Even if monks got something like when they make an attack on their turn with an unarmed strike or monk weapon (simple weapons in UA6) their reach is increased by 5 feet, to reflect their maneuverability on the battlefield. Bugbears have long limbed trait so I don’t think it would be OP. Maybe I’m wrong. But not always having a reliable method of getting out of melee was a reason why so many liked the mobile feat in 5E for monks.
Subclasses help with it, in many cases, but I think the base class needs something.
I am not convinced about the solution of reach +5 feet, it could be useful but its use would only be partial. I think that a class like the monk's that has as its strong point its speed deserves a disengagement system that is as perfomrate as the rogue's. At least as far as I think.
The new Elemental monk is getting extra reach, Shadow Monk can use its Darkness to get out of melee without provoking AoO (no AoO if they can't see you), Drunken Master gets a free disengage with FoB, Astral gets extra reach, Sun Soul and Kensai get decent ranged options, and Open Hand used to get to take away enemy reaction using FoB (It is a travesty that they put a saving throw on this!). Only Mercy and Long Death don't have a skirmisher option build in at level 3.
But if it will shut up the complainers just give them Swashbuckler's "no AoO if I attacked you" feature.
I don't know if I'm the only one complaining here about this monk problem, but I think it's an important topic. What you listed are simply subclass features. A class by itself should be self-functioning and it should not be the subclass that always has to solve the class problem. If that were the case, it would only lead to having to find for each subclass a solution to the monk problem thus consuming a subclass feature that could be used for something else.
You say that, but it actually makes monk subclasses WAY more interesting and fun that most other classes.
Fighters you barely notice they have a subclass half of the time. Barbarians are a little better off as most of them use their subclass features every round, but none of them really change how the barbarian plays, they just stack a little bonus on top of what the barbarian already does. Ranger again doesn't really "feel" their subclass they all get their bonus damage feature at 3rd level half of which are almost identical. For Rogue, Swashbuckler and Mastermind play significantly differently, but all the others are pretty much the same. And Paladin subclasses generally see more impact in RP than in combat.
Whereas a Sun Soul Monk vs a Dunken Master Monk are really very different.
Or it doesn't cost one for just the dash, or the disengage. For a point you get the combo of both. When I see any of the "without an action" ideas I just see that stacking into nova round type things. But getting to dash past all the enemies without consequence and then still be able to flurry of blows (and toss a stunning strike in there) sounds like too much.
Why? Consider that monk already gets 50ft baseline movement speed and most combat maps are no bigger than 100 ft x 100 ft, there is very little value in using Step of the Wind to Dash even if it cost nothing at all. 90% of the time Step of the Wind is for Disengage, the Dash & Jump are generally for Out of Combat applications.
Even if monks got something like when they make an attack on their turn with an unarmed strike or monk weapon (simple weapons in UA6) their reach is increased by 5 feet, to reflect their maneuverability on the battlefield. Bugbears have long limbed trait so I don’t think it would be OP. Maybe I’m wrong. But not always having a reliable method of getting out of melee was a reason why so many liked the mobile feat in 5E for monks.
Subclasses help with it, in many cases, but I think the base class needs something.
I am not convinced about the solution of reach +5 feet, it could be useful but its use would only be partial. I think that a class like the monk's that has as its strong point its speed deserves a disengagement system that is as perfomrate as the rogue's. At least as far as I think.
The new Elemental monk is getting extra reach, Shadow Monk can use its Darkness to get out of melee without provoking AoO (no AoO if they can't see you), Drunken Master gets a free disengage with FoB, Astral gets extra reach, Sun Soul and Kensai get decent ranged options, and Open Hand used to get to take away enemy reaction using FoB (It is a travesty that they put a saving throw on this!). Only Mercy and Long Death don't have a skirmisher option build in at level 3.
But if it will shut up the complainers just give them Swashbuckler's "no AoO if I attacked you" feature.
I don't know if I'm the only one complaining here about this monk problem, but I think it's an important topic. What you listed are simply subclass features. A class by itself should be self-functioning and it should not be the subclass that always has to solve the class problem. If that were the case, it would only lead to having to find for each subclass a solution to the monk problem thus consuming a subclass feature that could be used for something else.
You say that, but it actually makes monk subclasses WAY more interesting and fun that most other classes.
Fighters you barely notice they have a subclass half of the time. Barbarians are a little better off as most of them use their subclass features every round, but none of them really change how the barbarian plays, they just stack a little bonus on top of what the barbarian already does. Ranger again doesn't really "feel" their subclass they all get their bonus damage feature at 3rd level half of which are almost identical. For Rogue, Swashbuckler and Mastermind play significantly differently, but all the others are pretty much the same. And Paladin subclasses generally see more impact in RP than in combat.
Whereas a Sun Soul Monk vs a Dunken Master Monk are really very different.
I agree that the features that help alleviate the issue make the subclasses more interesting. And if Mercy and Long Death had similar flavorful features that would be nice.
Or it doesn't cost one for just the dash, or the disengage. For a point you get the combo of both. When I see any of the "without an action" ideas I just see that stacking into nova round type things. But getting to dash past all the enemies without consequence and then still be able to flurry of blows (and toss a stunning strike in there) sounds like too much.
You have to understand that the cost is still 2 Ki/D points, and for the amount is already too much given how dependent the monk is on Ki/D points, without these it is difficult for the monk to get into the game. Especially since it is a skirmish class and so in order not to die too early it has to move away from the melee every end of its turn. It should be thought that the monk has fewer hit points than the rogue being the monk DEX/WIS.
Or it doesn't cost one for just the dash, or the disengage. For a point you get the combo of both. When I see any of the "without an action" ideas I just see that stacking into nova round type things. But getting to dash past all the enemies without consequence and then still be able to flurry of blows (and toss a stunning strike in there) sounds like too much.
Why? Consider that monk already gets 50ft baseline movement speed and most combat maps are no bigger than 100 ft x 100 ft, there is very little value in using Step of the Wind to Dash even if it cost nothing at all. 90% of the time Step of the Wind is for Disengage, the Dash & Jump are generally for Out of Combat applications.
This depends on the DM's play style, but indeed there is also this problem. Very often the fights are in limited spaces, and a large movement does not mean much.
It should be thought that the monk has fewer hit points than the rogue being the monk DEX/WIS.
???? Rogue has the same hit points as monk. Who are you playing with that builds a rogue with +3 or +4 constitution? Rogues want strong secondary stats (Wisdom, Intelligence and/or Charisma) to support their skills.
Exactly, it is a problem of bonus action clogging and unrestrained use of resources. This will become even more evident with the Weapon Mastey and NICK feture. Every class that develops with two weapons in some way will try to use NICK to optimize its bonus action, and the monk is surely the class that needs it most.
Let's do a little math here, assuming Level 5 (so second attack for martials) and +5 to attacking stat...
A d12 two-hander will do 12-34 damage.
A character using two d6 weapons, one with Nick (assuming Two-Weapon Fighting style), will do...18-33 damage. You could bump that up with Dual Wielder, a d8 versatile main weapon, and the Flex mastery to 18-41 damage.
Meanwhile, a Monk using its two unarmed attacks plus bonus strike does 18-39 damage, with the option to bump that up to 24-52 for one Discipline point.
It's also worth pointing out that Monk is built with the consideration that it will be using its bonus action every turn, and so Stunning Strike and many subclass features either work in conjunction with the Attack action (e.g. the Ascendant Dragon's breath attack) or Flurry of Blows (e.g. Mercy's Hands of Healing/Harm) or require only one action/bonus action to activate (e.g. Astral Self's features). So for a Monk, their bonus strike/Flurry of Blows already is the optimized choice for their bonus action.
And again you ignore the other issue this presents. Monks are not frontline fighters. If they choose to disengage or dodge they lose 1/3 to 1/2 their damage. If they stay they don’t have the hit die or AC (unless they use all of their ASI’s to increase Dex and Wis) to last very long. It’s why some have been asking for some sort of defensive boost like Deflect Attack or an Uncanny Dodge-like ability.
It’s like if the Fighter’s Action Surge required a bonus action to activate and the 11th level Extra Attack (3rd attack) and 17th level Extra Attack (4th attack) were bonus actions. Something like “At 11th level when you take the Attack action you can use your bonus action to give yourself a third attack as part of that Attack Action. At 17th level you can use your bonus action to make a fourth attack as part of the Attack action” I know this is a bit much but you get my point if half the fighters damage was stuck behind using their BA along with other class and subclass features
It's telling that rather than coming up with new and interesting ideas to expand the Monk's skillset and versatility and play off of their strengths, a lot of "ideas" are just wanting them to be able to spam combat abilities without limitation or cost.
What are the monk’s strengths, exactly? How does it contribute meaningfully to combat? Right now, there’s only one, and it’s stunning strike.
No matter how much you insist otherwise, Monks do solid damage with a combination of their regular attack and unarmed strike, even ignoring boosts they may receive from subclasses. This, alongside the control options like Stunning Strike and others from their subclasses, is what defines their role in combat—they don't need to do the same amount of damage as a Fighter to be useful (even if they can out-damage a Fighter on most turns). They are not useless whenever they aren't spamming Flurry of Blows every turn. The creators of the game know this because they can do simple math, no matter how much some YouTuber claims they're weak, and that is why the Monk isn't going to get to do more damage than every martial every single turn without resource cost as some people think they should be able to do.
Fighter 5th level :
2x(1d10+4) + (1d4+4)) x0.65 = 16.575 / 28.925 AS
5 turns: 16.575 x4 +28.925 = 95.225
10 turns: 16.575 x9 + 28.925 = 178.1
15 turns: 16.575 x14 + 28.925 = 260.975
Monk 5th level :
3x(1d8+4) x0.65 = 16.575 / 22.1 FoB
5 turns: 22.1 x5 = 110.5
10 turns: 22.1 x5 + 16.575 x5 = 193.375
15 turns: 21.5 x5 + 16.757 x10 = 276.25
Effectively the monk is lightly over statistically if it used its Ki/D points solely for FoB, although let's be honest, that will never be the case. The calculation shown is not real. Then one should count that the fighter is the specialist in using the Weapon Mastery feature and Fighting styles. If we also take these into account the slight advantage the monk has is as good as lost. To compare 5th level monk is almost cheating. You could say it is at the peak among classes at 5th level, but from here on the decline begins.
If you don't feel the same way, that's fine. You think as you like, I think my way.
It should be thought that the monk has fewer hit points than the rogue being the monk DEX/WIS.
???? Rogue has the same hit points as monk. Who are you playing with that builds a rogue with +3 or +4 constitution? Rogues want strong secondary stats (Wisdom, Intelligence and/or Charisma) to support their skills.
This is their choice, but one they can afford without much trouble since their disengagement system is very efficient, and can easily be efficient even with ranged weapons.
It should be thought that the monk has fewer hit points than the rogue being the monk DEX/WIS.
???? Rogue has the same hit points as monk. Who are you playing with that builds a rogue with +3 or +4 constitution? Rogues want strong secondary stats (Wisdom, Intelligence and/or Charisma) to support their skills.
rogue has no need to melee, it also has uncanny dodge, and it has hide. It can do full damage from hand xbow or shortbow range. It doesnt need to use its BA on anything except cunning action.
Rogue does not 'need' strong secondary stats, a player can focus on it if they want, but they have reliable talent and expertise. They have tons of extra stats, so they can use it as they see fit, thats not the same as 'needing' extra stats. everyone else 'needs' those stats for the same reasons.
Or it doesn't cost one for just the dash, or the disengage. For a point you get the combo of both. When I see any of the "without an action" ideas I just see that stacking into nova round type things. But getting to dash past all the enemies without consequence and then still be able to flurry of blows (and toss a stunning strike in there) sounds like too much.
monk is actually incapable of 'nova' their highest dps is basically poor normal dps for other classes. Getting to dash past enemies without a consequence is not unique. Zephyr strike, ashadalon's stride, misty step, fly etc.
And monk struggles with ki.
A ranged character can hit multiple enemies while doing nothing, it might feel awesome, but its not actually mathematically great
as you said not counting fighting styles and an extra feat is causing things to look off. gwm gives bonus crit damage and pb damage per round. GWM gives .8-1 damage per hit depending on weapon. The extra feat even as an asi = +1 damage and +5% accuracy (basically damage)
Also a lvl 5 monk literally can't Use Fob more than 5 times per short rest. And every short rest the monk takes = 1 action surge for fighter.
And Monk has Patient Defense, and Stunning Strike, should we not think of monk as having much more HP than we see on their character sheet too?
Should we also calculate Second wind of the fighter at this point, or the damage resistance of the barbarian, Uncanny Dodge of the rogue, healing spells of other classes, etc.?
And Monk has Patient Defense, and Stunning Strike, should we not think of monk as having much more HP than we see on their character sheet too?
Should we also calculate Second wind of the fighter at this point, or the damage resistance of the barbarian, Uncanny Dodge of the rogue, healing spells of other classes, etc.?
Yes. If you want to argue about the survivability of different classes you do need to include all their class features not just their hit die. It's foolish to argue a Fighter has the same survivability as a Paladin when Paladin has ~4x more healing that Fighter does and access to a spell that gives them +2AC, or that Fighter has almost the same survivability as a barbarian when the latter can cut all damage they take in half.
And Monk has Patient Defense, and Stunning Strike, should we not think of monk as having much more HP than we see on their character sheet too?
Should we also calculate Second wind of the fighter at this point, or the damage resistance of the barbarian, Uncanny Dodge of the rogue, healing spells of other classes, etc.?
Yes. If you want to argue about the survivability of different classes you do need to include all their class features not just their hit die. It's foolish to argue a Fighter has the same survivability as a Paladin when Paladin has ~4x more healing that Fighter does and access to a spell that gives them +2AC, or that Fighter has almost the same survivability as a barbarian when the latter can cut all damage they take in half.
This seems legitimate. So where would you put the monk in terms of survivability?
It's telling that rather than coming up with new and interesting ideas to expand the Monk's skillset and versatility and play off of their strengths, a lot of "ideas" are just wanting them to be able to spam combat abilities without limitation or cost.
What are the monk’s strengths, exactly? How does it contribute meaningfully to combat? Right now, there’s only one, and it’s stunning strike.
No matter how much you insist otherwise, Monks do solid damage with a combination of their regular attack and unarmed strike, even ignoring boosts they may receive from subclasses. This, alongside the control options like Stunning Strike and others from their subclasses, is what defines their role in combat—they don't need to do the same amount of damage as a Fighter to be useful (even if they can out-damage a Fighter on most turns). They are not useless whenever they aren't spamming Flurry of Blows every turn. The creators of the game know this because they can do simple math, no matter how much some YouTuber claims they're weak, and that is why the Monk isn't going to get to do more damage than every martial every single turn without resource cost as some people think they should be able to do.
I’m certain I’ve been over this before. In order to even compete with a fighter’s normal turn of damage - using the more common 2d6 two handed weapon, as opposed to the d12 - a monk must expend a ki point and their bonus action, while having less hp, less AC, and crippling their ability to freely escape melee. In order to not need step of the wind to escape, they must gamble on an opponent’s CON save and spend another ki point to stun.
I’ve also pointed out that subclasses don’t give any meaningful damage boost. I’ve also stated that I don’t want monk to outclass fighter. I want them to be equally useful and viable.
If you’re just going to complain about and strawman other people’s views apparently to do nothing other than cause irritation I’ll just ignore you.
In my games, Monks in the UA, RAW, would rate pretty high. Higher than a Druid, higher than a Ranger, way higher than a Rogue.
Wizards are tough to call, because it depends on the spell choices, but by and large, they have the second highest in my games, followed immediately by fighters. Monk would be top seven for sure.
Highest survivability in my games is always on the folks who can all on the Gods, though. Not sure why -- my gods are generally uncaring manifestations of concepts, not people-like beings. New setting will change all of that calculus, butmy last few, yeah -- for survivability, that is.
Combat power, role playing flexibility, and other aspects also factor in, though, to looking at a class as a whole. No single thing is more important.
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Exactly, it is a problem of bonus action clogging and unrestrained use of resources. This will become even more evident with the Weapon Mastey and NICK feture. Every class that develops with two weapons in some way will try to use NICK to optimize its bonus action, and the monk is surely the class that needs it most.
Let's do a little math here, assuming Level 5 (so second attack for martials) and +5 to attacking stat...
A d12 two-hander will do 12-34 damage.
A character using two d6 weapons, one with Nick (assuming Two-Weapon Fighting style), will do...18-33 damage. You could bump that up with Dual Wielder, a d8 versatile main weapon, and the Flex mastery to 18-41 damage.
Meanwhile, a Monk using its two unarmed attacks plus bonus strike does 18-39 damage, with the option to bump that up to 24-52 for one Discipline point.
It's also worth pointing out that Monk is built with the consideration that it will be using its bonus action every turn, and so Stunning Strike and many subclass features either work in conjunction with the Attack action (e.g. the Ascendant Dragon's breath attack) or Flurry of Blows (e.g. Mercy's Hands of Healing/Harm) or require only one action/bonus action to activate (e.g. Astral Self's features). So for a Monk, their bonus strike/Flurry of Blows already is the optimized choice for their bonus action.
you are probably eyeballing it, and thinking monk does good damage, it does not. from 5+ monk goes from being slightly low, to being abysmal.
you are also not using the better weapon combos and feats, as well as ignoring accuracy.
PAM+gwf+graze is better damage
and, you can make 4 attacks at level 5 by throwing hatchets/using two weapons and PAM
so let's take barbarian, they will have +2 damage per hit at 5, and they will have advantage on attacks. advantage, assuming baseline 65% hit rate, becomes 87.5 hit rate, which essentially becomes 12% increase in damage (lets not even count 3d6 berserk)
the fighter will have an extra feat at lvl 5, so has loads of options
so the fighter can take twf, pam, DW.
and use flex nick, and graze
(d10+4)flex+(d6+4)nick+(d10+4)(pole)+(d4+4)(pam)
or they can do archery+crossbow+elven acc
and have 98% accuracy with vex(versus 65%) and 14% crit rate. (or 28% if they are champions)
or they can use pam+gwf+gwm+graze
for 2d6(+1.3gwf)+4+d10(.8gwf)+4+d4(.5gwf)+4+3(pb)
etc.
you can get more complete damage simulations via ludvic's sheet calc, or any dice, if you program it.
short version is monks average fob damage is 22, and its lower than fighters gwf+gwm+pam+graze which is 27, and not even their optimal damage build at 5.
this doesnt even count the fact that fighter can surge, and its monk's peak efficiency, while fighter/barb/paladin and other clases doesnt even really take off until after that
then there is the fact a lvl 5 monk can only use FOB five times per SR, and only if they never use any other Ki. note that the fighter will get action surge for every SR. And the monk is less survivable in melee, while doing less damage. (lower mitigation, lower hp max, lower hp recovery)
and this not only the case for fighter, its basically true for every class currently.
In my games, Monks in the UA, RAW, would rate pretty high. Higher than a Druid, higher than a Ranger, way higher than a Rogue.
Wizards are tough to call, because it depends on the spell choices, but by and large, they have the second highest in my games, followed immediately by fighters. Monk would be top seven for sure.
Highest survivability in my games is always on the folks who can all on the Gods, though. Not sure why -- my gods are generally uncaring manifestations of concepts, not people-like beings. New setting will change all of that calculus, butmy last few, yeah -- for survivability, that is.
Combat power, role playing flexibility, and other aspects also factor in, though, to looking at a class as a whole. No single thing is more important.
monk is not mechanically stronger then a druid or a ranger becuase of spells. unless someone who doesn't know how to use their spells is playing one.
they are easily more powerful in combat and also in utility.
rogue dpr wise are closer to the monk but have much better utility and the new cunning strike puts them over the top.
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You say that, but it actually makes monk subclasses WAY more interesting and fun that most other classes.
Fighters you barely notice they have a subclass half of the time. Barbarians are a little better off as most of them use their subclass features every round, but none of them really change how the barbarian plays, they just stack a little bonus on top of what the barbarian already does. Ranger again doesn't really "feel" their subclass they all get their bonus damage feature at 3rd level half of which are almost identical. For Rogue, Swashbuckler and Mastermind play significantly differently, but all the others are pretty much the same. And Paladin subclasses generally see more impact in RP than in combat.
Whereas a Sun Soul Monk vs a Dunken Master Monk are really very different.
Why? Consider that monk already gets 50ft baseline movement speed and most combat maps are no bigger than 100 ft x 100 ft, there is very little value in using Step of the Wind to Dash even if it cost nothing at all. 90% of the time Step of the Wind is for Disengage, the Dash & Jump are generally for Out of Combat applications.
I agree that the features that help alleviate the issue make the subclasses more interesting. And if Mercy and Long Death had similar flavorful features that would be nice.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
You have to understand that the cost is still 2 Ki/D points, and for the amount is already too much given how dependent the monk is on Ki/D points, without these it is difficult for the monk to get into the game. Especially since it is a skirmish class and so in order not to die too early it has to move away from the melee every end of its turn. It should be thought that the monk has fewer hit points than the rogue being the monk DEX/WIS.
This depends on the DM's play style, but indeed there is also this problem. Very often the fights are in limited spaces, and a large movement does not mean much.
???? Rogue has the same hit points as monk. Who are you playing with that builds a rogue with +3 or +4 constitution? Rogues want strong secondary stats (Wisdom, Intelligence and/or Charisma) to support their skills.
And again you ignore the other issue this presents. Monks are not frontline fighters. If they choose to disengage or dodge they lose 1/3 to 1/2 their damage. If they stay they don’t have the hit die or AC (unless they use all of their ASI’s to increase Dex and Wis) to last very long. It’s why some have been asking for some sort of defensive boost like Deflect Attack or an Uncanny Dodge-like ability.
It’s like if the Fighter’s Action Surge required a bonus action to activate and the 11th level Extra Attack (3rd attack) and 17th level Extra Attack (4th attack) were bonus actions. Something like “At 11th level when you take the Attack action you can use your bonus action to give yourself a third attack as part of that Attack Action. At 17th level you can use your bonus action to make a fourth attack as part of the Attack action” I know this is a bit much but you get my point if half the fighters damage was stuck behind using their BA along with other class and subclass features
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Fighter 5th level :
2x(1d10+4) + (1d4+4)) x0.65 = 16.575 / 28.925 AS
5 turns: 16.575 x4 +28.925 = 95.225
10 turns: 16.575 x9 + 28.925 = 178.1
15 turns: 16.575 x14 + 28.925 = 260.975
Monk 5th level :
3x(1d8+4) x0.65 = 16.575 / 22.1 FoB
5 turns: 22.1 x5 = 110.5
10 turns: 22.1 x5 + 16.575 x5 = 193.375
15 turns: 21.5 x5 + 16.757 x10 = 276.25
Effectively the monk is lightly over statistically if it used its Ki/D points solely for FoB, although let's be honest, that will never be the case. The calculation shown is not real. Then one should count that the fighter is the specialist in using the Weapon Mastery feature and Fighting styles. If we also take these into account the slight advantage the monk has is as good as lost. To compare 5th level monk is almost cheating. You could say it is at the peak among classes at 5th level, but from here on the decline begins.
If you don't feel the same way, that's fine. You think as you like, I think my way.
This is their choice, but one they can afford without much trouble since their disengagement system is very efficient, and can easily be efficient even with ranged weapons.
rogue has no need to melee, it also has uncanny dodge, and it has hide. It can do full damage from hand xbow or shortbow range. It doesnt need to use its BA on anything except cunning action.
Rogue does not 'need' strong secondary stats, a player can focus on it if they want, but they have reliable talent and expertise. They have tons of extra stats, so they can use it as they see fit, thats not the same as 'needing' extra stats. everyone else 'needs' those stats for the same reasons.
monk is actually incapable of 'nova' their highest dps is basically poor normal dps for other classes. Getting to dash past enemies without a consequence is not unique. Zephyr strike, ashadalon's stride, misty step, fly etc.
And monk struggles with ki.
A ranged character can hit multiple enemies while doing nothing, it might feel awesome, but its not actually mathematically great
And Monk has Patient Defense, and Stunning Strike, should we not think of monk as having much more HP than we see on their character sheet too?
as you said not counting fighting styles and an extra feat is causing things to look off. gwm gives bonus crit damage and pb damage per round. GWM gives .8-1 damage per hit depending on weapon. The extra feat even as an asi = +1 damage and +5% accuracy (basically damage)
Also a lvl 5 monk literally can't Use Fob more than 5 times per short rest. And every short rest the monk takes = 1 action surge for fighter.
Should we also calculate Second wind of the fighter at this point, or the damage resistance of the barbarian, Uncanny Dodge of the rogue, healing spells of other classes, etc.?
Yes. If you want to argue about the survivability of different classes you do need to include all their class features not just their hit die. It's foolish to argue a Fighter has the same survivability as a Paladin when Paladin has ~4x more healing that Fighter does and access to a spell that gives them +2AC, or that Fighter has almost the same survivability as a barbarian when the latter can cut all damage they take in half.
This seems legitimate. So where would you put the monk in terms of survivability?
I’m certain I’ve been over this before. In order to even compete with a fighter’s normal turn of damage - using the more common 2d6 two handed weapon, as opposed to the d12 - a monk must expend a ki point and their bonus action, while having less hp, less AC, and crippling their ability to freely escape melee. In order to not need step of the wind to escape, they must gamble on an opponent’s CON save and spend another ki point to stun.
I’ve also pointed out that subclasses don’t give any meaningful damage boost. I’ve also stated that I don’t want monk to outclass fighter. I want them to be equally useful and viable.
If you’re just going to complain about and strawman other people’s views apparently to do nothing other than cause irritation I’ll just ignore you.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
In my games, Monks in the UA, RAW, would rate pretty high. Higher than a Druid, higher than a Ranger, way higher than a Rogue.
Wizards are tough to call, because it depends on the spell choices, but by and large, they have the second highest in my games, followed immediately by fighters. Monk would be top seven for sure.
Highest survivability in my games is always on the folks who can all on the Gods, though. Not sure why -- my gods are generally uncaring manifestations of concepts, not people-like beings. New setting will change all of that calculus, butmy last few, yeah -- for survivability, that is.
Combat power, role playing flexibility, and other aspects also factor in, though, to looking at a class as a whole. No single thing is more important.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
you are probably eyeballing it, and thinking monk does good damage, it does not. from 5+ monk goes from being slightly low, to being abysmal.
you are also not using the better weapon combos and feats, as well as ignoring accuracy.
PAM+gwf+graze is better damage
and, you can make 4 attacks at level 5 by throwing hatchets/using two weapons and PAM
so let's take barbarian, they will have +2 damage per hit at 5, and they will have advantage on attacks. advantage, assuming baseline 65% hit rate, becomes 87.5 hit rate, which essentially becomes 12% increase in damage (lets not even count 3d6 berserk)
the fighter will have an extra feat at lvl 5, so has loads of options
so the fighter can take twf, pam, DW.
and use flex nick, and graze
(d10+4)flex+(d6+4)nick+(d10+4)(pole)+(d4+4)(pam)
or they can do archery+crossbow+elven acc
and have 98% accuracy with vex(versus 65%) and 14% crit rate. (or 28% if they are champions)
or they can use pam+gwf+gwm+graze
for 2d6(+1.3gwf)+4+d10(.8gwf)+4+d4(.5gwf)+4+3(pb)
etc.
you can get more complete damage simulations via ludvic's sheet calc, or any dice, if you program it.
short version is monks average fob damage is 22, and its lower than fighters gwf+gwm+pam+graze which is 27, and not even their optimal damage build at 5.
this doesnt even count the fact that fighter can surge, and its monk's peak efficiency, while fighter/barb/paladin and other clases doesnt even really take off until after that
then there is the fact a lvl 5 monk can only use FOB five times per SR, and only if they never use any other Ki. note that the fighter will get action surge for every SR. And the monk is less survivable in melee, while doing less damage. (lower mitigation, lower hp max, lower hp recovery)
and this not only the case for fighter, its basically true for every class currently.
monk is not mechanically stronger then a druid or a ranger becuase of spells. unless someone who doesn't know how to use their spells is playing one.
they are easily more powerful in combat and also in utility.
rogue dpr wise are closer to the monk but have much better utility and the new cunning strike puts them over the top.