Quote from Ain_Undos >>

How about something like this:

HIT POINTS

Hit Dice: 1d8 per Monk level

PROFICIENCIES

Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity

Skills (Choose 2): Acrobatics, Athletics, History,

Insight, Religion, Stealth

Weapons: Simple Weapons

Tools: Choose one type of Artisan’s Tool or Musical

Instrument

ARMOR TRAINING

Light Armor, Medium Armor

 

1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS

Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmored or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield:

 

Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.

Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.

Martial Arts Dice. You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. The number of dice increases as you gain Monk levels, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, 4d4 at 12th. 

 

1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE

While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, as bonus action you can select one creature within 5ft of you to be unable to make Attacks of Opportunity against you until the end of your turn. 

 

1ST LEVEL: WEAPON MASTERY

Your training with weapons allows you to use the Mastery property of two kinds of Simple weapons of your choice, such as Daggers and Spears.

Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of Simple weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the Mastery properties of Maces and Slings.

 

2ND LEVEL: MARTIAL DISCIPLINE

Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points. Your Monk level plus proficiency bonus determine the number of points you have, as shown in the Discipline Points column of the Monk table.

You can spend these points to fuel various Martial Discipline features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Martial Discipline features as you gain levels in this class.

When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Once per long rest you may spend 1 minute in a meditative state at the end of which you regain all expended Discipline Points. While in the meditative state you are Blinded, sitting Prone, your speed is zero, you can’t take bonus actions, and must use your action each turn to maintain the state. If the 1 minute meditative state is interrupted you do not gain any of its benefits, but you may attempt to use the meditative state again before you complete a long rest. 

Some of your Martial Discipline features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC

equals 8 plus your Proficiency Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.

Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.

Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If you are hit by an attack and take damage before the start of your next turn you regain 1 Discipline Point at the start of your next turn (only 1 no matter how many times you were hit and took damage)

Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action: 

• Use the Disengage action 
• Use the Dash action and your jump distance is doubled for the turn
• Make on Unarmed Strike

 

 

2ND LEVEL: UNARMORED MOVEMENT

Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. While wearing Light Armor and not wielding a Shield you still gain some of the benefits of this increased movement. Your speed increases by half the amount shown on the monk table rounded up to the nearest increment of 5 feet.

 

3RD LEVEL: EXTRAORDINARY REFLEXES

• Deflect Missiles. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your Monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack.
• Follow Up. While unarmored you can use your Reaction when you miss an Unarmed Strike made with your Bonus Action to immediately make another Unarmed Strike as part of that same Bonus Action.
• Prepared Defense. While unarmored you can use Reaction if you are hit by an attack that has disadvantage to gain resistance to all of that attack's damage. 
• Unseen Step. While unarmored you can use a Reaction when you take the Dash action to become Invisible until the end of this turn or until you make an attack, or force a creature to make a saving throw. You don’t make sound or leave tracks while invisible on this turn.

3RD LEVEL: MONK SUBCLASS

You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Warrior of Mercy, Warrior of Shadow, Warrior of the Four Elements, or Warrior of the Open Hand. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description (for this playtest, use Way of Mercy from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything for Warrior of Mercy).

A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at certain Monk levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Monk level and lower.

 

4TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

4TH LEVEL: SLOW FALL

You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.

 

5TH LEVEL: EXTRA ATTACK

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

 

5TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED STRIKES

Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Simple Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can spend Discipline Points to attempt a special strike:

• Dazing Strike- 1 Discipline point- The target takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Dazed condition until the start of your next turn.
• Lingering Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or they have to subtract 1d4 from their saving throws until the start of your next turn.
  
• Slowing Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target must takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or have their movement speed halved until the start of your next turn.
• Stunning Strike- 2 Discipline Points- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the start of your next turn.

 

6TH LEVEL: EMPOWERED STRIKES

Whenever you deal damage with your Unarmed Strike, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type.

 

6TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

 

7TH LEVEL: EVASION

When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.

 

7TH LEVEL: ACROBATIC MOVEMENT

While you aren’t wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.

 

8TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

9TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED SURVIVOR

Your physical and mental discipline grant you proficiency in all saving throws.

Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to reroll it and take the second result.

 

10TH LEVEL: SELF-RESTORATION

Through sheer force of will, if you start your turn with Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned condition you can immediately use a Bonus Action to remove one of the conditions from yourself.

In addition, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you levels of Exhaustion.

 

11TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

 

12TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

13TH LEVEL: DEFLECT ENERGY

You can now use your Deflect Missiles feature against ranged attacks that deal any damage type, not just Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.

 

14TH LEVEL: CONNECTED UNDERSTANDING

Your extraordinary internal energy extends beyond your physical body connecting you to other creatures. You gain the following:

•  You understand all spoken language and all creatures that understand a language understand what you say.
• Once per turn when you miss with an attack that uses your Martial Arts Dice for damage the target still takes half the attack's damage, but the damage type is Psychic instead of its normal damage type.

 

15TH LEVEL: PERFECT DISCIPLINE

When you roll Initiative, you regain 4 expended Discipline Points if you have less than half your maximum Discipline Points remaining.

 

16TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

17TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

 

18TH LEVEL: SUPERIOR DEFENSE

As a Bonus Action, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to perfectly bolster yourself against harm for 1 minute or until you are Incapacitated. During that time, you have resistance to all damage except Force damage.

 

19TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

20TH LEVEL: PERFECT SELF

You have honed your mind and body through rigorous training pushing them beyond their normal limitations gaining the following:

 

 

• Empty Body. You can spend 8 Discipline Points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so, you can’t take any other creatures with you.

• Timeless Body. You suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can’t be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however.

• Trained Body. Increase ability scores of your choice by a combined total of 4. That can be four ability scores by 1, two ability scores by 2, one ability score by 1 and another by ability score by 3, one ability by 2 and two other ability scores by 1, or one ability score by 4. You can increase an ability score using this ability to a maximum of 24.

 

 

 not bad definitely better then what we have now.

ranger actually out damages them both lol 

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack
11.35 DPR
24 HP
15-16 AC

5eR DEX Ranger (Heavy Xbow+ Hunter's Mark): 0.75*(5.5+3+3.5)
9 DPR
28 HP
15 AC

5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword): 0.65*(7+3) + 0.35*3
7.5 DPR
28 HP
16 AC

 The only things really helpful from this is your Stunning Strike observation and the observation that the Monk lacks any features that help outside of combat except my tongue and moon rewrite. Maybe it should be 1d4+1 additional damage for that 2ki cost. That way it gives something more than just opportunity to stun for the cost increase, but not so much more you feel like you have to be doing that. I don’t mind things being optimal. There will always be an optimal choice. My goql is to make sure it’s not the only reasonable choice. I already feel like the multiple options gives players something to think about. I probably should have come up with one that effects each save.

As much as I don’t like white room numbers if they are going to be useful it’s better to run them against Barbarian and Fighter. Trying to fix the caster divide has to be saved for 6e at this point. Also I believe at level 13th plus my Monk at least catches the Ranger in DPR.

You seem to like running the numbers if you could compare my monk to Fighter and Barbarian that could be helpful and appreciated. 

 Barbarian and Fighter do even more damage, I used Ranger because they are typically seen as "average" martial damage, and are skirmishers like monk, whereas Barb & Fighter are much more tanky and much more DPR. As for your other options vs Stunning Strike, they are terrible, I'd never ever use them which is why I didn't even mention them. 1 DP for 40% chance of -1d4 to maybe 2 saving throws? Who would waste their time with that when FoB has 65% success rate and dead is the ultimate debuff.

 You realize my build isn’t one were you have to choose flurry of blows or dedicated strike. You can burn through your DP and do both. The additional damage from dedicated strike no matter which on you choose would happen either way. The 1d4 is basically an added boon so you don’t feel like total crap when someone makes the save. I don’t know who decided that a spellcaster is average for martial damage when they are a spellcaster and greatly boost their damage with spells. Also I have never seen anyone consider a Ranger a Skirmisher or seen anyone play them that way. I’m not worried about what features you would never use considering you would never play a monk unless they were a fighter subclass.

Edit: I see that you edited your post to include the fighter and Barbarian damage, thank you, but why do the rounds between rest keep increasing. That favors classes with no resources to burn and isn’t really how the game is played. 

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack
11.35 DPR
24 HP
15-16 AC

5eR DEX Ranger (Heavy Xbow+ Hunter's Mark): 0.75*(5.5+3+3.5)
9 DPR
28 HP
15 AC

5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword): 0.65*(7+3) + 0.35*3
7.5 DPR
28 HP
16 AC

 The only things really helpful from this is your Stunning Strike observation and the observation that the Monk lacks any features that help outside of combat except my tongue and moon rewrite. Maybe it should be 1d4+1 additional damage for that 2ki cost. That way it gives something more than just opportunity to stun for the cost increase, but not so much more you feel like you have to be doing that. I don’t mind things being optimal. There will always be an optimal choice. My goql is to make sure it’s not the only reasonable choice. I already feel like the multiple options gives players something to think about. I probably should have come up with one that effects each save.

As much as I don’t like white room numbers if they are going to be useful it’s better to run them against Barbarian and Fighter. Trying to fix the caster divide has to be saved for 6e at this point. Also I believe at level 13th plus my Monk at least catches the Ranger in DPR.

You seem to like running the numbers if you could compare my monk to Fighter and Barbarian that could be helpful and appreciated. 

 Barbarian and Fighter do even more damage, I used Ranger because they are typically seen as "average" martial damage, and are skirmishers like monk, whereas Barb & Fighter are much more tanky and much more DPR. As for your other options vs Stunning Strike, they are terrible, I'd never ever use them which is why I didn't even mention them. 1 DP for 40% chance of -1d4 to maybe 2 saving throws? Who would waste their time with that when FoB has 65% success rate and dead is the ultimate debuff.

 You realize my build isn’t one were you have to choose flurry of blows or dedicated strike. You can burn through your DP and do both. The additional damage from dedicated strike no matter which on you choose would happen either way. The 1d4 is basically an added boon so you don’t feel like total crap when someone makes the save. I don’t know who decided that a spellcaster is average for martial damage when they are a spellcaster and greatly boost their damage with spells. Also I have never seen anyone consider a Ranger a Skirmisher or seen anyone play them that way. I’m not worried about what features you would never use considering you would never play a monk unless they were a fighter subclass.

Edit: I see that you edited your post to include the fighter and Barbarian damage, thank you, but why do the rounds between rest keep increasing. That favors classes with no resources to burn and isn’t really how the game is played. 

 Well to answer your accusation, I have actually been arguing against all the people who just want to turn monk into a Fighter subclass. I've played: an Open Hand monk, a Sun Soul monk, a Mercy monk, and a Fighter-monk MC. I've DMed for a Drunken Master monk, and a 4 Elements monk, and a Moon-druid Monk MC. And played along side an Astral Self monk. I love the concept of monks, but they just are not effective in combat. They have the worst of all worlds, less damage & survivability than a martial, worse battlefield control than a caster, and minimal out-of-combat utility. The only thing they excel at is Mobility and that is irrelevant in 80% of combats because the party is: in a building, in a dungeon, on a boat, or getting ambushed. 

The only monk that feels powerful is the Mercy monk because of it's "Hands of Harm" which deals more damage than FoB and at higher levels causes the Poisoned condition with no saving throw, which is simply superior to all of your Disciplined Strike options. The only change you've added that is a significant improvement is the reaction to reroll an attack that misses. Sure the unarmed strike damage scales slightly better but it's still not enough to keep up with the revamped Fighter & Barbarian, not even enough to keep up with the revamped Ranger. 

Sure you can burn through DP to do both but with 2 encounters between short rests that just means you get a slight nova round and then are out of DP for the rest of the combat. Round of combat increases because IME that is required to keep spellcasters from being able to carelessly a high level spell every turn. If you're playing a game with only 4 rounds of combat at all tiers of play, the debate is kind of moot because spellcasters will outshine everyone else easily.

IME when the spellcaster is out of spells the adventuring day is over unless they are somewhere that it is impossible to rest. IME Poisoned is bad condition because of how many creatures are immune to the condition. 757 one dndbeyond but some are surely duplicates. Still that’s a lot. Most Constructs, Fiends, and Undead are immune to the Poisoned condition. But I have never seen a high level Mercy Monk in play so maybe that is good. Just seems weak to me. Originally Lingering Strike was going to be straight up disadvantage on saving throws, but while I have you saying it’s too weak in its current form, I would have had 15 people telling me disadvantage on all saving throws is too strong in its original form. 

Well here is my second attempt.

HIT POINTS

Hit Dice: 1d12 per Monk level

PROFICIENCIES

Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity

Skills (Choose 2): Acrobatics, Athletics, History,

Insight, Religion, Stealth

Weapons: Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons

Tools: Choose one type of Artisan’s Tool or Musical

Instrument

ARMOR TRAINING

Light Armor, Medium Armor

1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS

Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Weapons.

You gain the following benefits while you aren’t wearing Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield:

Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.

Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.

Martial Arts Dice. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. The number of dice increases as you gain Monk levels, 2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 11th, 4d6 at 12th. 

1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE

While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, you can use Disengage action as bonus action. 

1ST LEVEL: WEAPON MASTERY

Your training with weapons allows you to use the Mastery property of two kinds of Simple weapons of your choice, such as Daggers and Spears.

Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the Mastery properties of Maces and Slings.

2ND LEVEL: MARTIAL DISCIPLINE

Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points. Your Monk level plus proficiency bonus plus your Wisdom modifier(minimum 1) determine the number of points you have, as shown in the Discipline Points column of the Monk table.

You can spend these points to fuel various Martial Discipline features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Martial Discipline features as you gain levels in this class.

When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Once per long rest you may spend 1 minute in a meditative state at the end of which you regain all expended Discipline Points. While in the meditative state you are Blinded, sitting Prone, your speed is zero, you can’t take bonus actions, and must use your action each turn to maintain the state. If the 1 minute meditative state is interrupted you do not gain any of its benefits, but you may attempt to use the meditative state again before you complete a long rest. 

Some of your Martial Discipline features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC

equals 8 plus your Proficiency Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.

Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.

Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. You may also take one unarmed strike as part of this Bonus Action.

Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action: 

• Use the Disengage action 
• Use the Dash action and your jump distance is doubled for the turn
• Make on Unarmed Strike

2ND LEVEL: UNARMORED MOVEMENT

Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. While wearing Light Armor and not wielding a Shield you still gain some of the benefits of this increased movement. Your speed increases by half the amount shown on the monk table rounded up to the nearest increment of 5 feet.

3RD LEVEL: EXTRAORDINARY REFLEXES

• Deflect Missiles. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your Monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack.
• Follow Up. While unarmored you can use your Reaction when you miss an Unarmed Strike made with your Bonus Action to immediately make another Unarmed Strike as part of that same Bonus Action.
• Prepared Defense. While unarmored you can use Reaction if you are hit by an attack that has disadvantage to gain resistance to all of that attack's damage. 
• Unseen Step. While unarmored you can use a Reaction when you take the Dash action to become Invisible until the end of this turn or until you make an attack, or force a creature to make a saving throw. You don’t make sound or leave tracks while invisible on this turn.

3RD LEVEL: MONK SUBCLASS

You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Warrior of Mercy, Warrior of Shadow, Warrior of the Four Elements, or Warrior of the Open Hand. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description (for this playtest, use Way of Mercy from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything for Warrior of Mercy).

A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at certain Monk levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Monk level and lower.

4TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

4TH LEVEL: SLOW FALL

You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level. Alternatively beginning at 7th level you can use this feature to jump off the air. While falling or in the middle of a Jump you may use your reaction to jump as if you had a running start. 

5TH LEVEL: EXTRA ATTACK

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

5TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED STRIKES

Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can spend Discipline Points to attempt a special strike:

• Dazing Strike- 1 Discipline point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Dazed condition until the end of your next turn.
• Exposing Strike- 1 Disciple Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed an Intelligence saving throw or the next melee attack to hit the target before the end of your next turn deals 1d10+ your Wisdom modifier additional damage of the same type as the attack.
• Intimidating Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or have the Frightened condition until the end of your next turn.
• Lingering Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or disadvantage on saving throws until the end of your next turn.
• Numbing Strike- 1 Discipline Strike- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have disadvantage on their attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
• Stopping Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or their movement speed is 0 until the end of your next turn
• Stunning Strike- 2 Discipline Points- The target takes an additional 3d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn.

6TH LEVEL: EMPOWERED STRIKES

Whenever you deal damage with your Unarmed Strike, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type. Additionally you gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes. This increases at higher levels. +2 at 11th, +3 at 17th. 

6TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

7TH LEVEL: NIMBLE EVASION

When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Additionally while unarmored you have Advantage on Stealth checks. 

You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.

7TH LEVEL: ACROBATIC MOVEMENT

While you aren’t wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement. Additionally while unarmored when you fail a Strength or Dexterity check you may expend 1 Discipline point to add 2d4 to the roll possibly turning the failure into a success. 

8TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

9TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED SURVIVOR

Your physical and mental discipline grant you proficiency in all saving throws.

Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to reroll it and take the second result. If the second result fails you don't lose the Discipline Point.

10TH LEVEL: SELF-RESTORATION

Through sheer force of will, if you start your turn with Charmed, Dazed, Frightened, or Slowed condition you can immediately use a Bonus Action to remove all of those conditions from yourself. You are also immune to Poison and the Poison Condition. 

In addition, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you levels of Exhaustion.

11TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

12TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

13TH LEVEL: DEFLECT ENERGY

You can now use your Deflect Missiles feature against ranged attacks that deal any damage type, not just Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.

14TH LEVEL: CONNECTED UNDERSTANDING

Your extraordinary internal energy extends beyond your physical body connecting you to other creatures. You gain the following:

•  You understand all spoken language and all creatures that understand a language understand what you say.
• When you miss with an attack that uses your Martial Arts Dice for damage the target still takes half the attack's damage, but the damage type is Psychic instead of its normal damage type.

15TH LEVEL: PERFECT DISCIPLINE

When you roll Initiative, you regain 4 expended Discipline Points.

16TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

17TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

18TH LEVEL: SUPERIOR DEFENSE

As a Bonus Action, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to perfectly bolster yourself against harm for 1 minute. During that time, you have resistance to all damage.

19TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

20TH LEVEL: PERFECT SELF

You have honed your mind and body through rigorous training pushing them beyond their normal limitations gaining the following:

• Death Defying Body. If you are dropped to 0 Hit points or instantly killed, you instead have 1 Hit Point and may immediately expend up to 6 Discipline Points. Roll a 1d10 for each Discipline Point expended and gain Hit Points equal to the Dice Roll plus your Wisdom modifier(minimum 1). You may use this ability once and regain the ability to use it when you complete a Short Rest or Long Rest or you may expend 1 Discipline point no action needed to regain a use of this ability. 

• Empty Body. You can spend 8 Discipline Points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so with no components, you can’t take any other creatures with you. If you use the material components the spell works as it normally does. 

• Timeless Body. You suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can’t be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. You may spend 10 minutes to alter your appearance and size to look as you would from Toddler years to the 20 years beyond your life expectancy. You have control over your hair length and other features. None of your Ability Scores change. 

• Trained Body. Increase ability scores of your choice by a combined total of 4. That can be four ability scores by 1, two ability scores by 2, one ability score by 1 and another by ability score by 3, one ability by 2 and two other ability scores by 1, or one ability score by 4. You can increase an ability score using this ability to a maximum of 24.

So this is a joke. I know this is Over tuned. If you don’t believe this is over tuned please tell me why it isn’t. If you think it is over tuned like I do, please tell me why. I work in the entertainment industry, well when the last strike ends, anyway I see value in going to far. It’s often easier to dial things back than to build up from nothing. It’s almost better to go to far than not far enough. On these forums I have critiqued a lot of monk builds and ideas for going too far, but my mock up is probably built on those ideas dialed down to what I consider workable. Now I’m shooting intentionally aiming too high and trying to work it down to something good. Personally I wouldn’t give Monks access to all Martial Weapons. At most I might bring Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon in into a build. I would save weapons for Warrior of Weapons. My damage is cranked pretty high. It needs to back down. A lot of the features had limitations and qualifiers attached to them and this mock up just removed all of them. I wouldn’t actually do that. I still have my real second mock up, but it’s probably still under tuned, so bringing this over tuned version down would help land on something helpful.

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.

A Monk's dice is supposed to represent martial arts skill and training; it needs to compete with using something else as an amateur otherwise what's the point of spending years training in the martial arts?

Also, since people keep quoting your class proposal in full can we please move that out to its own thread? It's absolutely dominating this one now, it'd be easier to discuss one specific set of proposals in its own thread. I posted one for mine, though I haven't had much time to do any further work on it.

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Well here is my second attempt.

HIT POINTS

Hit Dice: 1d12 per Monk level

PROFICIENCIES

Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity

Skills (Choose 2): Acrobatics, Athletics, History,

Insight, Religion, Stealth

Weapons: Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons

Tools: Choose one type of Artisan’s Tool or Musical

Instrument

ARMOR TRAINING

Light Armor, Medium Armor

 

1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS

Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Weapons.

You gain the following benefits while you aren’t wearing Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield:

 

Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.

Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.

Martial Arts Dice. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. The number of dice increases as you gain Monk levels, 2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 11th, 4d6 at 12th. 

 

1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE

While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, you can use Disengage action as bonus action. 

 

1ST LEVEL: WEAPON MASTERY

Your training with weapons allows you to use the Mastery property of two kinds of Simple weapons of your choice, such as Daggers and Spears.

Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the Mastery properties of Maces and Slings.

 

2ND LEVEL: MARTIAL DISCIPLINE

Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points. Your Monk level plus proficiency bonus plus your Wisdom modifier(minimum 1) determine the number of points you have, as shown in the Discipline Points column of the Monk table.

You can spend these points to fuel various Martial Discipline features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Martial Discipline features as you gain levels in this class.

When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Once per long rest you may spend 1 minute in a meditative state at the end of which you regain all expended Discipline Points. While in the meditative state you are Blinded, sitting Prone, your speed is zero, you can’t take bonus actions, and must use your action each turn to maintain the state. If the 1 minute meditative state is interrupted you do not gain any of its benefits, but you may attempt to use the meditative state again before you complete a long rest. 

Some of your Martial Discipline features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC

equals 8 plus your Proficiency Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.

Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.

Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. You may also take one unarmed strike as part of this Bonus Action.

Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action: 

• Use the Disengage action 
• Use the Dash action and your jump distance is doubled for the turn
• Make on Unarmed Strike

 

 

2ND LEVEL: UNARMORED MOVEMENT

Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. While wearing Light Armor and not wielding a Shield you still gain some of the benefits of this increased movement. Your speed increases by half the amount shown on the monk table rounded up to the nearest increment of 5 feet.

 

3RD LEVEL: EXTRAORDINARY REFLEXES

• Deflect Missiles. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your Monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack.
• Follow Up. While unarmored you can use your Reaction when you miss an Unarmed Strike made with your Bonus Action to immediately make another Unarmed Strike as part of that same Bonus Action.
• Prepared Defense. While unarmored you can use Reaction if you are hit by an attack that has disadvantage to gain resistance to all of that attack's damage. 
• Unseen Step. While unarmored you can use a Reaction when you take the Dash action to become Invisible until the end of this turn or until you make an attack, or force a creature to make a saving throw. You don’t make sound or leave tracks while invisible on this turn.

3RD LEVEL: MONK SUBCLASS

You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Warrior of Mercy, Warrior of Shadow, Warrior of the Four Elements, or Warrior of the Open Hand. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description (for this playtest, use Way of Mercy from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything for Warrior of Mercy).

A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at certain Monk levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Monk level and lower.

 

4TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

4TH LEVEL: SLOW FALL

You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level. Alternatively beginning at 7th level you can use this feature to jump off the air. While falling or in the middle of a Jump you may use your reaction to jump as if you had a running start. 

 

5TH LEVEL: EXTRA ATTACK

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

 

5TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED STRIKES

Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can spend Discipline Points to attempt a special strike:

• Dazing Strike- 1 Discipline point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Dazed condition until the end of your next turn.
• Exposing Strike- 1 Disciple Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed an Intelligence saving throw or the next melee attack to hit the target before the end of your next turn deals 1d10+ your Wisdom modifier additional damage of the same type as the attack.
• Intimidating Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or have the Frightened condition until the end of your next turn.
• Lingering Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or disadvantage on saving throws until the end of your next turn.
• Numbing Strike- 1 Discipline Strike- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have disadvantage on their attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
• Stopping Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or their movement speed is 0 until the end of your next turn
• Stunning Strike- 2 Discipline Points- The target takes an additional 3d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn.

 

6TH LEVEL: EMPOWERED STRIKES

Whenever you deal damage with your Unarmed Strike, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type. Additionally you gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes. This increases at higher levels. +2 at 11th, +3 at 17th. 

 

6TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

 

7TH LEVEL: NIMBLE EVASION

When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Additionally while unarmored you have Advantage on Stealth checks. 

You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.

 

7TH LEVEL: ACROBATIC MOVEMENT

While you aren’t wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement. Additionally while unarmored when you fail a Strength or Dexterity check you may expend 1 Discipline point to add 2d4 to the roll possibly turning the failure into a success. 

 

8TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

9TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED SURVIVOR

Your physical and mental discipline grant you proficiency in all saving throws.

Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to reroll it and take the second result. If the second result fails you don't lose the Discipline Point.

 

10TH LEVEL: SELF-RESTORATION

Through sheer force of will, if you start your turn with Charmed, Dazed, Frightened, or Slowed condition you can immediately use a Bonus Action to remove all of those conditions from yourself. You are also immune to Poison and the Poison Condition. 

In addition, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you levels of Exhaustion.

 

11TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

 

12TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

13TH LEVEL: DEFLECT ENERGY

You can now use your Deflect Missiles feature against ranged attacks that deal any damage type, not just Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.

 

14TH LEVEL: CONNECTED UNDERSTANDING

Your extraordinary internal energy extends beyond your physical body connecting you to other creatures. You gain the following:

•  You understand all spoken language and all creatures that understand a language understand what you say.
• When you miss with an attack that uses your Martial Arts Dice for damage the target still takes half the attack's damage, but the damage type is Psychic instead of its normal damage type.

 

15TH LEVEL: PERFECT DISCIPLINE

When you roll Initiative, you regain 4 expended Discipline Points.

 

16TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

17TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE

You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.

 

18TH LEVEL: SUPERIOR DEFENSE

As a Bonus Action, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to perfectly bolster yourself against harm for 1 minute. During that time, you have resistance to all damage.

 

19TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT 

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.

 

20TH LEVEL: PERFECT SELF

You have honed your mind and body through rigorous training pushing them beyond their normal limitations gaining the following:

 

 

• Death Defying Body. If you are dropped to 0 Hit points or instantly killed, you instead have 1 Hit Point and may immediately expend up to 6 Discipline Points. Roll a 1d10 for each Discipline Point expended and gain Hit Points equal to the Dice Roll plus your Wisdom modifier(minimum 1). You may use this ability once and regain the ability to use it when you complete a Short Rest or Long Rest or you may expend 1 Discipline point no action needed to regain a use of this ability. 

• Empty Body. You can spend 8 Discipline Points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so with no components, you can’t take any other creatures with you. If you use the material components the spell works as it normally does. 

• Timeless Body. You suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can’t be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. You may spend 10 minutes to alter your appearance and size to look as you would from Toddler years to the 20 years beyond your life expectancy. You have control over your hair length and other features. None of your Ability Scores change. 

• Trained Body. Increase ability scores of your choice by a combined total of 4. That can be four ability scores by 1, two ability scores by 2, one ability score by 1 and another by ability score by 3, one ability by 2 and two other ability scores by 1, or one ability score by 4. You can increase an ability score using this ability to a maximum of 24.

 

 

 

 

So this is a joke. I know this is Over tuned. If you don’t believe this is over tuned please tell me why it isn’t. If you think it is over tuned like I do, please tell me why. I work in the entertainment industry, well when the last strike ends, anyway I see value in going to far. It’s often easier to dial things back than to build up from nothing. It’s almost better to go to far than not far enough. On these forums I have critiqued a lot of monk builds and ideas for going too far, but my mock up is probably built on those ideas dialed down to what I consider workable. Now I’m shooting intentionally aiming too high and trying to work it down to something good. Personally I wouldn’t give Monks access to all Martial Weapons. At most I might bring Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon in into a build. I would save weapons for Warrior of Weapons. My damage is cranked pretty high. It needs to back down. A lot of the features had limitations and qualifiers attached to them and this mock up just removed all of them. I wouldn’t actually do that. I still have my real second mock up, but it’s probably still under tuned, so bringing this over tuned version down would help land on something helpful.

1d12 HD too much.  I know some have called for 1d10hd.  My preference would be 1d8 HD and a reaction parry on melee attacks to reduce damage.  You have that in your prepared defense feature and i think that is suficient.  With the new character origins any monk can start with a free tough feat so extra hp are already available under the new rules.

I like adding in one unarmed strike to PD and Sotw as well as free unarmored bonus Disengage.  None of those are over tuned.

With regards to your extraordinary reflexes and discipline strikes.  It's too much to have access to all of them. but if you made an option to pick one and maybe later on get another one or swap it out for another as you gain levels it might be reasonable.  I like the idea of having options to customize a monk the way a battlemaster can pick maneuvers.  For example, deflect missiles has been a useless feature in any monk I have played but if i had the option to swap that out for prepared Defense I would do that every time.

I think we will see tashas dedicated weapon in the next monk UA.

Crawford also mentioned when they came out with tavern brawler they were going to add more magic items for unarmed combat so building the +1,+2,+3 under empowered strikes is overturned but also hopefully not even necessary. 

When I suggested, or rather mentioned on this thread (I read it on other thread, can't remember which), the idea of an increase in the number of dice instead of the die size, some people went for my neck claiming it was waaaaaayyy too powerful, but I showed that it would only be slightly above the minimum damage everyone deals (Yes, I ONLY use min and MAX damage for analysis, average damage does not exist when you roll the dice, right?), but maybe it's like stepping too much into the rogue's sneak attack damage?

I also have an idea of a base monk rework, but I feel it rather pointless. We know for a fact that WotC is doing their best to weaken the class (Shortsword's behaviour between UAs and not being able to use Crusher on BPS inmune enemies is at least hinting that's their intent). If anything I planned on using a bit of customization on different levels (like fighting styles or the UA's cleric orders) and having additional options for reactions (or even multiple reactions, something it was also frowned upon on this thread).

Quote from Haravikk >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.

A Monk's dice is supposed to represent martial arts skill and training; it needs to compete with using something else as an amateur otherwise what's the point of spending years training in the martial arts?

Also, since people keep quoting your class proposal in full can we please move that out to its own thread? It's absolutely dominating this one now, it'd be easier to discuss one specific set of proposals in its own thread. I posted one for mine, though I haven't had much time to do any further work on it.

 What D&D class is an amateur? And amatuer with a dagger doesn’t add proficiency to the attack roll, that doesn’t make the dagger not hurt when you get stabbed by them. An armature in punching and kicking is proficient but doesn’t get a damage die, they instead deal flat damage. Maybe the design mistake was assuming that everyone is proficient at throwing a punch, and using improvised weapons. It’s too late to change that now, and it still doesn’t change that 1d4 to 4d4 is better scaling than 1d6 to 1d12.

Broadly speaking, D&D applies larger hit dice to classes whose archetype is a big beefy type (though there's plenty of viable dex builds with d10s... would be interesting if Strength affected hit dice) and that's not the archetype the monk is trying for.

Quote from NinSlayer >>

When I suggested, or rather mentioned on this thread (I read it on other thread, can't remember which), the idea of an increase in the number of dice instead of the die size, some people went for my neck claiming it was waaaaaayyy too powerful, but I showed that it would only be slightly above the minimum damage everyone deals (Yes, I ONLY use min and MAX damage for analysis, average damage does not exist when you roll the dice, right?), but maybe it's like stepping too much into the rogue's sneak attack damage?

I also have an idea of a base monk rework, but I feel it rather pointless. We know for a fact that WotC is doing their best to weaken the class (Shortsword's behaviour between UAs and not being able to use Crusher on BPS inmune enemies is at least hinting that's their intent). If anything I planned on using a bit of customization on different levels (like fighting styles or the UA's cleric orders) and having additional options for reactions (or even multiple reactions, something it was also frowned upon on this thread).

It does seem like wotc is trying to weaken the monk, but i am hopeful the feedback after the last UA was strong enough that they will come back a little bit on that.   🤞

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Haravikk >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.

A Monk's dice is supposed to represent martial arts skill and training; it needs to compete with using something else as an amateur otherwise what's the point of spending years training in the martial arts?

Also, since people keep quoting your class proposal in full can we please move that out to its own thread? It's absolutely dominating this one now, it'd be easier to discuss one specific set of proposals in its own thread. I posted one for mine, though I haven't had much time to do any further work on it.

 What D&D class is an amateur? And amatuer with a dagger doesn’t add proficiency to the attack roll, that doesn’t make the dagger not hurt when you get stabbed by them. An armature in punching and kicking is proficient but doesn’t get a damage die, they instead deal flat damage. Maybe the design mistake was assuming that everyone is proficient at throwing a punch, and using improvised weapons. It’s too late to change that now, and it still doesn’t change that 1d4 to 4d4 is better scaling than 1d6 to 1d12.

daggers, in 5e, are simple weapons, and simple weapons are basically non martial versions of weapons. Dagger is a weaker scimitar.I don't mind the d4 even though its kinda lame, because to me level 1-4 is generally lame for every class. The monk just has to use weapon/unarmed mix before 5. (if they are damage focused)

Quote from Masterofki >>

Quote from NinSlayer >>

When I suggested, or rather mentioned on this thread (I read it on other thread, can't remember which), the idea of an increase in the number of dice instead of the die size, some people went for my neck claiming it was waaaaaayyy too powerful, but I showed that it would only be slightly above the minimum damage everyone deals (Yes, I ONLY use min and MAX damage for analysis, average damage does not exist when you roll the dice, right?), but maybe it's like stepping too much into the rogue's sneak attack damage?

I also have an idea of a base monk rework, but I feel it rather pointless. We know for a fact that WotC is doing their best to weaken the class (Shortsword's behaviour between UAs and not being able to use Crusher on BPS inmune enemies is at least hinting that's their intent). If anything I planned on using a bit of customization on different levels (like fighting styles or the UA's cleric orders) and having additional options for reactions (or even multiple reactions, something it was also frowned upon on this thread).

 

It does seem like wotc is trying to weaken the monk, but i am hopeful the feedback after the last UA was strong enough that they will come back a little bit on that.   🤞

though we will never find out, I would really like to know what the thought process was on that monk. Its so foreign to me what was the concept. Like what issues do they think they were solving? Also Why was the design imperative for every other class to improve them, but for monk, it was to weaken it?  The d12 improvement is actually a rebalance for nerfing weapons., because the nick monk would have had 5d10. Deflect energy is a ribbon, nice, but rarely actually will come into play. the only improvement is the SR skill, which let's be honest, doesnt really increase monk's power, just mitigates a poorly resting party slightly. A good resting party won't see much change there.

It was the worst since the first rogue, but that one I can understand, because rogue has high approval, they thought it could stay fairly similar. It was also early, and there was less context on the other classes.

No hatred if the monk ends up in an OK place, but I just wonder how that happened.

Quote from Gwar1 >>

Quote from Masterofki >>

Quote from NinSlayer >>

When I suggested, or rather mentioned on this thread (I read it on other thread, can't remember which), the idea of an increase in the number of dice instead of the die size, some people went for my neck claiming it was waaaaaayyy too powerful, but I showed that it would only be slightly above the minimum damage everyone deals (Yes, I ONLY use min and MAX damage for analysis, average damage does not exist when you roll the dice, right?), but maybe it's like stepping too much into the rogue's sneak attack damage?

I also have an idea of a base monk rework, but I feel it rather pointless. We know for a fact that WotC is doing their best to weaken the class (Shortsword's behaviour between UAs and not being able to use Crusher on BPS inmune enemies is at least hinting that's their intent). If anything I planned on using a bit of customization on different levels (like fighting styles or the UA's cleric orders) and having additional options for reactions (or even multiple reactions, something it was also frowned upon on this thread).

 

It does seem like wotc is trying to weaken the monk, but i am hopeful the feedback after the last UA was strong enough that they will come back a little bit on that.   🤞

 

though we will never find out, I would really like to know what the thought process was on that monk. Its so foreign to me what was the concept. Like what issues do they think they were solving? Also Why was the design imperative for every other class to improve them, but for monk, it was to weaken it?  The d12 improvement is actually a rebalance for nerfing weapons., because the nick monk would have had 5d10. Deflect energy is a ribbon, nice, but rarely actually will come into play. the only improvement is the SR skill, which let's be honest, doesnt really increase monk's power, just mitigates a poorly resting party slightly. A good resting party won't see much change there.

It was the worst since the first rogue, but that one I can understand, because rogue has high approval, they thought it could stay fairly similar. It was also early, and there was less context on the other classes.

No hatred if the monk ends up in an OK place, but I just wonder how that happened.

My best guess is wotc thought stunning strike was so overpowered they needed to cut back a bit but went too far.  It's the only thing that makes sense to me.  With one or two exceptions, ever notice how all the monk level 6 subclass features are all fairly weak?  I think they do that deliberately to rebalance stunning strike at level 5.

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Haravikk >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.

A Monk's dice is supposed to represent martial arts skill and training; it needs to compete with using something else as an amateur otherwise what's the point of spending years training in the martial arts?

Also, since people keep quoting your class proposal in full can we please move that out to its own thread? It's absolutely dominating this one now, it'd be easier to discuss one specific set of proposals in its own thread. I posted one for mine, though I haven't had much time to do any further work on it.

 What D&D class is an amateur? And amatuer with a dagger doesn’t add proficiency to the attack roll, that doesn’t make the dagger not hurt when you get stabbed by them. An armature in punching and kicking is proficient but doesn’t get a damage die, they instead deal flat damage. Maybe the design mistake was assuming that everyone is proficient at throwing a punch, and using improvised weapons. It’s too late to change that now, and it still doesn’t change that 1d4 to 4d4 is better scaling than 1d6 to 1d12.

 What they are referring to with “amateur” is any race, like Aarakocra, Lizardfolk, Minotaur, etc have default 1d6 unarmed strike damage (claw, bite, horns) and will do more damage unarmed as a 1st level wizard (wizards being amateur at unarmed fighting) than a monk (the unarmed specialist)

Quote from ThriKreenWarrior >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Quote from Haravikk >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.

A Monk's dice is supposed to represent martial arts skill and training; it needs to compete with using something else as an amateur otherwise what's the point of spending years training in the martial arts?

Also, since people keep quoting your class proposal in full can we please move that out to its own thread? It's absolutely dominating this one now, it'd be easier to discuss one specific set of proposals in its own thread. I posted one for mine, though I haven't had much time to do any further work on it.

 What D&D class is an amateur? And amatuer with a dagger doesn’t add proficiency to the attack roll, that doesn’t make the dagger not hurt when you get stabbed by them. An armature in punching and kicking is proficient but doesn’t get a damage die, they instead deal flat damage. Maybe the design mistake was assuming that everyone is proficient at throwing a punch, and using improvised weapons. It’s too late to change that now, and it still doesn’t change that 1d4 to 4d4 is better scaling than 1d6 to 1d12.

 What they are referring to with “amateur” is any race, like Aarakocra, Lizardfolk, Minotaur, etc have default 1d6 unarmed strike damage (claw, bite, horns) and will do more damage unarmed as a 1st level wizard (wizards being amateur at unarmed fighting) than a monk (the unarmed specialist)

 Even that wouldn’t be an amateur using their claws, bites, or horns. Because as I explained the game assumes everyone is proficient in using their body to attack. Being an Unarmed Specialist allows a monk to increase the damage of an unarmed strike. That’s completely different than what any other trained creature does with any weapon in the game. The design mistake is the assumption that all creatures are proficient in punching in kicking or clawing and biting. That means at some level all creatures have some level of martial arts training. The Martial Arts feature in the game doesn’t make you proficient with unarmed strikes, because you already were, it increase the damage somehow. The game says unarmed strikes deal flat damage, but for monks they are actual weapons with a die roll.
Also a wizard Arakokra would make one attack at 1d6+ Str at levels 1-20 and a Monk at level 1 can make two attacks at 1d4+Str/Dex. So the level 1 monk is better at unarmed strikes than that Arakrokra  wizard at all levels.

Quote from Masterofki >> 

My best guess is wotc thought stunning strike was so overpowered they needed to cut back a bit but went too far.  It's the only thing that makes sense to me.  With one or two exceptions, ever notice how all the monk level 6 subclass features are all fairly weak?  I think they do that deliberately to rebalance stunning strike at level 5.

 If you mean in the UA, well, Elements kinda got the short end of the stick since its damage is kinda low, but at least the subclass is functional now; Shadow Step is still the same since it has always been good (even more so now that you can see in your own Darkness), so why change it? And Hand... rather than the short end of the stick, it wasn't even handed a stick to begin with; if the UA Stunning Strike is better or more useful than what the subclass offers at level 3 and 6, then the subclass is not worth it.

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Being an Unarmed Specialist allows a monk to increase the damage of an unarmed strike.

Except it doesn't in the case of these races, as the d4 is worse, which is part of the issue; the other is that the Monk's Martial Arts dice (and bonus attack) are intended to enable unarmed strikes to compete with weapon attacks, as it makes them equivalent to dual wielding shortswords with the two-weapon fighting style (or it would if not for the Nick weapon mastery).

But staying with the d4 damage dice to start would still make the d6 unarmed strike races "better" choices for early level Monks for the added boost, but that's that the kind of thing that we really want the game to move away from; we don't want "best" choices for anything, we want equally valid choices as much as is reasonably possible.

Quote from Haravikk >>

Quote from Ain_Undos >>

Being an Unarmed Specialist allows a monk to increase the damage of an unarmed strike.

Except it doesn't in the case of these races, as the d4 is worse, which is part of the issue; the other is that the Monk's Martial Arts dice (and bonus attack) are intended to enable unarmed strikes to compete with weapon attacks, as it makes them equivalent to dual wielding shortswords with the two-weapon fighting style (or it would if not for the Nick weapon mastery).

But staying with the d4 damage dice to start would still make the d6 unarmed strike races "better" choices for early level Monks for the added boost, but that's that the kind of thing that we really want the game to move away from; we don't want "best" choices for anything, we want equally valid choices as much as is reasonably possible.

 It does natural weapons aren’t unarmed strikes. They are Natural Weapons. Lol

Also choosing a Race that give you a better starting damage but nothing passed level five when your Monk damage our paces it equally valid. Do you want 1 more damage now or something that might be useful for the entire career of your Monk. Both are valid choices.