prop up melee attacks and melee damage dealing as being clearly superior for damage than ranged. This is because the inherent advantage of range is the fact that it is range. Of course this means that EB+AB+Hex goes from "not much of an issue" because martial characters can surpass it, to a big problem if every caster is allowed it because martials CAN'T surpass it now. This would mean the best ranged attacker would be any caster with EB+AB and they would still have all the utility of a full caster.
Add to this that before it was CHA, which meant that the only people who could really benefit from it were the Sorcerer, who was particularly weak by comparison to the Wizard and I would argue the druid, the Paladin, who you still needed strength to multi-class into anyway, and the Bard who rarely wanted to delay his spells that much or had better ways to get martial damage. Now it is available to the Cleric who does not traditionally have a powerful ranged option, the Druid who purposefully does not have strong attack cantrips, the wizard who was already the strongest class, and weirdly enough, the Monk.
Finally, while it was rare to see a Warlock above level 2, it was not completely unheard of. If they were to move forward with this warlock, but revert the EB change you would literally never see a Warlock past 2 again. At that point it would be better to just make EB+AB a feat rather than a class. In addition, you would have to completely redesign all martial characters AGAIN. This is because to keep up with casters their ranged attacks would have to return to being stronger than EB+AB, IN ADDITION to make their melee attacks worthwhile it would have to again be even stronger still, which would mean doing, on average of 40+ damage a round in melee as early as level 5. This is untenable as it would force creature health to balloon out of control to compensate.
You have to understand how these things are connected to one another. EB was not the only change, and it is being treated as a martial attack because it is. The fighter doesn't give you 4 attacks on any character for a 2 level dip because they recognize that it would mean no one would play a fighter. Similarly they aren't going to let EB be decoupled from warlock again because they are not going to let a 2 level dip completely invalidate every ranged combat martial and give every caster the best ranged attack in the game with little to no sacrifice.
An archery based Fighter, Longbow: 1d8+5 damage with a +2 better chance to hit with archery. That is it for damage, can apply different effects based on mastery up to 4 attacks. Average damage per attack (70% chance to hit) 6.65. No way to really add any more damage anymore without subclass features. Grand total =26.6, Hand-cross bow does 5.95 per attack average for a total of 29.75, if anyone was wondering, but it loses access to push, and either takes a bonus action or must take nick.
Warlock: 1d10+5 Damage, can have multiple riders on EB at the same time with the same hit rather than only one at a time like a fighter. Average damage per attack (60% chance to hit) 6.3. Can add further damage through hex a first level casts adds 3.5 damage 60% of the time with 1 attack 84% with 2 attacks, 98% with 3 attacks and 98.9% with 4 attacks for grand total 28.66.
I still disagree with this, those spells can be nice, but first off you're a sorcerer, so your ability to select all those spells is very limited. Synaptic Static is psychic damage, and the lowered attack rolls is nice but overall a spell like Faerie Fire can be so much more impactful on a combat and it's only 1st level. Wall of Stone and Wall of Force, good battlefield control spells, but again, sorcerer your spell selection is limited and Druid is by far a better choice if you're looking at battlefield/terrain control; they have been doing that far earlier than Sorcerer and better than Sorcerer; it's also concentration, which makes most of the 4th level spells now a bit pointless since most the good 4th level spells are concentration.
Seeming can be good in RP but it's not the biggest game changer, it is also a cost to Sorcerer, given the number of known spells. It can be useful to take later than 5th level, when you're in 6th or 7th level but you usually want a more meaningful combat spell when at that level.
Hold Monster isn't reliable, but then it shouldn't be, it can in many cases be a literal encounter ender, if the BBEG gets paralysed it is either useless or getting pummelled so fast it ain't seeing another round. I do tend to prefer more reliable and consistent spells, but the risk/reward of spells like hold monster can't be ignored either. Bigby's is only from an optional class feature, it obviously has some major utility;. It can be worthwhile to take if you are using Tasha's.
I am not underselling the trade-offs, the trade-offs aren't as big as you're making out. The reliability and power that a sorcerer can get from 2 levels of warlock is often worth the dip and many sorcerers do make that dip. For sorcerer the trade-off is about even, given that Sorcerer is already a very over-powered class however that doesn't mean that what sorcerer is getting from those two levels isn't over-powered, full EB+Hex, two invocations (likely agonizing blast and Eldritch Mind), 2 pact magic slots that recharge on short rest (so a bit more fuel for font of magic, or usable to get extra casts of spells like shield and absorb elements). and 3 1st level spells, Hex being obvious, Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hagar being a likely second (AoA being the generally better choice) and Hellish Rebuke being another interesting choice.
I like some of the 1DND changes, like the customizable backgrounds and level 1 feats.
I'm almost okay with half casting Warlocks, providing they can properly integrate the pseudo-full casting. Invocations are a cool concept, some are very good, but most are not.
However, when it boils down to it, why would I give up a level 12 Hexblade capable of rolling almost 150 damage a round, for a regular bladelock that barely reaches a third of that?
Even if Hexblade ends up getting some new stuff it won't achieve the heights it used to.
Given that Paladin has had it's DPR nerfed, I think what Pact of the Blade has right now is quiet in-line. If you look at it, Pact of the Blade gives most of what Paladin gives, you're only missing out on smites and smite spells; but Hex does on the most part make up for that lack of Smite damage, and Warlock will still have access to higher levelled spells via Mystic Arcanum. So I do not know what form a new Hexblade would take.
It’s no supposed to. Your Hexblade is over tuned and dealing far too much reliable damage per turn.
Definitely true, I am imagining it's done via using a 1d10 Polearm, polearm master. Hex, Hexblade's Curse, 1 smite and life drinker. Getting up to three attacks a turn, 2d10+1d4+5*3+5*3+3d6+4*3+6d8. If you ignore the accuracy of an attack rolls, you're talking I believe, 103 damage... for level 12, if you have a +2 polearm, an extra 6 damage.
That is still missing another 41 damage, I can only imagine the additional 41 damage comes from the Opportunity Attack with another Eldritch Smite on top. But you're burnt out after this 1 round display, need a short rest before you can repeat. However, even without the Eldritch Smites, it's a lot of damage. 66 DPR, or 54 without Hexblade's Curse. Hexblade+Pact Blade is by far the strongest Warlock build... if ultra specialized it just gets insane and the passive DPR is enough to beat half of the dedicated martial characters.
If their party is helping with any damage at all they drop most CR 12 monsters round one. 150 damage drops so many alone. If I’m the DM and my CR12 130hp intelligent monster takes over 100 points of damage from one player before its turn, it runs away. I also stop having one big bad and start dealing with the slower multi enemy combat.
The more I look at it it does seem that the cantrip scaling with character level was quite short sighted and very design asymmetrical with the rest of the multiclass ruling. The only thing I can see for it now is to not completely ruin a characters resourceless output. I can only image the cluckster if extra attack worked in a similar manner.
Synaptic Static also hits ability checks and concentration checks. If going up against other casters, that can be incredibly useful as it lowers their chance of a successful counterspell and concentration checks. Psychic damage is also rarely resisted. I would take spells like Wall of Force over Hold Monster any day, as you said, Hold Monster is quite unreliable, as it should be. Often times, I would not even get a good chance to use it as the BBEG can just Legendary Resistance it. Spells like Wall of Force not offering a save can control the spell immediately.
From my experience from multiple 1-20 campaigns, on time spell progression has a huge benefit and not something to take lightly. The benefit from warlock has to match the benefit of on time spell progression. Is Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast good? Yes, it is a good single target blasting option. However, that is all it is, single target blasting. It isn't something game breaking that it surpasses on time spell progression. I still believe you are undervaluing on time spell progression; the trade off is quite fair from how I see it.
Also, I would not call sorcerer overpowered, at least not the 5E version anyway. I always felt sorcerer to be on the lower end of the caster power level spectrum due to their limited spell selection.
It is the best single target cantrip in the game when combined with AB. It gets even more powerful combined with 5e version of hex. Their is a reason so many people were dipping warlock it at wasn’t all Hexblade. There was a whole lot of Hexblade too. In 5e the EB+AB+Hex combo from a two level dip made the sorcerer far more flexible in spell selection. They no longer had to worry about good damage and could select more versatile spells.
Also if the EB+AB+Hex isn’t that powerful why are so many people arguing to bring it back for multiclass scaling. It works fine for the the new Warlock. My only argument is they should have the 5e version of Hex, and an invocation that makes hex at will
While it is not as powerful as some people are making it out to be, it was still a strong option for single target damage; being strong isn't the same thing as being game breaking. It still feel well within the power curve of 5E. Also, hex in 5E falls off really quickly, as it uses your concentration.
I really would have liked to see them work more with the short rest slots and making them actually feel good to use and progress in rather than limit EB to warlock level scaling. Making Warlock a half-caster and making EB use warlock level scaling as an incentive for more warlock levels feels lazy to me and doesn't really make warlock any more enticing.
Personally, I agree with the point made previously that just because it’s strong doesn’t make it game breaking. They wanted to incentivize people to not just dip warlock clearly. I feel like they succeeded well with that, outside of Eldritch Blast only scaling with warlock level. They shouldn’t have done that because 1) it wasn’t actually game breaking, merely strong, 2) it was popular, and 3) I’d have at least liked a choice whether to dip or not. To the third point: now, I have more of a serious choice to not just dip warlock because of the amazing mechanics of the new class. I would still have at least liked the choice.
Moreover, I do agree with the other point made previously: that 5e was a case study in it working and not being an issue. People using the same builds repeatedly to me isn’t an issue. It’s an issue if the other builds or classes aren’t as interesting or fun, to be sure. But that’s less a comment on Eldritch Blast and more of a comment on the other classes. Now, for fighter, sorcerer, and monoclassed warlock, they’ve successfully done that (even with EB scaling solely with warlock level too.). Hence why I would say it should’ve remained the same in terms of scaling-it was just unnecessary. This is an extension of a larger and sloppier issue however: that they rolled spell like features and class specific cantrips into one thing. It’s a sloppy fix and just terrible.
Regarding Hex: It sucked in 5e past a certain point. They nerfed it even more, further disincentivizing using the spell. On top of that, they then gave it for free. Like honestly I just stopped taking Hex because I never used it really, and if I’m getting another spell for free I’d rather get Hellish Rebuke or Armor of Agathys or Arms of Hadaar for free. I used those way more and across games’ progression. On top of that, Hex Master is so terrible I would rather dip 3 levels of sorcerer or 2 of sorcerer and 1 of fighter just to avoid it. It’s a waste of a feature and it sucks.
What higher level warlock mechanic are you sticking with warlock for?
Mystic Arcanum are just worse higher level slots, which you will get just as fast by multiclassing with a full caster. All of their "features" are invocations. So unless you are talking about a specific high level invocation besides MA if EB can scale with character level you are better 2 level dip and multiclassing and you should never go past 2 with warlock.
That is the problem. It isn't overpowered, but it is certainly game breaking and unhealthy for the game.